TONGUES false teaching.

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S

Scribe

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The number given was 120
14These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
15And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)


1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

(If you're on a desert island alone with only the bible and no religious teaching, history, or other books to reference would you interpret 1-5 as including everyone in the room?)


And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

The devout men heard every man in our out tongue is the KJV way of saying "each of us" and not meaning "we only hear males"

New International Version
Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?

New Living Translation
and yet we hear them speaking in our own native languages!

English Standard Version
And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?

Berean Study Bible
How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language?

Berean Literal Bible
And how do we each hear our own language in which we were born?

King James Bible
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

The every man means "each one of us"

When Peter stands up with the eleven (they stood up with him) The speaking in tongues was over. Peter addressed them in the common language. Probably Aramaic.

Peter says that THIS IS THAT the Daughters are prophesying.. Dont you See!!! The Handmaidens are Prophesying!!!! THIS IS THAT.

17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’

We know that there is more to be fulfilled, the very last of the last days as seen in Revelation concerning the sun turned into darkness. As in many other prophecies about Jesus first coming and second coming together in the same passage.

We have the beginning of this prophesy starting here and it will culminate with the sun and moon details in the future but the Outpouring of the Spirit part started then and the ALL FLESH included gentiles but they did not know it until Cornelius house, what they did discover on this day is that it included WOMEN.

Y'all need to catch up with the program. It has been going on for 2000 years. Women are also called to minister in the power of the Holy Ghost. And many of them have been doing so since that day.

The good news is that God empowers women with His spirit, they speak in tongues, interpret, prophesy, and preach and teach the Bible and there is nothing those with bad hermeneutics can do about it. Absolutely nothing.

And they still have to love these women and accept them as sisters in the Lord or they are walking in darkness.
It is the same ALL 120 who were in one accord in one place (the 120) that were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost and ALL spoke in tongues. It is impossible to say that it was a subset of they who were all with one accord in one place without being guilty of inserting your own fantasy into the text. Something that Major says he does not do. But to redefine verse 1 as being only 12 would be a violation of his principles. You must not change the defined 120 who were in once accord to a lower number when reading verse 4 ALL ...began to speak in tongues. Not 12, not just 12 were in once accord, but ALL 120 were in one accord. And all 120 who were in one accord and in one place is still the subject of the ALL That were filled and began to speak in tongues. and it included the women who were part of the 120 and specifically pointed out in 1:14. Specifically pointed out twice. in 1:14 and also in 2:17,18
 

Major

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it actually says if there is none given that person is to speak quietly to themselves. It does not say IF there is not interpretation must be. Remember those who speak are to pray that they Interpret 1cor 14 says.
Aren't we saying the same thing???

Is there a need to disagree over the same thing being said????
 

Major

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It must be very frustrating for you to be amongst us.
I can see it in your posts.
It is NOT frustrating to be among born again believers.

It is however very, very disturbing to see people unable to read and grasp what is right in front of them for only one reason.....
They want to speak in tongues because that is what they like to do and it does not matter what the Bible says!

THAT is the troubling part!
 
Dec 21, 2020
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It is NOT frustrating to be among born again believers.

It is however very, very disturbing to see people unable to read and grasp what is right in front of them for only one reason.....
They want to speak in tongues because that is what they like to do and it does not matter what the Bible says!

THAT is the troubling part!
Here is what the Bible says:

1 Cor 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

I want to do what the Bible says. Why don't you?
 

Major

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It must be very frustrating for you to be amongst us.
I can see it in your posts.
To show the example of what I am troubled about is Post #660 where Scribe says women are absolutely to be pastors.

But what does the Bible say in 1 Timothy 3:1-2........
"
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach"

You see......to keep a denominational dogma of false teaching the Bible is completely rejected.

Does that give you any concern at all????
 

Major

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Here is what the Bible says:

1 Cor 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

I want to do what the Bible says. Why don't you?
You do realize that the Scripture does NOY support what you want it to say...right????

It is what is called a "CPMPARITIVE Scripture".

Read it for yourself my brother.......
"I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues".

Why are you making something simple so hard for yourself. Paul did not say he wanted us to speak in tongues.

" I would that ye all spake with tongues". = To avoid danger of misunderstanding or misrepresentation the Apostle emphatically asserts here that the error which he is combating is the undue exaltation of the gift of tongues to the depreciation of other gifts.
Source: Elliots Commentary of the Bible.


Note this as well.....because of the words you posted then Tongues must therefore mean languages, not ecstatic, unintelligible rhapsodie for Paul could never "wish" for the latter in their behalf.
 

Major

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Well our Pentecostal friends are to be likened to the seeds that were sown and fell in among the thorns. They are not able to grow to fruition because of the thorns that encumber the ground in which they are planted.

Show forth the truth because there are many who look into the forums that never participate. They may be open to the truth of Gods word even if those who claim to know it will not.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
A professor in seminary said to us all something about 40 years ago that has stuck with me all these years and has helped to to understand why some people can not grow and learn and it was.......

"People like what they know, and we know what we like. We are all stubborn to one degree or another and when we learn what we like, even if it is wrong, we are not going to reject it for the truth, even when the truth is the Word of God"!
 

Major

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I am sure that your interpretations were rejected where ever you have posted them if they are anything like what you have tried to present on this site. You should probably go to bible college if you really want to learn the bible because you're so far departed from sound heremeneutics that frankly it is bizarre and you don't seem to blush at the flagrant errors. You need some professors that you will respect to correct you since you do not seem able to comprehend things on your own.

I am going to assume that you really want to know the bible. You don't have to resort to dishonest interpretation in order to believe that tongues are not for today. You can choose that position without wrangling scriptures beyond recognition to support your opinions.
Unbelievable!

Listen Mr. Scribe.....you be well my friend and stay safe. There is nothing I seem to be able to do for you as when you reject the Word of God, there is nothing left.

Good bye!
 

Major

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From my understanding, Major is correct on some things he believes, and dead wrong on others.

The "upper room" is where the apostles "abode" (Acts 1:13). They lived there. In that culture, women would not be permitted into the living quarters of men they were not related to. Also, houses in Jerusalem were small. The upper room would not have been large enough for 120 people to congregate. The place where they "all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women" (Acts 1:14) would have been the Temple (Luke 24:53).

Likewise, on the day of Pentecost, the place where "they were all with one accord in one place" (Acts 2:1) would have been the Temple. That is where people met and prayed. The "they" in that verse refers back to Acts 1:26: "..he [Matthias] was numbered with the eleven apostles". So the twelve were with one accord in the Temple. The sound from heaven of a rushing mighty wind filled all the house (the Temple) where they (the twelve) were sitting (Acts 2:2). Everyone would have heard the sound. The cloven tongues as of fire appeared to them (the twelve) and sat upon each of them (the twelve) (Acts 2:3). And they (the twelve) were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues (Acts 2:4). At the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit, only the twelve received, and only the twelve spoke in tongues. Major's comments in an earlier post about all the ones who spoke were Galilean was correct. The twelve were from Galilee.

In Acts 2, there is not any information as to whether anyone else spoke in tongues or not. We do know that 3000 people believed after hearing Peter's sermon (Acts 2:41), but the Bible simply does not say whether they spoke in tongues or not.

So I do agree with Major that only the twelve received the initial ourpouring of the gift of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and that only the twelve initially spoke in tongues.

But I COMPLETELY disagree with him in his understanding of 1 Cor 12-14, with his belief that the "sign gifts" ceased when we "got the completed Bible", and his belief that women were not permitted to speak in tongues. God wants ALL Christians to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5, 37, 39). The manifestation of the spirit is given to EVERY Christian (1 Cor 12:7).

I think that earlier in this thread someone asked why we should speak in tongues, what is it good for.

1) God wants us to do it. (1 Cor 14:5)
2) It edifies you. (1 Cor 14:4; Jude 20)
3) When spoken aloud in the church and interpreted, it edifies the church. (1 Cor 14:5)
4) You are speaking to God divine secrets. (1 Cor 14:2)
5) It is prayer in the Spirit. (1 Cor 14:14-15)
6) When you speak in tongues, you are giving thanks well. (1 Cor 14:17)

I speak in tongues, and will continue to do so until I die or until Jesus Christ returns, whichever comes first :)
I appreciate your comment. As I have said many times......if you want to speak in tongues then DO IT. But you can not do it and say that the Bible tells you to do so. That is all I have been saying.

Please take note that I DID NOT have anything to do with the Greek Grammer that Paul wrote with to produce 1 Corth. 13:8-10 where Paul said that Tongues, prophecy and knowledge would CEASE when the "Perfect" comes".

I just accept the Greek as I have been taught that the PERFECT is a neuter form of the feminine and can only refer to a thing which can only be the Bible. Since Jesus is "Masculine" the perfect can not be Him. YES....He is perfect but He is not the CONTEXT of that Scripture.

If anyone does not agree......why in the world do you just say "I do not agree with the Bible or the Greek Grammar and stop the arguing.
 

Major

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It might be the 108 were not identified speakers as Luke said in verse 14 "But Peter, standing up with the eleven" + the testimony of those "devout men verse 5 and how they heard "every man" v. 6 and 8 excluding the women. The Joel prophecy in Acts 2 is at it's own beginning and this not justify women speaking in the other tongues (Language).
Agreed!

Now why do you think that you and I grasp this and some do not?????
 

Major

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The scripture you provided does not say that the women spoke in tongues. If does say that at a future time Jewish women will prophecy and Jewish men will see visions. This will be at the fulfillment of Joel 2 and will include wonders in the earth and in heaven. Signs that were not present at Pentecost.

You cry hermeneutics yet take no care to actually read what is written in the scripture. You have a predetermined conclusion that you will cite even if the scriptures teach the direct opposite.

Good luck with that theology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Mr. Scribe posts Scripture and then weaves his opinions around what he wishes those Scriptures said.
 
Dec 21, 2020
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You do realize that the Scripture does NOY support what you want it to say...right????

It is what is called a "CPMPARITIVE Scripture".

Read it for yourself my brother.......
"I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues".
Don't forget the rest of the verse:

1 Cor 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Why are you making something simple so hard for yourself. Paul did not say he wanted us to speak in tongues.

" I would that ye all spake with tongues". = To avoid danger of misunderstanding or misrepresentation the Apostle emphatically asserts here that the error which he is combating is the undue exaltation of the gift of tongues to the depreciation of other gifts.
Source: Elliots Commentary of the Bible.

Sorry, Major. Paul explicitly states "I would that ye all spake with tongues", but you turn right around and claim "Paul did not say he wanted us to speak in tongues." Do you see the problem?


Commentaries are a dime a dozen. It's easy to find a commentary to back up almost any position you hold.

Note this as well.....because of the words you posted then Tongues must therefore mean languages, not ecstatic, unintelligible rhapsodie for Paul could never "wish" for the latter in their behalf.
Tongues most certainly are languages. But because the person speaking does not understand what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2), and generally speaking, all the members of a church all speak the same language, so nobody will understand, the language probably will be unintelligible to them. That's why when tongues are spoken aloud in the church, they must be interpreted. You use the words "ecstatic" and "rhapsodie" (sic) because they are belittling terms and you do not believe speaking in tongues is legit.
 
Dec 21, 2020
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"People like what they know, and we know what we like. We are all stubborn to one degree or another and when we learn what we like, even if it is wrong, we are not going to reject it for the truth, even when the truth is the Word of God"!
Heed those words, Major.
 

Major

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Dec 12, 2020
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I am sure that your interpretations were rejected where ever you have posted them if they are anything like what you have tried to present on this site. You should probably go to bible college if you really want to learn the bible because you're so far departed from sound heremeneutics that frankly it is bizarre and you don't seem to blush at the flagrant errors. You need some professors that you will respect to correct you since you do not seem able to comprehend things on your own.

I am going to assume that you really want to know the bible. You don't have to resort to dishonest interpretation in order to believe that tongues are not for today. You can choose that position without wrangling scriptures beyond recognition to support your opinions.[/QUOTE

I wish I could say that your comments surprised me......but in a short time I have come to realize that it is expected from you.

May I suggest and recommend a book written by Jonathan Edwards’ to you. It is the classic Charity and Its Fruits. I believe it may be of help to you.

In this book, Edwards included a chapter on how we are to respond to sarcastic and mean spirited comments from others. There, he makes the biblical point that such attacks should not surprise us; rather, we should expect them:
"Men that have their spirits heated and enraged and rising in bitter resentment when they are injured act as if they thought some strange thing had happened to them. Whereas they are very foolish in so thinking for it is no strange thing at all but only what was to be expected in a world like this. They therefore do not act wisely that allow their spirits to be ruffled by the injuries they suffer."​
Edwards’ point is that if the Christian expects to be slandered and spoken down to when the truth is exposed but he keeps his eyes focused on God when it happens, and he will not be depressed over it.

I am not depressed over your comments. Saddened, YES that you as a Christian would say them to another Christian.
 

Major

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Don't forget the rest of the verse:

1 Cor 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


Sorry, Major. Paul explicitly states "I would that ye all spake with tongues", but you turn right around and claim "Paul did not say he wanted us to speak in tongues." Do you see the problem?

Commentaries are a dime a dozen. It's easy to find a commentary to back up almost any position you hold.


Tongues most certainly are languages. But because the person speaking does not understand what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2), and generally speaking, all the members of a church all speak the same language, so nobody will understand, the language probably will be unintelligible to them. That's why when tongues are spoken aloud in the church, they must be interpreted. You use the words "ecstatic" and "rhapsodie" (sic) because they are belittling terms and you do not believe speaking in tongues is legit.
You said...........
"That's why when tongues are spoken aloud in the church, they must be interpreted. You use the words "ecstatic" and "rhapsodie" (sic) because they are belittling terms and you do not believe speaking in tongues is legit.

No sir. I use those terms because what is said that I have witnessed are NOT interpreted and they are then not languages but sounds that are uttered and not words spoken.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
It is NOT frustrating to be among born again believers.

It is however very, very disturbing to see people unable to read and grasp what is right in front of them for only one reason.....
They want to speak in tongues because that is what they like to do and it does not matter what the Bible says!

THAT is the troubling part!
Give yourself a break. The opposing view has even more reasons to be suspicious of those that seem willing to attempt unorthodox methods of interpretation never before heard of to try and convince yourselves that you are excused from DESIRING spiritual gifts.

YOU DON"T WANT TO SPEAK IN TONGUES because you think it is embarrassing and no matter what the bible says you will find a way to make it say that it is not for today. It is not enough for you to say some speak in tongues and some don't, because you don't want anyone to be able to do so today or it might mean you should be asking for it and YOU DON'T WANT to speak in tongues.

You dont want to ask for it. YOU DON"T WANT IT. But you don't want to feel bad about not wanting it or admit that you would be embarrassed to speak in tongues in a church if there was an interpreter. So you conclude it is not for today. That gets you off the hook of feeling bad that YOU DO NOT DESIRE spiritual gifts.

We must ask you, "If the Holy Spirit was giving the church the same gifts as He did in the first century would you desire them?" Or "are you glad that the Holy Spirit is not doing that today?"

If someone can read about them in the Bible and say "whew... I am sure glad He is not doing that any longer" then I can guarantee you they don't have the heart of God on this matter.

So you think we can't see the logic of your illogical interpretations and are frustrated? Get a better hermeneutic. What you have presented so far would not be accepted by non penetecostals.
 

Major

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Heed those words, Major.
I always have brother. It is one of the reasons I left the Pentecostal faith many years ago. I was a good soldier and followed the teachings given to me. Then one day I was led to actually READ the Bible instead of the Pentecostal denominational teachings and the world changed for me.
 

Major

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Give yourself a break. The opposing view has even more reasons to be suspicious of those that seem willing to attempt unorthodox methods of interpretation never before heard of to try and convince yourselves that you are excused from DESIRING spiritual gifts.

YOU DON"T WANT TO SPEAK IN TONGUES because you think it is embarrassing and no matter what the bible says you will find a way to make it say that it is not for today. It is not enough for you to say some speak in tongues and some don't, because you don't want anyone to be able to do so today or it might mean you should be asking for it and YOU DON'T WANT to speak in tongues.

You dont want to ask for it. YOU DON"T WANT IT. But you don't want to feel bad about not wanting it or admit that you would be embarrassed to speak in tongues in a church if there was an interpreter. So you conclude it is not for today. That gets you off the hook of feeling bad that YOU DO NOT DESIRE spiritual gifts.

We must ask you, "If the Holy Spirit was giving the church the same gifts as He did in the first century would you desire them?" Or "are you glad that the Holy Spirit is not doing that today?"

If someone can read about them in the Bible and say "whew... I am sure glad He is not doing that any longer" then I can guarantee you they don't have the heart of God on this matter.

So you think we can't see the logic of your illogical interpretations and are frustrated? Get a better hermeneutic. What you have presented so far would not be accepted by non penetecostals.
I wish I could say that your comments surprised me......but in a short time I have come to realize that it is expected from you.

May I suggest and recommend a book written by Jonathan Edwards’ to you. It is the classic Charity and Its Fruits. I believe it may be of help to you.

In this book, Edwards included a chapter on how we are to respond to sarcastic and mean spirited comments from others. There, he makes the biblical point that such attacks should not surprise us; rather, we should expect them:
"Men that have their spirits heated and enraged and rising in bitter resentment when they are injured act as if they thought some strange thing had happened to them. Whereas they are very foolish in so thinking for it is no strange thing at all but only what was to be expected in a world like this. They therefore do not act wisely that allow their spirits to be ruffled by the injuries they suffer."
Edwards’ point is that if the Christian expects to be slandered and spoken down to when the truth is exposed but he keeps his eyes focused on God when it happens, and he will not be depressed over it.

I am not depressed over your comments. Saddened, YES that you as a Christian would say them to another Christian.
 
Dec 21, 2020
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I appreciate your comment. As I have said many times......if you want to speak in tongues then DO IT. But you can not do it and say that the Bible tells you to do so. That is all I have been saying.
That is flatly not true.

1 Cor 14:5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Please take note that I DID NOT have anything to do with the Greek Grammer that Paul wrote with to produce 1 Corth. 13:8-10 where Paul said that Tongues, prophecy and knowledge would CEASE when the "Perfect" comes".

I just accept the Greek as I have been taught that the PERFECT is a neuter form of the feminine and can only refer to a thing which can only be the Bible. Since Jesus is "Masculine" the perfect can not be Him. YES....He is perfect but He is not the CONTEXT of that Scripture.

If anyone does not agree......why in the world do you just say "I do not agree with the Bible or the Greek Grammar and stop the arguing.
Because we do agree with the Bible. Not agreeing with your assertion is not the same as not agreeing with the Bible. Not agreeing with what YOU have been taught is not the same as not agreeing with the Bible.

Yes, "to teleion" is neuter. It refers to "the completeness" or "that which is complete". You may insist that it's talking about the completed canon of scripture, but that does not mean you are right. The completeness refers to the end, when all things are fulfilled. Tongues, prophecy, and knowledge (specifically the manifestation of "word of knowledge") exist today, and will exist until the end.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
I wish I could say that your comments surprised me......but in a short time I have come to realize that it is expected from you.

May I suggest and recommend a book written by Jonathan Edwards’ to you. It is the classic Charity and Its Fruits. I believe it may be of help to you.

In this book, Edwards included a chapter on how we are to respond to sarcastic and mean spirited comments from others. There, he makes the biblical point that such attacks should not surprise us; rather, we should expect them:
"Men that have their spirits heated and enraged and rising in bitter resentment when they are injured act as if they thought some strange thing had happened to them. Whereas they are very foolish in so thinking for it is no strange thing at all but only what was to be expected in a world like this. They therefore do not act wisely that allow their spirits to be ruffled by the injuries they suffer."
Edwards’ point is that if the Christian expects to be slandered and spoken down to when the truth is exposed but he keeps his eyes focused on God when it happens, and he will not be depressed over it.

I am not depressed over your comments. Saddened, YES that you as a Christian would say them to another Christian.
I will take that as your conceding to the fact that the Women did indeed speak in tongues on the Day of Pentecost but you need a distraction so you are trying to play the victim of mistreatment. like "Stop being mean to me"

Ok I will leave you alone. But no more bad hermeneutics or I will return with a rebuttal. :)