Trinity vs. Oneness

[charisenexcelcis]

Where does it specifically say that they are three seperate people? Or are these conclusions that man has come to?

Every writer in the New Testament save one says that. I can start transfering them over from the last time I went and proved that if you would like.

 

[Dmurray]

Jesus told Nicodemus in order for him to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven as well as all people,he must be born of water and the Spirit.

That is the requirement to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven,to be born of the water and of the Spirit.

1.Being born naturally is not a requirement to enter heaven for we all must be born physically and the Bible says all is born in sin.

How can a person being born naturally be a requirement to be able to enter heaven seeing we are all born in sin and God said there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh.

2.It is silly to think that being born naturally is a requirement to be able to enter heaven.

3.Jesus said that being born of water and the Spirit is the requirements to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven,and then said that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which born of the Spirit is spirit.
Being born naturally cannot be being born of water that Jesus was talking about for being born of water is a requirement to be able to see the kingdom of heaven and being born naturally is not a requirement to be to able to see heaven for that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

4.Being born of water and the Spirit are the requirements to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven and is spiritual and being naturally born is fleshy not spiritual.Being born of the flesh is being born in sin which could not be born of water that Jesus was talking about because being born of water is a requirement to be able to enter heaven and being born naturally is fleshy not spiritual.

I do not want to be mean but some people not only do not understand some things spiritually,they do not even use common sense sometimes.I believe that some people of the world would even understand some things of the Bible commonsense wise.

But it is not that they do not understand,it is they are trying to support their traditions of men's doctrines so they have to interpret scriptures to fit their traditions and false doctrines.

The sad part is when a scripture contradicts their tradition that they think is truth,they will ignore it and will not believe so they can hold unto their tradition that they think is the truth.

The Jehovah's witnesses believe that Jesus is a created God but God the Father said there would be no God formed after Him,but they will ignore it.

The Bible says the Son shall be called The everlasting Father,but they interpret it that He is our step Father,which is absurd,and Jesus said we only have one Father.

They will believe the He shall be called The mighty God,but in the same scripture will not believe that He shall be called The everlasting Father.

Matt

Amen Amen! Preach It!

 

[Dmurray]

Consider the meaning of the word "baptism". It means immersion. All who are immersed in Jesus are immerse into his death. If we are immersed into His death then we are raised with Him and walk in the newness of life. It is as simple as that. Not once in this passage does He say water.

Baptize means to make wholly wet actually. The greek definition of it does not mention immersion, but it talks about liquid.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

G911
βάπτω
baptō
bap'-to
A primary verb; to whelm, that is, cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or specific sense, that is, (literally) to moisten (a part of one’s person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye): - dip.

First, if you are going to argue from Greek, Strongs isn't a strong source. the reason is that he merges usages for ease of the reader. The core meaning of baptidzo is to immerse. Sorry, but otherwise we are washing ourselves in Christ, a messy idea in the flesh.

 

[Ricke]

David
Who is "twisting" what Jesus said?
He said we had to Be Born Again of WATER and SPIRIT did he not? Another words David you need Both, one won't get the job done.

Water is on Regular type WATER; IE..River, Pond, Ocean whatever works.

Acts 2 v 38...Peter says; "......and be Baptized everyone of you in The Name of Jesus Christ, for The Remission of Sins and you Shall received The Gift of The HOLY GHOST......

There is your WATER and there is your SPIRIT...
I've got a business trip to leave for overnight. Got to vet some test. David just get back in 48 hours if youhave any more questions......God Bless...

 

[Dmurray]

Every writer in the New Testament save one says that. I can start transfering them over from the last time I went and proved that if you would like.

No wheres in Scripture have I ever read that Jesus, Father, and Holy Ghost, are three distinct persons. For there is only one image of the invisible God. and God was manifest in the flesh.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Baptize means to make wholly wet actually. The greek definition of it does not mention immersion, but it talks about liquid.

Again, your Greek is not even beginning Greek. Are you contending that we make ourselves wet in Christ? I don't think so.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

David
Who is "twisting" what Jesus said?
He said we had to Be Born Again of WATER and SPIRIT did he not? Another words David you need Both, one won't get the job done.

Water is on Regular type WATER; IE..River, Pond, Ocean whatever works.

Acts 2 v 38...Peter says; "......and be Baptized everyone of you in The Name of Jesus Christ, for The Remission of Sins and you Shall received The Gift of The HOLY GHOST......

There is your WATER and there is your SPIRIT...
I've got a business trip to leave for overnight. Got to vet some test. David just get back in 48 hours if youhave any more questions......God Bless...

I only have an answer. Water is water. When Jesus died and blood and water poured out of him, they did not have to use a special word for water. Unless you contend that he had a pond in Him.

 

[Dmurray]

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

G911
βάπτω
baptō
bap'-to
A primary verb; to whelm, that is, cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or specific sense, that is, (literally) to moisten (a part of one’s person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye): - dip.

Dave,

We make ourselves fully wet in water baptism to represent our lives being buried with Christ.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

No wheres in Scripture have I ever read that Jesus, Father, and Holy Ghost, are three distinct persons. For there is only one image of the invisible God. and God was manifest in the flesh.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26.

This is what He didn't say: "But when I return as the Holy Spirit, in my authority as Father and in my name as the Son, I will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you when I was here as the Son."

Clearly Jesus speaks of the Father and the Holy Spirit as separate persons. In a previous thread I showed that this was taught by every writer of the New Testament save one.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Dave,

We make ourselves fully wet in water baptism to represent our lives being buried with Christ.

Exactly. What is the important part? The ritual of baptism or the eternal reality of being in Christ? That's the decision that you must make.

 

[Ricke]

David
Good scripture and teaching...both you and Matt...exellent.
What we have to realize..some of the Folks on here just don't want to agree with what is right, they'd rather argue so they don't have to admit somebody else maybe right.

Just pray for them....God Bless...

 

[Dmurray]

Exactly. What is the important part? The ritual of baptism or the eternal reality of being in Christ? That's the decision that you must make.

I don't think it matters which is most important, I think it matters what Scripture says and commands us to do.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Jesus told Nicodemus in order for him to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven as well as all people,he must be born of water and the Spirit.

That is the requirement to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven,to be born of the water and of the Spirit.

1.Being born naturally is not a requirement to enter heaven for we all must be born physically and the Bible says all is born in sin.
But Jesus uses the term "born again". Nicodemus had already been born once. He asked about going back into his mother's womb. Jesus clarifies by saying that you must be born of water (natural birth) and of the Spirit. Nothing that is not born of water can be reborn of the Spirit.

How can a person being born naturally be a requirement to be able to enter heaven seeing we are all born in sin and God said there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh.

2.It is silly to think that being born naturally is a requirement to be able to enter heaven.
How would you enter heaven if you were never born?

3.Jesus said that being born of water and the Spirit is the requirements to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven,and then said that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which born of the Spirit is spirit.
Exactly. Being born of the flesh is not enough to be saved. You must be born again.
Being born naturally cannot be being born of water that Jesus was talking about for being born of water is a requirement to be able to see the kingdom of heaven and being born naturally is not a requirement to be to able to see heaven for that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

4.Being born of water and the Spirit are the requirements to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven and is spiritual and being naturally born is fleshy not spiritual.Being born of the flesh is being born in sin which could not be born of water that Jesus was talking about because being born of water is a requirement to be able to enter heaven and being born naturally is fleshy not spiritual.
But you cannot be reborn usless you are born. The first birth (through water) is fleshly. The second is spiritual.

I do not want to be mean but some people not only do not understand some things spiritually,they do not even use common sense sometimes.I believe that some people of the world would even understand some things of the Bible commonsense wise.
This isn't a matter of lack of common sense, it is about trying to use a scripture that isn't talking about baptism, never mentions baptism, to support not only baptismal regeneration, but the Oneness doctrine of needing both baptism by water and glossalia. That is where DMurray is going to, in accordance with the doctrine of the UPCI.

But it is not that they do not understand,it is they are trying to support their traditions of men's doctrines so they have to interpret scriptures to fit their traditions and false doctrines.

The sad part is when a scripture contradicts their tradition that they think is truth,they will ignore it and will not believe so they can hold unto their tradition that they think is the truth.

The Jehovah's witnesses believe that Jesus is a created God but God the Father said there would be no God formed after Him,but they will ignore it.

The Bible says the Son shall be called The everlasting Father,but they interpret it that He is our step Father,which is absurd,and Jesus said we only have one Father.

They will believe the He shall be called The mighty God,but in the same scripture will not believe that He shall be called The everlasting Father.

Matt

The rest of your diatribe still fails to answer my earlier counter point.

 

[VW]

I don't think it matters which is most important, I think it matters what Scripture says and commands us to do.

The scripture does not command us to be baptized, but to baptize others.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I don't think it matters which is most important, I think it matters what Scripture says and commands us to do.

You can go through the ritual of baptism and if you have not been born again it will mean nothing. On the other hand, you may never have the opportunity or ability to be baptized in water and yet you may be born again and nothing will detract that.

 

[Dmurray]

The scripture does not command us to be baptized, but to baptize others.

Why then? Unless we must be baptized. Think about what your saying.

Someone is commanded to baptize me. Why? Because I need to be

Therefore we baptize others because Jesus commanded us to. Why? Because they need to be.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Why then? Unless we must be baptized. Think about what your saying.

Someone is commanded to baptize me. Why? Because I need to be

Therefore we baptize others because Jesus commanded us to. Why? Because they need to be.

Or because they ought to be.

 

[Dmurray]

Or because they ought to be.

Why if it's just a ritual?

There must be a deeper meaning then just "declaring it publicaly"

 

[Dmurray]

Alright, well it is now 9:48 PM, it's just about bed time. Night All. God Bless