Trinity vs. Oneness

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Are you Trinitarian, or Sabellian (Oneness, usually, Oneness Pentecostal)?

  • Trinitarian

    Votes: 45 77.6%
  • Sabellion

    Votes: 6 10.3%
  • What's the difference?

    Votes: 7 12.1%

  • Total voters
    58
R

Ricke

Guest
All
This is why people would rather name call a church or dis credit a church or their followers rather then read and compare scriptures word for word. It is called Spiritual and Biblical Blindness.

There is old saying I have heard many times.

If you keep telling the same lie over and over without evidence, just keep repeating like a Parrot, eventually that lie, or accusation becomes "Truth" ever notice that???
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
Heresy is finite but since all heresy is deviations from the truth, the body of it can be many times larger than the truth. So it makes sense to divide it into classifications for the purpose of refuting it.

When someone builds a new heresy off an old heresy, they haven't really originated anything new; but rather are developing a new strain of heresy from the existing error that came before.

So it makes sense to classify and organize it according to respective root errors.

Within that context, we can look and see exactly how their error uniquely differentiates them from both similar pre-existing error and, of course, the truth.

I hope you have found this informative Ricke. :)

God bless you friend.
 
D

Dmurray

Guest
All
This is why people would rather name call a church or dis credit a church or their followers rather then read and compare scriptures word for word. It is called Spiritual and Biblical Blindness.

There is old saying I have heard many times.

If you keep telling the same lie over and over without evidence, just keep repeating like a Parrot, eventually that lie, or accusation becomes "Truth" ever notice that???
Adolf Hitler said something similar to this. If you keep telling a lie big enough and long enough people will think it's true. IE Evolution.
 
Mar 2, 2010
537
3
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AoK, "distinctiveministry" has been my email and blog since I was in Bible college and a trinitarian, thank you. You've been rather rude today, btw.
 
Aug 6, 2010
13
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0
Im shocked at how this topic reached 33 pages.... its like the same 7 posters keeping it alive
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
I have been distressed over the tone of some of the posts for the entire length of this discussion. After being on the receiving end of being accused of falsehood, I know how that makes one feel. I don't think that my new heart would allow me to do so.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
I didn't know what modolisim is so I searched it. And it is not what I believe.

I believe God is A Holy Spirit and always has been and the Title Father and Son are roles (not modes) in which God has a different relationship with His saints.

That Jesus is the name of the Eternal God of the OT and the NT.

Not that "God the Father" Became "God the Son" and then became "God the Holy Spirit"

But However all three roles still exist today. The Father places judgment upon us and corrects us. The Son shows us how we as Children of God are to be good saints. And the God is a Spirit and He is Holy.

I do not separate the three into different, modes or persons of the Godhead. For within Jesus Christ lies all the fullness of the Godhead Bodily.

God who is a Holy Spirit manifested himself into a human body so he could become our sacrificial lamb and die for our sins.

And He now lives in us by placing His Holy Spirit in us since he is an omnipresent God.

I do not believe that After the Son came, that the Role of the Father disappeared or that after Jesus "died" the role of the Son disappeared. (Which is what I gathered from modalism)

They are still there. Just like how each of us one day (if not already) will play a role as a father and a son at the same time. We just act accordingly to whatever role or relationship we have with the person.

Sorry if it doesn't make sense just ask me for clarification and I will do the best I can. I'm still learning every day just as we all should be. God Bless :)

PS. Keep my family in your prayers please we just lost a family member, and pray that the lost loved ones will feel the imense love of God and draw them to Him :)
I will keep your family in prayer and defer answering your post until you have recovered enough. Just let me know.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
I've been accurate. Sometimes when arrogant people are being corrected they can construe it as rudeness. Rest assured God's love is in effect for all :). Peace and may God bless you in some way today from His storehouse of orthodox wisdom and truth.

AoK, "distinctiveministry" has been my email and blog since I was in Bible college and a trinitarian, thank you. You've been rather rude today, btw.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
I would accept heisTheos "one God" in Greek. I took it directly from 1 Cor 8:6
Two probelms. First, it describes me as well. Second, it doesn't work. I mean, "he's a heistheosian." leaves most still uninformed and doesn't role off the tongue.
 
D

Dmurray

Guest
I've been accurate. Sometimes when arrogant people are being corrected they can construe it as rudeness. Rest assured God's love is in effect for all :). Peace and may God bless you in some way today from His storehouse of orthodox wisdom and truth.
It is the way you word things that make you seem angry or rude IE "I don't take orders from you" (loosly quoted) I don't think he was ordering you, but giving you a suggestion. :)
 
R

Ricke

Guest
"I through the Law died to the Law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by faith—faith in the Son of God, who loved me and handed himself over to death for me."

For Paul, the former Pharisee who sought to live in total obedience to the Law and experienced it as a tyranny that held him in thrall, it was an inexpressible relief to know that in Christ’s death and resurrection he was released for life in the new age. That element of the theology of redemption became for him an existential reality: his life under the domination of Law had ended, and life henceforth was fellowship with the Yurisen Christ; or, otherwise expressed, the risen Christ was the continuing source of his life, as he daily lived by faith in the Lord who loved him and died for him.

What it does NOT mean is that the person of God the Father and the person of God the Holy Spirit don't exist. They certainly do exist actually as scripture teaches they do.

God is one essence in three persons fulfilling functional roles.

At the heart of Paul’s view of salvation, however, is not so much new ‘performance’ as new relationship: i.e. restoration to God. Israel looked forward to ‘salvation’ as the lavish pouring out of the Spirit upon them (Is. 32:15; 44:3; Ezek. 36–37; Joel 2), because this was to be the return of God to Israel in transforming grace.

Accordingly:

a. Paul describes both the church and the individual as the eschatological temple which God now indwells by his Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19; Eph. 2:22, etc.), and the believer is said to have access to God through the Spirit (Eph. 2:18; cf. Rom. 8:26–27).

b. However, these ideas are Christocentric. Paul’s writings are dominated by a rich ‘in Christ’ mysticism, and his understanding of ‘salvation’ is summarized in such passages as Galatians 2:19–20: ‘I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me’ (nrsv, cf. 1 Cor. 12:13; 2 Cor. 5:17; Phil. 1:21; 3:10, etc.). Christ, as much as the Father, is the indwelling, self-revealing presence of God, but only through uoothe Spirit of God, now experienced as the Spirit of Christ (Rom. 8:9–11; Phil. 1:19; cf. Gal. 4:6).

If salvation is above all ‘union with Christ’, that union is effected and maintained only through the Spirit. The corollary is stated in Romans 8:9b: ‘anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, that person does not belong to him’. Fundamentally, then, the Spirit is ‘the Spirit of adoption/sonship’ (Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8:15).

So we see that God is one but in three persons operating in perfect unity fulfilling different functional roles, exactly what scripture teaches and exactly what the doctrine of the Trinity states.
John 13 v 17-20

Jesus said.." Even the SPIRIT of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: BUT YOU KNOW HIM for he dwelleth in you. I will not leave you COMFORTLESS; I WILL COME TO YOU.

Yet a little while, and the world SEETH ME NO MORE; BUT YE SHALL ME, because I Live, Ye shall live also.

At that day Ye shall know That I AM IN MY FATHER, and you in me, AND I IN YOU"

So here we see the Unity of The Three and not One of Three.

In verse 18 Jesus tells his Apostles he would not leave them COMFORTLESS, that he would come to them. In verse 26, Jesus tells US That The Comforter is the Holy Ghost, and since Jesus said he would come to them with the COMFORTER which verse 26 tells US is The Holy Ghost, means Jesus is The Comforter and The Holy Ghost. Or do you think the Comforter goes in the Apostles, and Jesus stays outside watching all this take place???

Verse 20; Jesus tells US he is IN HIS FATHER, and Jesus further says in That verse; "And I IN YOU" this further strengthens One Ness position...Because if The Holy Ghost is The Comforter, and Jesus comes as well, and The FATHER will be in The Apostles as well as THE COMFORTER (The Holy Ghost) and Jesus with The Comforter, then in verse 20 Jesus tells US His Father will be INSIDE his Apostles, then Jesus finally states he Would be IN THEM.....then Boys and Girls....there is only one logical conclusion; THE THREE are in REALITY ONE. Where does anybody logically see "Three Persons" in those verses???

Yes indeed, there is a Father, Son, and Holy Ghost but they are in reality not "Persons" they are in reality 3 relationships to humanity. They do not operate as "Independent contractors"

When Jesus said in John 10 v 30 "I, and My Father are ONE" be did'nt mean....

1 we both belong to ONE Political Party

2. We have the same Jobs.

3. we Are ONE FAMILY.

He said ONE as ONE AND THE SAME LORD, GOD.
 
R

Ricke

Guest
All
Don't you like this Poll reads? With The Trinity folks leading 39-6? OK I Concede you guys win this Battle, but we will win The War....Praise God!
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
I've been accurate. Sometimes when arrogant people are being corrected they can construe it as rudeness. Rest assured God's love is in effect for all :). Peace and may God bless you in some way today from His storehouse of orthodox wisdom and truth.
Well, accurate is not enough. The scribes and pharisees were accurate, even to following the Law to tithing of their dill harvest. (Have you ever harvested dill?) But they left out compassion. Paul wrote that we are not to have any association with evil doers, those who commit adultery, who rob and steal, who murder and those sort of things. But the true test of love, as God loves us, is to overlook the other person's faults, to not even take notice of them, and to intercede for them with God. This is after all how God deals with us, if we are His. Jesus loves us, and draws us near to God through Himself, interceding for us always with God, that we become more like Him.

I have read most of your posts here, and I could not say those things to another who believes in Jesus, not even to another who did not believe in Jesus. The strongest rebukes that Jesus had for anyone, which we often forget, was to the religious who thought they were right because of correct knowledge. They accused Jesus of a deeper form of heresy, blasphemy, because He claimed to be God's Son. In their minds, according to their knowledge, this made Jesus to be equal with God, because in the Jewish mind, the son is equal to the father. Even worse, He claimed to be the only born Son of God, which made Him to be above everyone else who ever lived, even greater than Abraham or Moses. Of course, He told them that He was there before Abraham. They said that they were of Abraham's seed. His answer? They were of their father the devil.

They were right according to their knowledge. No one could have been born of God, be His Son. But they were wrong in that they condemned Him outright, without cause. Why without cause? So what if one claims to be God's Son? What fault is that in the Law? And so it is with this discussion. It is considered wrong that one does not believe in the accepted way about the nature of God. But first, it is not said anywhere in scripture that we are to even chastise those who have what we consider a wrong view of God's nature. We are certainly not to condemn them. Secondly, it is not of the Spirit to condemn those who do not see God's nature as we do. There is no compassion in doing so.

I have found that as I grow into Jesus Christ, that my view of God changes, because He is bigger than any words to describe Him, bigger than any thought which can see Him. We are barely able to behold Him at all, and this only because of the love of God Himself for us, sending His Son to be a sacrifice for us. The writer of Hebrews went all "spiritual" on us in chapter 6, verses 7 & 8, saying: For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

The ground that drinks the rain is our hearts, and the rain is God's love.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
The scribes and Pharisees were not accurate VW. That is a false assertion you just made. Jesus corrected them on a great many points exactly because they were inaccurate. Now Jesus, of course, was accurate. Given that Jesus is the second person of the Godhead, look at how both Jesus (and the Apostles) dealt with false teachers who invented new heresies. I can read that and see you on the sidelines there aiming your post at Paul for example. Well meaning on your part but very much misguided.

And of course I am loving. My heart is full of God's agape love. I'm singing right now with a new song Jesus put in my heart. But I am also accurate and enjoy apologetics and debates. Those sticks by the way that go into the fire aren't loving spiritually born orthodox historically accurate Christians like myself friend.

So thank you but no thank you VW. Your post reflects your own misunderstandings, does not reflect Jesus and the Apostles attitude toward false teachers who made up and taught heresy, and really is your own judgemental spirit being projected.

I do forgive you though for both your error and your critical judgmental spirit toward me. May God bless you richly and love you and lead you into all wisdom and truth. I know he loves us all. Peace.


Well, accurate is not enough. The scribes and pharisees were accurate, even to following the Law to tithing of their dill harvest. (Have you ever harvested dill?) But they left out compassion. Paul wrote that we are not to have any association with evil doers, those who commit adultery, who rob and steal, who murder and those sort of things. But the true test of love, as God loves us, is to overlook the other person's faults, to not even take notice of them, and to intercede for them with God. This is after all how God deals with us, if we are His. Jesus loves us, and draws us near to God through Himself, interceding for us always with God, that we become more like Him.

I have read most of your posts here, and I could not say those things to another who believes in Jesus, not even to another who did not believe in Jesus. The strongest rebukes that Jesus had for anyone, which we often forget, was to the religious who thought they were right because of correct knowledge. They accused Jesus of a deeper form of heresy, blasphemy, because He claimed to be God's Son. In their minds, according to their knowledge, this made Jesus to be equal with God, because in the Jewish mind, the son is equal to the father. Even worse, He claimed to be the only born Son of God, which made Him to be above everyone else who ever lived, even greater than Abraham or Moses. Of course, He told them that He was there before Abraham. They said that they were of Abraham's seed. His answer? They were of their father the devil.

They were right according to their knowledge. No one could have been born of God, be His Son. But they were wrong in that they condemned Him outright, without cause. Why without cause? So what if one claims to be God's Son? What fault is that in the Law? And so it is with this discussion. It is considered wrong that one does not believe in the accepted way about the nature of God. But first, it is not said anywhere in scripture that we are to even chastise those who have what we consider a wrong view of God's nature. We are certainly not to condemn them. Secondly, it is not of the Spirit to condemn those who do not see God's nature as we do. There is no compassion in doing so.

I have found that as I grow into Jesus Christ, that my view of God changes, because He is bigger than any words to describe Him, bigger than any thought which can see Him. We are barely able to behold Him at all, and this only because of the love of God Himself for us, sending His Son to be a sacrifice for us. The writer of Hebrews went all "spiritual" on us in chapter 6, verses 7 & 8, saying: For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

The ground that drinks the rain is our hearts, and the rain is God's love.
 
Last edited:
D

Dmurray

Guest
The scribes and Pharisees were not accurate VW. That is a false assertion you just made. Jesus corrected them on a great many points. Now Jesus, of course, was accurate. Look how both Jesus and the Apostles dealt with false teachers who invented new heresies. Immediately you have a plethora of misunderstandings.

Add to these your charge that I'm not loving. Of course I am loving. My heart is full of God's agape love. But I am also accurate and enjoy apologetics and debates.

Thank you but no thank you VW. Your post is based on misunderstandings, does not reflect Jesus and the Apostles attitude toward false teachers who made up and taught heresy, and really is your own judgemental spirit being projected.

I do forgive you though for both your error and your critical judgmental spirit toward me. May God bless you richly and love you and lead you into all wisdom and truth. I know he loves us all. Peace.
I thought they were accurate on their understanding. However Jesus came to elaborate on things and explain it better.

Maybe I'm wrong though.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
Dmurray: On the teen forum, I show the statement that you made that is that of a modalist.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
The scribes and Pharisees were not accurate VW. That is a false assertion you just made. Jesus corrected them on a great many points exactly because they were inaccurate. Now Jesus, of course, was accurate. Given that Jesus is the second person of the Godhead, look at how both Jesus (and the Apostles) dealt with false teachers who invented new heresies. I can read that and see you on the sidelines there aiming your post at Paul for example. Well meaning on your part but very much misguided.

And of course I am loving. My heart is full of God's agape love. I'm singing right now with a new song Jesus put in my heart. But I am also accurate and enjoy apologetics and debates. Those sticks by the way that go into the fire aren't loving spiritually born orthodox historically accurate Christians like myself friend.

So thank you but no thank you VW. Your post reflects your own misunderstandings, does not reflect Jesus and the Apostles attitude toward false teachers who made up and taught heresy, and really is your own judgemental spirit being projected.

I do forgive you though for both your error and your critical judgmental spirit toward me. May God bless you richly and love you and lead you into all wisdom and truth. I know he loves us all. Peace.

The scribes and pharisees were accurate, in their following of the letter of the Law. They were masters at the Law. They did not understand nor did they want love.

I am not judging you. I am making a heart felt cry that you stop and listen to the tone of your words. I cannot judge anyone, as I am worthless, a sinner by nature saved by God's grace.