Total Depravity

[rogerg]

Because OF this all men sin (when they are old enough to choose between right and wrong). and are therefore condemned.

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

[Beckworth]

Total depravity... the first point that calvanists believe.

Please prove from the word the difference and which is correct,
Between....
We are born without sin, sinless.

We are born with sinful tendency but not sin.

We are born as one that has already sinned.

The Bible teaches babies are born without sin. Jesus used little children as an example of purity and told adults that unless we become like them—sinless— we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 19:14 and Luke 18:16. Psalms 106 says when people kill children they shed “innocent “ blood.

There is no scripture that says or indicates we are born with a sinful nature. That is a man-made idea. If that is true, it makes God responsible for our sins. We could blame God because He made us that way.

Ezekiel 18 proves that no one inherits sin. Sin is not inherited. God says the son shall NOT inherit sin from the father. The soul that sins it shall die. If we die , it will be from our OWN sins.

 

[Beckworth]

Yes, the title makes things a bit confusing
My aim was to look at the belief,, TOTAL D.. and see if the bible supports what calvin thought or not.

You have made it clear you are not in support of Calvinism.

But you do believe in original sin. I think..

They are much debated subjects...

I believe we are unable to do good, because we have inherited a sinful nature, but I do not believe we are born guilty of sin. No choice to obey or disobey has been made by us at birth.

The nature of Christ is another subject. This is ever harder to understand.

Where is the scripture that says man inherits a “sinful nature?”
“Inherited sin Is refuted in Ezekiel 18.
1 Thess. 5:21 says “PROVE ALL THINGS.”
In the judgement , when the “books” are opened, it will not matter what any man thinks. All that will matter is, “ what does The Bible say?

 

[Beckworth]

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

This is a very figurative Psalm. You can’t take every word literally. For instant, babies don’t speak lies as soon as they are born—they don’t speak at all! This is an expression, along with the rest of the Psalm, just used to show how wicked some people are. We say some of the same kind of things when we say someone was born with a silver spoon in their mouth . Or, “He was born in the objective case” because he objects to everything. Or we might say, he was born a liar. We don’t mean these things LITERALLY! If your interpretation of a scripture contradicts another scripture (Ezekiel 18) then your interpretation is wrong. The Bible does not contradict itself.

 

[PaulThomson]

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Look up the meanings of the Hebrew prefix B- and the Hebrew "min" often appearing as the prefix M- .
The text says what the LXX says.
3. The wicked are estranged since (B-, apo) the womb: they go astray after [M-, apo] birth, speaking lies.
The Hebrew and LXX say sin begins some time AFTER [apo] birth, not while coming out of [ek] the womb. Obviously no child leaves the womb "speaking lies". That happens some time AFTER leaving the womb.

The KJB translators read their tradition of original sin into the Hebrew text.

 

[rogerg]

This is a very figurative Psalm. You can’t take every word literally. For instant, babies don’t speak lies as soon as they are born—they don’t speak at all! This is an expression, along with the rest of the Psalm, just used to show how wicked some people are. We say some of the same kind of things when we say someone was born with a silver spoon in their mouth . Or, “He was born in the objective case” because he objects to everything. Or we might say, he was born a liar. We don’t mean these things LITERALLY! If your interpretation of a scripture contradicts another scripture (Ezekiel 18) then your interpretation is wrong. The Bible does not contradict itself.

[Psa 51:5 KJV] 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
[Psa 51:5 NIV]5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
[Jer 17:9 NIV] 9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

[Rom 7:20 KJV] 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[Rom 7:20 NIV] 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

 

[NilsForChrist]

Open theism makes more sense than Calvinism, Arminianism and Molinism, and it leaps out of every page. of the Bible.

Yeah,, it makes more sense, but both extremes are unbiblical.