TONGUES TODAY

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Jul 23, 2018
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Yes He did.......but accordingto Mark 16....He personally only commissioned the ELEVEN.

The apostles were special, but only because of their message. As long as they preached their special message, special power would be available to prove the truth of their special message.

Acts 14:3........
"Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands."

First, there is no evidence that anyone other than the apostles received the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. That blessing had been promised to them (see Acts 1:5, 8). The only other exception was to the household of Cornelius, in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy, as a divine token that Gentiles were to be admitted into the church (Joel 2:28ff; cf. Acts 2:17ff; 10:44; 11:15; 15:8).

Second, there is no explicit testimony which indicates that anyone other than the apostles possessed miraculous gifts for some time following Pentecost. If the claim be made that the expression “gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38) reflects such, we would insist that this is a point to be proven, not merely asserted. The expression itself does not determine the nature of the gift. In fact, the evidence of Luke’s subsequent record suggests otherwise.

Note the following:

  • “[W]onders and signs were done through the apostles” (Acts 2:43).
  • y the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought” (5:12).

These passages are puzzling if all of the early Christians were going about performing miracles.
Maybe in the cessationist workbook we can modify the miracles of the 12 as temporary and the miracles of the temporary disciples who later left Jesus as " super temp miracles"
..... never again to be repeated.

No more healing or casting out devils.
God got out of that business 2000 years ago?

SMH.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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All of your comments are sarcastic......and are opinions. That seems to be your way of talking to others.

Would you care to give us YOUR exegesis and explination of Mark 16:14-19............
"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

This is NOT a trick or baited question. Just a genuine question so that I can try and understand where you are coming from so that we can have a basis of communication. So I am asking you to correct the 50 years of study and learning I have accumulated.

#1. Who is the CONTEXT of verse #15 ?
#2. Who is the "antecedent" (Greek Grammar- use your google ability) of the the word "THEM" in verse #15?
#3. What were the ones in verse #14 commissioned to do?
#4. Who is Jesus talking about in verse #16?
#5. Who is the "THEM" in verse #17?
#6. What are the ones in focus, standing in front of Jesus told that they will receive in verse #17?
#7. What are the abilities Jesus told these men that they would be able to do:
This conversation came up on another thread a while back. TOIS in 'them that believe' does NOT refer back to 'the eleven' grammatically. It is not a pronoun that refers back to a previous noun. Rather, it is a masculine plural definite article in the dative case. Tois goes with the participle which immediately follows it.

I recall that was one commentary written by someone in the 'Church of Christ' movement written by a man who did not have a very deep understanding of Greek grammar, apparently, but managed to get published in the early part of the 20th century. It is sad when people take such things as an authority.

If we were to apply this man's reasoning to similar grammatical structures in the New Testament, then one must insist that the men and brethren Peter addressed in Acts 1:16, the 120 in the upper room, were the soldiers who went with Judas to arrest Jesus.

As a rule of thumb, it is good to be skeptical of Greek grammatical rules that allegedly lead us to conclusions that are contrary to what most translations of the scriptures say. There are a lot of 'Greek myths' that show up in commentaries and sermons. The same is true of definitions. The diistinctions between agape and phileo and rhema and logos heard from many pulpits are not quite accurate. Dunamis does not mean explosive force in the original Greek of the New Testament. One of the former posters on the B-Greek list, which discussed Biblical Greek, warned about 'Baptist aorists.' He would sometimes comment on some of the false ideas he had heard about Greek from pulpits. He attributed some of the poor Greek skills learned in seminaries from the fact that they followed the educational techniques of the sophists, and in some cases the Greek instructor did not know the language well. He could name exceptions to that rule though among some seminarie professors he knew.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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I now have asked you TWICE.

Now this is the 3rd time.

Please post where what I have Said that is way out of line. SPECIFICALLY! What have I said that is not Biblical????

YOU not lieing what I have said is not the same as "Being way out of line" Biblically."

NO ONE....has a gun to your head forcing you to post responces to me. Please feel free to say good bye any time you want to.

I enjoy responding to your opinions as you never seem o be able to post ANY Bible scripture to support anything you say....but again, if you are reading things you have never learned and they bother you, then you can do one of two thing...........

1. Say Good-bye and your stress is over.
2. YOU open YOUR Bible, READ it, do the study and work that I have done and be able to say that you are workman so that the Lord can say....well done!

Either way.....God bless you and thank you for your time, and I hope that because you do not agree with me that you do not continue th o think that I am the enemy.
Right here !!


Please look at your own words!

You said: Post 363


Second, there is no explicit testimony which indicates that anyone other than the apostles possessed miraculous gifts for some time following Pentecost. If the claim be made that the expression “gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38) reflects such, we would insist that this is a point to be proven, not merely asserted.


That statement is unbiblical, not true and the Very Book of Acts says so.

Now You can leave friend, not me. You attack those here whom you disagree with and make comments that are untrue and when called on it you freak out. Maybe it's time for you to leave? Take A BREAK FROM cc FOR A BIT.

I WILL PROVIDE MORE PROOF FOR YOU OK?



"I enjoy responding to your opinions as you never seem o be able to post ANY Bible scripture to support anything you say"


That was a bald-faced lie. Many here have posted much scripture. And agreed with the error of those in the videos you provided.

BUT You are untruthful and unbiblical and because you said I have not posted any Bible scriptures to support anything I have said makes you unreasonable, unfriendly, and I bid YOU goodbye Please enjoy finding another Chat site. You are a troll.

God bless you :)
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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I would have to disagree.

When I read the literal word in Acts, I do not see the 120 speaking in tongues. I see the ELEVEN and specifically Peter. Mary is named but nowhere is it said she spoke in tongues.
It is customary to read the whole chapter and surrounding verses before interpreting a passage. A large group of about 120 were gathered. Peter told that large group that someone needed to replace Judas. The group set forward two men based on the criteria Peter laid out. They cast lots. The one chosen was added to the eleven disciples. Then, on the day of Pentecost, they were all in one accord in one place.

A normal, straight-forward reading of the text would lead us to believe that 'all' refers to the whole group that were involved with that discussion about Matthias being included with the eleven, not just to the eleven. It seems that you have a very rigid view on speaking in tongues, and you are really driven to line up every passage to fit with that interpretation, even if it is 'reaching' a bit.

I know others have made the same set of arguments you have in the past, so maybe there is some other rigid, doctrinally motivated interpreter whose commentary you rely on. One of the dangers with commentaries like this is that a Bible commentary seems so authoritative. Many people like the 'appeal to authority' in an argument and are swayed by the supposed expert that writes a book. Maybe you have a commentary that teaches this.

What I have noticed is that a lot of people in the so-called 'Church of Christ' movement have this rigid approach to this and other doctrines. They tend to be homogeneous on many matters of doctrine. And since many of them think that they, exclusively are THE true church, they tend to think that theirs must be the right or proper way of interpreting scripture. They also have their own kind of logical/interpretive rules that was influenced by Scottish Common Sense Realism, an offshoot of Enlightenment philosophy. Anyway, their commentaries and other people interpreting scripture the same way can be a bit of an echo chamber where they reinforce each others interpretations. Nearly everyone else they encounter who they think is a true Christian has the same beliefs.

I saw in a past thread, your ideas on Mark 16 align with the interpretation of a commentary from that movement that misinterpreted the Greek grammar, so that is why I mention it. I seem to vaguely recall that you may not be from this 'Restoration Movement' as best I can understand. But your propensity to hold to strained and unlikely interpretations of passages rigidly to support your theological viewpoint reminds me of conversations with people from this movement. I wonder if you have one of their commentaries on your desk or have encountered their ideas. And, btw, it seems like people in the instrumental Christian Church side of the movement are a bit less rigid about interpreting texts to fit with their predetermined positions.

Back to Acts 1-2, the idea that 'all' in Acts 2:1 refers specifically to the eleven in the previous verse is a rather strained reading of the text, highly unlikely, very unnatural, and not demanded by Greek grammar. Basing doctrine on such a speculative interpretation of the text is unwise. The actual message Peter preaches is about an outpouring of the Spirit, which is not limited to the Twelve, clearly, from what he quotes from Joel and from his own commentary.
 
Apr 26, 2021
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For to which of the angels said He at any time, thou art My Son. This day have I begotten Thee?

Does the author of Hebrews accept the idea that 'the angel of the Lord' refers to pre-incarnate Christ? is there any evidence for this view in the NT?

But, IMO, this conversation should be its own thread.
What part of that sentence says to Jesus "you are an angel?" You are making an assumption that when God says he didn't choose an angel (any of the created angels) or a man (any created man) to do the job Jesus did, that Jesus is one of the created heavenly angels. That's not said at all. That's a presumption you are making that isn't stated.
 
Apr 26, 2021
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I know there is a very ancient belief that some of the 'angel of the Lord' passages refer to preincarnate Jesus. But this interpretation is a big questionable. If one accepts it and sees that Michael was/is a prince over Israel, then the idea that Michael refers to preincarnate Christ may make sense. But the whole thing is so speculative, it is a dangerous thing to proclaim. If you are wrong in this guesswork, then you should consider that maybe your statement could be blasphemy.
The bible does say that.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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What part of that sentence says to Jesus "you are an angel?" You are making an assumption that when God says he didn't choose an angel (any of the created angels) or a man (any created man) to do the job Jesus did, that Jesus is one of the created heavenly angels. That's not said at all. That's a presumption you are making that isn't stated.
No, I do not make this assumption. I do not see how anything I posted could reasonably interpreted this way.

I pointed out that the idea that 'angel of the Lord' refers to Christ is speculative. That verse I quoted from Hebrews might argue against it.

I appreciate the fact that this line of interpretation about the 'angel of the Lord' gives a good 'onramp' in the OT to trinitarian theology, and I understand it's appeal from that perspective.
 
Apr 26, 2021
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Jesus is creator
Michael is a created being.
That's the reason you can't understand. Also, you ignore Daniel 9:25 which identifies the Messiah as the prince and Daniel 12:1 which identifies Michael as the prince. That's full circle identifying Michael the arch angel.

Angels are heralds. They are messengers. They were created. But Jesus who came into the world and preached the word, is the chief Herald over the created angels and man. He is the chief messenger of all the created messengers. That does not mean that Jesus himself is a created angel. Jesus created everything, including his word, he is the chief proclaimer, author and power behind it. None of that says he is a created angel, just that he is the arch angel over all creation.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,997
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The bible does say that.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
listen Jesus is not an angel. The word "Prince" is in context to HIS many Tiles He has.

Prince of Peace
Mighty God
every lasting Father
Great Counselor
Messiah
King

Son of God
Lord
Savior
Healer,
Teacher.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,160
1,787
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The bible does say that.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
The Bible does not say that there is only one prince. Saul was anointed a prince. Prophets prophesied to princes.

Interpreting these passages to mean that the Messiah is a Prince and that there is also an angel that is a prince for Israel, just as some other being was a prince for Persia also seems quite reasonable. We do not deify the prince of Persia, also mentioned in the book. Paul refers to principalities. These are not 'god' in the New Testament understanding of the word 'God.'
 
Apr 26, 2021
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No, I do not make this assumption. I do not see how anything I posted could reasonably interpreted this way.

I pointed out that the idea that 'angel of the Lord' refers to Christ is speculative. That verse I quoted from Hebrews might argue against it.

I appreciate the fact that this line of interpretation about the 'angel of the Lord' gives a good 'onramp' in the OT to trinitarian theology, and I understand it's appeal from that perspective.
Oh, I'm sorry. You cited an objection to understanding that Jesus is Michael, the arch angel and cited the citation where God tells us that he didn't choose and angel or man to do the job Jesus did.

As for Jesus being the angel of the Lord, that is pretty much understood throughout the scriptures. The angel of the Lord accepts praise and worship. He is declared to do "wondrously" which God says in praise. The angel of the Lord called out from heaven to stop Abraham from killing Isaac declaring "now I see thou hast not witheld thy son, thy only son from me. Genesis 22:11-12.

And all of this discussion is all written out and cited in another thread.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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That's the reason you can't understand. Also, you ignore Daniel 9:25 which identifies the Messiah as the prince and Daniel 12:1 which identifies Michael as the prince. That's full circle identifying Michael the arch angel.

Angels are heralds. They are messengers. They were created. But Jesus who came into the world and preached the word, is the chief Herald over the created angels and man. He is the chief messenger of all the created messengers. That does not mean that Jesus himself is a created angel. Jesus created everything, including his word, he is the chief proclaimer, author and power behind it. None of that says he is a created angel, just that he is the arch angel over all creation.
It is not my position to guess that Jesus IS BEYOND any doubt Michael.

That is for others to take that shaky ground.
A guessing game with no viable outcome

I will say simply Jesus is creator
Angels are created beings.

Oh i understand alright.
It has some pivital meaning for some people.

For me it is neither pivitol or a battle i will defend.

Kiss
"Keep it simple"
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,160
1,787
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Oh, I'm sorry. You cited an objection to understanding that Jesus is Michael, the arch angel and cited the citation where God tells us that he didn't choose and angel or man to do the job Jesus did.
A passage that shows He did not choose an angel. It says He took not on Him the nature of angels, but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.

Can you see the difficulty with arguing that Jesus is an angel when considering this passage.

I know one could argue that Jesus was an 'Angel' in a literal sense of a messenger and that possibly the word kind of changed to mean a certain type of entity, 'species' if you will (that does not reproduce, usually). But couldn't the passage tell us that was what was going on? The idea that 'angel of the Lord' passages, like the burning bush, might refer to Christ, provide quite an apologetic for trinitarian thought, but where does the Bible actually indicate, even hint, that these references refer to the preincarnate Christ?

As for Jesus being the angel of the Lord, that is pretty much understood throughout the scriptures. The angel of the Lord accepts praise and worship. He is declared to do "wondrously" which God says in praise. The angel of the Lord called out from heaven to stop Abraham from killing Isaac declaring "now I see thou hast not witheld thy son, thy only son from me. Genesis 22:11-12.
When humans prophesied, many of them also spoke for God in the first person. If an angel did the same thing, would that be so unusual?
 
Apr 26, 2021
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listen Jesus is not an angel. The word "Prince" is in context to HIS many Tiles He has.

Prince of Peace
Mighty God
every lasting Father
Great Counselor
Messiah
King

Son of God
Lord
Savior
Healer,
Teacher.
You won't accept that Jesus came into the world proclaiming his word, delivering his message, speaking on behalf of God and is the power behind the message that saves people. And you won't accept the scriptures that identify Michael as the prince and the prince as the messiah. And don't reply to me saying, oh yes he is and he did all those things because you don't believe it.

And because you can't understand that Jesus did those things, you are practically denying he ever proclaimed his word or preached or heralded or announced the news of salvation to the world simply because you are hung up on the notion that he is a created angel which is NEVER said by the scriptures or by me.
 
Apr 26, 2021
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A passage that shows He did not choose an angel. It says He took not on Him the nature of angels, but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.

Can you see the difficulty with arguing that Jesus is an angel when considering this passage.

I know one could argue that Jesus was an 'Angel' in a literal sense of a messenger and that possibly the word kind of changed to mean a certain type of entity, 'species' if you will (that does not reproduce, usually). But couldn't the passage tell us that was what was going on? The idea that 'angel of the Lord' passages, like the burning bush, might refer to Christ, provide quite an apologetic for trinitarian thought, but where does the Bible actually indicate, even hint, that these references refer to the preincarnate Christ?



When humans prophesied, many of them also spoke for God in the first person. If an angel did the same thing, would that be so unusual?
This is all discussed and the case made in the other thread.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-hebrew-in-decent.198968/page-20#post-4566428
 
Apr 26, 2021
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It is not my position to guess that Jesus IS BEYOND any doubt Michael.

That is for others to take that shaky ground.
A guessing game with no viable outcome

I will say simply Jesus is creator
Angels are created beings.

Oh i understand alright.
It has some pivital meaning for some people.

For me it is neither pivitol or a battle i will defend.

Kiss
"Keep it simple"
Perhaps it's not your position to learn truth either.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I now have asked you TWICE.

Now this is the 3rd time.

Please post where what I have Said that is way out of line. SPECIFICALLY! What have I said that is not Biblical????

YOU not lieing what I have said is not the same as "Being way out of line" Biblically."

NO ONE....has a gun to your head forcing you to post responces to me. Please feel free to say good bye any time you want to.

I enjoy responding to your opinions as you never seem o be able to post ANY Bible scripture to support anything you say....but again, if you are reading things you have never learned and they bother you, then you can do one of two thing...........

1. Say Good-bye and your stress is over.u
2. YOU open YOUR Bible, READ it, do the study and work that I have done and be able to say that you are workman so that the Lord can say....well done!

Either way.....God bless you and thank you for your time, and I hope that because you do not agree with me that you do not continue th o think that I am the enemy.
ff to around 16:50 . the dead are raised!!!

Jesus is alive!!!
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
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ff to around 16:50 . the dead are raised!!!

Jesus is alive!!!
This does not address the question aske of where SPECIFICALLY have I posted something that was not Biblical????
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
885
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In hebrew 1 somewhere.

"....to which of his angela did he ever say, thou art my son....."
God love my brother....but dont you think the proper thing to do is to look up the appropriate Scripture instead of "Somewhere in Hebrews 1.

You do know that there are many people who are new to the Christian faith and they need to be lead properly to the right Scripture.