Tribulation and more...

[LookinToChat]

Okay, about to open Pandora's box but i ask you all kindly to be respectful when chiming in...

Christ as well as OT prophecies speak of something referred to as Eschatology. Simply put this relates to end time events.

One thing i want to say to start off this discussion is the phase Tribulation, or the Great Tribulation...

The Great Tribulation [FONT=&quot]([/FONT]Greek[FONT=&quot]: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]θλίψις μεγάλη[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT]thlipsis megalē)

If there is tribulation even to this day around the world, the simple word "great" added to the word tribulation simply means an increase of what is currently occurring... Again, tribulation means trials and afflication, which from the beginning of the church age we have read about and bare witness to today.

If this is the case, why on earth would people assume we would not experience this event and base there view on escaping these hard times to come? If you've never read Foxes book of Martyrs i suggest you read these stories of persecution against the church, then ask yourself why you think your better then they are and will be removed from this affliction to come.

 

[dcontroversal]

I used to believe imminent return....now I believe post tribulation/pre-wrath ingathering at the 7th and final trump of Revelation.

 

[LookinToChat]

I used to believe imminent return....now I believe post tribulation/pre-wrath ingathering at the 7th and final trump of Revelation.

i was the same way.... It wasnt till i used the Bible and the Strong's Concordance ( to know the words) that i shifted immediately

So many verses seem to be misused by meaningful people who i believe are truly christian just wrong about this

 

[Nehemiah6]

If there is tribulation even to this day around the world, the simple word "great" added to the word tribulation simply means an increase of what is currently occurring...

This statement indicates that you have really not studied the matter and are simply expressing your mistaken opinion. And by doing so you may mislead someone who is not familiar with the subject.

The way the Great Tribulation is described by the Lord Jesus Christ LEAVES NO ROOM FOR AMBIGUITY. It is a unique period of human history such as has never been in the past, nor will ever be repeated. The prophecy of Daniel corroborates this and says the very same thing.

The words of Christ: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21)

The words of Daniel: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

So it is NOT simply an increase in the tribulations of the saints. In fact, it has nothing to do with the saints of God, since it is an expression of God's wrath against sin and evil, sinners and evildoers. It is God's judgment on sinners -- the wicked, the unbelieving, and the ungodly. And it is presented to us in the events of the 6th and 7th seals in the book of Revelation.

 

[Adstar]

Okay, about to open Pandora's box but i ask you all kindly to be respectful when chiming in...

Christ as well as OT prophecies speak of something referred to as Eschatology. Simply put this relates to end time events.

One thing i want to say to start off this discussion is the phase Tribulation, or the Great Tribulation...

The Great Tribulation (Greek: θλίψις μεγάλη, thlipsis megalē)

If there is tribulation even to this day around the world, the simple word "great" added to the word tribulation simply means an increase of what is currently occurring... Again, tribulation means trials and afflication, which from the beginning of the church age we have read about and bare witness to today.

If this is the case, why on earth would people assume we would not experience this event and base there view on escaping these hard times to come? If you've never read Foxes book of Martyrs i suggest you read these stories of persecution against the church, then ask yourself why you think your better then they are and will be removed from this affliction to come.

Many people want to believe when they are told they will escape tribulation in this world.. Thus when they hear the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine they embrace it with enthusiasm.. So people will often quickly believe an escapist doctrine and strongly resist when they are shown that it is a delusion.. They become emotionally attached to the doctrine especally when it has been delivered to them by people they respect as Authorities or loved elders..

In the end what is going to happen will happen and that's the time that people who believe in the escapist doctrine will face a crisis in faith,, right at the time when their faith will need to be at it's strongest..

But people who accept that tribulation can come and that the rapture will not be a pre-tribulation rapture,, They will be more able to bear tribulation when it strikes them.. Yes it will still be very hard to take.. But the psychological impact will be mitigated by their foreknowledge that it was always a possibility that they would be alive during the times of the great Tribulation..

 

[Waggles]

 

[Nehemiah6]

Many people want to believe when they are told they will escape tribulation in this world..

That's hardly the issue. God has not promised the Great Tribulation to His people. The Great Tribulation is an expression of the wrath of God, not the trials and tribulations of the saints which have been occurring ever since the time of the apostles.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness... But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile (Rom 1:18; 2:8,9).

The difference between the tribulations of the saints and the Great Tribulation of the wicked is clearly noted in this passage:

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. (2 Thess 1:3-10)



4

 

[Locutus]

Until you place the great tribulation in the time it belonged which is the generation that heard Jesus your theology is going to be in error.

Mat 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.


Mat 24:34 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


Adam Clarke's commentary:

Verse 21

For then shall be great tribulation - No history can furnish us with a parallel to the calamities and miseries of the Jews: - rapine, murder, famine, and pestilence within: fire and sword, and all the horrors of war, without.

Our Lord wept at the foresight of these calamities; and it is almost impossible for any humane person to read the relation of them in Josephus without weeping also. St. Luke, Luke 21:22, calls these the days of vengeance, that all things which were written might be fulfilled.

These were the days in which all the calamities predicted by Moses, Joel, Daniel, and other prophets, as well as those predicted by our Savior, met in one common center, and were fulfilled in the most terrible manner on that generation.


These were the days of vengeance in another sense, as if God's judgments had certain periods and revolutions; for it is remarkable that the temple was burned by the Romans in the same month, and on the same day of the month, on which it had been burned by the Babylonians. See Josephus, War, b. vi. c. 4.

 

[Noose]

The great tribulation is nothing more than what is described in Rev 6; death by, pestilences (diseases), sword (wars), famine (Natural disasters), beasts of the earth (animals and machinery) and it all starts with captivity (of course captivity of the mind aka abomination)

The only difference in these end times deaths is that we are to overcome the antichrist by the blood of the lamb; the ones who don’t are already condemned to hell fire forever- this is what makes death during these end times more dangerous otherwise we are already deep into the great tribulation (almost through based on the 70 week calculation).

Rev 14: 13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead — those whodieinthe Lordfromthis moment on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “- they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”
About the rapture; Rapture is not a mass thing but an individualistic one.
There are two groups of believers- the unfaithful believers aka church of Smyrna aka Jerusalem. These are unfaithful because they are not fully aware who God is. They form majority of Christians (100s of millions) and the great tribulation is specifically for them, to refine their faith with fire as gold and silver and they must die without denying the name of the Lord for them to win life eternal as their victor’s crown.

The other group is the faithful believers aka church of Philadelphia aka Judah. These have a heart to fully know God and that’s the reason they are faithful. They are protected from the great tribulation and they are only 144k believers.

And Jesus said “..When you shall see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, let those in Judea flee to the mountains….”
Means the faithful believers will be shelved from the tribulations and this is what is called rapture. It is individualistic; a car accident, everyone else dies except one or two. Two would be in a field, one taken the other left- this is what it means flight.

It was also prophesied in Jeremiah 24:

1After Jehoiachin[SUP]a[/SUP] son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the officials, the skilled workers and the artisans of Judah were carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Lordshowed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the Lord. 2One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very bad figs, so bad they could not be eaten.
3Then the Lord asked me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?”
“Figs,” I answered. “The good ones are very good, but the bad ones are so bad they cannot be eaten.”
4Then the word of the Lord came to me: 5“This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians.[SUP]b[/SUP] 6My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.
8“ ‘But like the bad figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,’ says the Lord, ‘so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt. 9I will make them abhorrent and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, a curse[SUP]c[/SUP] and an object of ridicule, wherever I banish them. 10I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their ancestors.’ ”

The prophesy applied to Daniel and friends but more so to us because we are in Babylon right now. Daniel and friends never flew off from Babylon but were protected right in Babylon- that was their rapture and it happened several times.

 

[EarnestQ]

In another thread there was a discussion about whether or not Paul's gospel was different from the gospels of Jesus or the gospels for Israel.

What I wrote there seems to apply here so I will offer it here too.


This multiple gospel claim presumes a distinction between the Jewish and Gentile believers. This is the most important tenant (according to Dispensational scholars) of Dispensationalism. John Darby created this distinction (along with the need for multiple gospels), and Dispensationalism in general, to support his belief in the Pre-trib rapture.

He knew that Matt 24 clearly contradicted the Pre-trib rapture so he invented this separation between the Jews and the church so Matt 24 would not contradict his belief. If he could claim that Matt 24 was for only for the Jews (and invent multiple gospels to go with it), then he could still preach the Pre-trib rapture.

As best as I can tell from investigating it some years ago, the pre-trib rapture belief came out of the Albury Prophesy Conferences in England (at the Albury estate near London) in the late 1820's. They published their proceedings in annual volumes called, "Dialogs on Prophesy". And in them, one can clearly find most of the beginnings of Dispensationalism. (I have copies of many pages from these volumes that clearly prove it.)

Darby got the pre-trib rapture (and other Dispensational concepts) from attendees of these conferences a few years later at the Powerscourt Prophesy Conferences (there is clear documentation about all of this) and for the rest of his life developed Dispensationalism to support it.

The reason Dispensationalists are so adamant about proclaiming the two peoples of God (and the different gospels that go with it) is because without it, there is no justification for the pre-trib rapture.

The pre-trib rapture existed before Dispensationalism and Dispensationalism was specifically created by John Darby to justify a pre-trib rapture.



Regarding there being more than one gospel, Paul makes it absolutely clear what he thinks about multiple gospels.

Gal 1

8. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
​

9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!


​

I think it is a rather serious issue for Dispensationalists to proclaim more that one gospel just so they can have their pre-trib rapture.

With respect,

Earnest

 

[Noose]

This is how it's going to be.

Matt 24:36“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[SUP]f[/SUP] but only the Father.37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.40Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left...

It is said, no one know the hour and before the hour, everything will be NORMAL. Here is a list of things that don't fall within NORMAL:

-Christians flying off and will be nowhere to be seen in a minute
-Angels flying low blowing trumpets and proclaiming the eternal gospel
-7 headed beasts coming out of seas
- Angels seating on a cloud holding a sharp sickle

If No.1 on this lists happens, wouldn't people know the return of the Lord would be 3.5 years later (as some people teach) completely contradicting the fact that no one knows the hour?
And if any of these things happen, would life be normal? would people marry and merry and be given to marriage like it says in Matthew 24?

People need to go back to Daniel and calculate the timeline, then they will understand what happens when.

 

[garee]

This statement indicates that you have really not studied the matter and are simply expressing your mistaken opinion. And by doing so you may mislead someone who is not familiar with the subject.

The way the Great Tribulation is described by the Lord Jesus Christ LEAVES NO ROOM FOR AMBIGUITY. It is a unique period of human history such as has never been in the past, nor will ever be repeated. The prophecy of Daniel corroborates this and says the very same thing.

The words of Christ: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21)

The words of Daniel: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

So it is NOT simply an increase in the tribulations of the saints. In fact, it has nothing to do with the saints of God, since it is an expression of God's wrath against sin and evil, sinners and evildoers. It is God's judgment on sinners -- the wicked, the unbelieving, and the ungodly. And it is presented to us in the events of the 6th and 7th seals in the book of Revelation.

I would suggest it has to do with the time of reformation.(Hebrews9)The Jews used in parables up to that time in ceremonial laws as shadows pointing to Christ, and the renting of the veil had come to a end. In doing so they lost their outward identity. A great tribulation that remains .One that will not be repeated.

 

[Justshalllivebyfaith]

The great tribulation spoken by Jesus (Matt 24:21), by Daniel (12:1), by Ezekiel (5:9), Jer (30:6-7) is spoken again by Jesus in Rev. (3:10)

See also Dan (11:33,35)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The great tribulation is also spoken of as the time of Jacobs trouble both are called a time of great distress (tribulation) which would be so severe on the earth, that there was never a time like it before. and will never be a time like it after.

Great tribulation is put to an end by the return of the messiah. (If I did not come all flesh would die)

The time period will be a time when there is a possibility to destroy all life on earth (no flesh will survive)

The time will mark the end of the time of the gentiles spoken of in Daniel.

The time is marked by a ruler (the final beast of Daniels gentile kingdoms) who will rule the earth.

the time is spoken of in revelation. and in Daniel, a period immediately following the abomination of desolation (see matt 24)

these are but a few of the characteristics the bible speaks of concerning that time