Trinity vs. Oneness

livingbygrace · Apr 24, 2010

If Jesus claimed to be God the Father you would be able to show me a scripture where he actually made this claim, but you cannot.

And I ask again what is your interpretation of Paul's words in 1Cor15:24-28. Pauil said that Jesus would be subject to God the Father.

And why did God the Father claim to be Jesus God?

jasonfight7 · Apr 24, 2010

livingbygrace said:

I did show you Jesus claim but somehow you overlooked it. I will show it again

Jesus said "I and the Father are one" Again, Jesus claiming to be the Father.

Plus, in John 14:10

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Jesus is again claiming to be the Father.

The most important verse in the whole bible is in Isa. 9:6

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

So this child is the Everlasting Father, who is this child? The child is Jesus. Wonderful Counselor as Jesus said it the Holy Spirit, who is the child Jesus. That three of them already....

-----------------

As for Paul, if Jesus is God but not the Father, then we are worshiping two gods, The Father and Jesus. For the Lord thy God is One. Not Two, Not Three

Servanthood · Apr 24, 2010

jasonfight7 said:

I believe you got this mixed up my friend. Let me explain this in simpler terms! Ex: An egg..

Take 1 Egg, but this 1 Egg has three to it. The Shell, inner shell, then the yolk, but yet, still one Egg. What that, how can that be? I don't know, it's just 1 Egg.

Jesus is not the Father, but Jesus is God.
The Father is not Jesus, but the Father is God.
The Holy Spirit is not Jesus, but is God.

But yet, One GOD. But three distinctive person in one.

And when did the statement Jesus made, "Me and my Father are one" became "I am the Father?"
I don't understand why your twisting the words of Jesus around. Jesus didn't say, "I AM THE FATHER." He said, Me and my Father are ONE. ONE GOD. Like 1 John says, "there are three that bear record in heaven, and these three are ONE." I gave you many scripture, it's up to you to pray and ask the Lord what is the truth. BUT if you have this mindset of, "I am right." You won't find the truth, because you already gave yourself a truth. Peace be with ya! Take care.

jasonfight7 · Apr 24, 2010

Servanthood Quoted

And when did the statement Jesus made, "Me and my Father are one" became "I am the Father?"
I don't understand why your twisting the words of Jesus around. Jesus didn't say, "I AM THE FATHER." He said, Me and my Father are ONE. ONE GOD. Like 1 John says, "there are three that bear record in heaven, and these three are ONE." I gave you many scripture, it's up to you to pray and ask the Lord what is the truth. BUT if you have this mindset of, "I am right." You won't find the truth, because you already gave yourself a truth. Peace be with ya! Take care.[/QUOTE]

Ok first, I am not twisting the words of Christ. I didn't even type (Jesus say " I AM THE FATHER). Jesus said I and the Father One"

I believe that Jesus is The Father, if you don't accept it, please respect it.

livingbygrace · Apr 24, 2010

jasonfight7 said:

F0irstly I notice that you have still been unable to answer Paul's words in 1Cor15:24-28

You say that when Jesus said. 'I and the Father are one.' this proves he is claiming to be God the Father. This is completely and utterly wrong, andf the danger of us surmising what scripture means. We must go by the written word, not our own human interpretation.

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who may believe in me through their message. That all of them may be one Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May tyhey also be in us. so that the world may believe you have sent me.
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one. John17:20-22

So how can we be one as believers just as Jesus is in His Father and His Father is in Him? Can you actually be in me and I in you? No. The only way this can happen is in the Spirit.

That they may be one, as we are one.

How can we as believers be one? Can you and I be one person? No we cannotr. The only way we can bev one is in the Spirit. Therefore this is how Jesus and God are one, they are not literally one being.

That they may be one as we are one.

We must be careful not to jump according to what we read and thereby get the true meaning of scripture wrong.

In relation to Isiaih9:6

Spurgeon said that Jesus is our Father of the New Covenant, but in relation to the trinity he is the son.

Paul said that Abraham is the father of all who have not been circumcised but believe. Jesus said that people were called God's to whom the message of God came. I suppose with a bity of human reasoning I could therefore say that Abraham was a mighty God and everlasting Father of the believer who is accepted by faith.

We reaslly must be careful in our understanding of scripture. To go against plain, emphatic statements in the Bible, believing that our interpretation of other scripture must still be correct I suggest is Biblically impossible

jasonfight7 · Apr 24, 2010

I believe that Jesus is Father, you don't have to accept it but please respect my beliefs

livingbygrace · Apr 24, 2010

jasonfight7 said:

I respect your right to have your own belief, but I cannot respect that belief

jasonfight7 · Apr 24, 2010

livingbygrace said:

Then I'm sorry, all you can do is pray for me

Dmurray · Apr 24, 2010

Servanthood said:

Did Jesus not say I am Come in my Fathers Name?
Jesus' Name is obviously Jesus
and The Holy Ghost was Sent in Jesus' Name

From these three, I think we can conclude that all three have the Name of Jesus.

Back to your egg analogy. The Egg shell is not a separate part from the Egg right? They are all ONE egg.

That analogy speaks for Oneness. Each part of the Egg has a different Role; But they are one Egg.

Dmurray · Apr 24, 2010

Alright. I talked to my Pastor yesterday when he was over for supper about 1 Corinthians 15: 24-28:

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It's not that he is talking about 2 Distinct persons. It is that right now we must be saved by the name Jesus. Right? I think we can all agree on that.

So whenever we Get to Heaven will God need to play his role of our Savior? No. For we're all going to be saved.
Like I said, It's not that God is 3 or 2 separate beings, but he has different roles. He plays our "Father" and Our Savior

This is basically what he explained to me, it could be a little off since it was yesterday he explained it, and he went into detail about other things as well.

Dmurray · Apr 24, 2010

Father is not a name
Son is not a name
Holy Ghost is not a name

If someone founds a country, we call them the father right? This is a role.
Our Father in our household, is that his name? Definitely not. It is a role.
I'm the Son in the Household, is my name Son? Definitely not. It is a role.

See what I'm getting at?

I have three different roles, as we all do, we all have many more than three actually. But is each role or title a different being? Absolutely not.
Why would God be any different, if we are made in his own image.

1Timothy 3:16 Clearly says "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

God made himself to be a human, so he may redeem us by his blood. Without a blood sacrifice we cannot be redeemed right? It would have had to been Gods blood as he is perfect.

Jesus has all the attributes of Jehovah or Yaway(Spelling) God, they're all just names right.

I would like some scriptual evidence that shows that God is three co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent beings.

1. Is the word trinity in the Bible? No.
2. Does the Bible say that there are three persons in the Godhead? No.
3. Does the Bible speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Yes.
4. Do these titles as used in Matthew 28:19 mean that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead? No, they refer to three offices, roles, or relationship to humanity.
5. Does the Bible use the word three in reference to God? Only one verse in the entire Bible does so-I John 5:7. It speaks of the Father, the Word (instead of Son), and the Holy Ghost, and it concludes by saying, "These three are one."
6. Does the Bible use the word one in reference to God? Yes, many times. For example, see Zechariah 14:9; Malachi 2:10; Matthew 23:9; Mark 12:29, 32; John 8:41; 10:30; Romans 3:30; I Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; I Timothy 2:5; James 2:19.
7. Can the mystery of the Godhead be understood? Yes. Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16.
8. Has the Christian only one Heavenly Father? Yes. Matthew 23:9.
9. Then why did Jesus say to Philip, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9)? Because Jesus is the express image of God's person. Hebrews 1:3. The Greek word for personin this verse literally means "substance."
10. Does the Bible say that there are two persons in the Godhead? No.
11. Does the Bible say that all the Godhead is revealed in one person? Yes, in Jesus Christ. II Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:19; 2:9; Hebrews 1:3.
12. Is the mystery of the Deity hidden from some people? Yes. Luke 10:21-22.
13. Who is the Father? The Father is the one God, particularly as revealed in parental relationship to humanity. Deuteronomy 32:6; Malachi 2:10.
14. Where was God the Father while Jesus was on earth? The Father was in Christ. John 14:10; II Corinthians 5:19. He was also in heaven, for God is omnipresent.
15. Did the prophet Isaiah say that Jesus would be the Father? Yes. Isaiah 9:6; 63:16.
16. When God said, "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26), was He speaking to another person in the Godhead? No. Isaiah 44:24; Malachi 2:10.
17. How many of God's qualities were in Christ? All. Colossians 2:9.
18. How may we see the God who sent Jesus into the world? By seeing Jesus. John 12:44-45; 14:9.
19. Does the Bible say that Jesus is the Almighty? Yes. Revelation 1:8
20. Whom do some designate as the first person in the trinity? God the Father.
21. Whom do some designate as the last person in the trinity? The Holy Ghost. But Jesus said that He was the first and last. Revelation 1:17-18
22. How many persons did John see sitting on the throne in heaven? One. Revelation 4:2.
23. If Jesus is the first and the last, why did God say in Isaiah 44:6 that He was the first and the last? Because Jesus is the God of the Old Testament incarnate.
24. Did Jesus tell Satan that God alone should be worshipped? Yes. Matthew 4:10
25. Does the devil believe in more than one God? No. James 2:19.
26. Does the Bible say that God, who is the Word, was made flesh? Yes John 1:1, 14.
27. For what purpose was God manifested in the flesh? To save sinners. Hebrews 2:9, 14.
28. Was Jesus God manifested in the flesh? Yes. I Timothy 3:16.
29. Could Jesus have been on earth and in heaven at the same time? Yes. John 3:13.
30. Does the Bible say that there is but one Lord? Yes. Isaiah 45:18; Ephesians 4:5.
31. Does the Bible say that Christ is the Lord? Yes. Luke 2:11.
32. Does the Bible say that the Lord is God? Yes. I kings 18:39; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 2:39; Revelation 19:1.
33. How could the church belong to Jesus (Matthew 16:18) and yet be the church of God (I Corinthians 10:32)? Because Jesus is God in the flesh.
34. Will God give His glory to another? No. Isaiah 42:8.
35. Was there a God formed before Jehovah, or will there be one formed after? No. Isaiah 43:10.
36. What is one thing that God does not know? Another God. Isaiah 44:8.
37. What is one thing that God Cannot do? Lie. Titus 1:2.
38. How many Gods should we know? Only one. Hosea 13:4.
39. How many names has the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9.
40. Is it good to think upon the name of the Lord? Yes. Malachi 3:16.
41. Does the Bible say that God alone treads upon the waves of the sea? Yes. Job 9:8
42. Why, then, was Jesus able to walk upon the Sea of Galilee (Matthew 14:25)? Because He is God the Creator. Colossians 1:16.
43. Is God the only one who can forgive sin? Yes. Isiah 43:25; Mark 2:7.
44. Why, then, could Jesus forgive sin in Mark 2:5-11? Because He is God the Savior.
45. Is Jesus the true God? Yes. I John 5:20.
46. If God and the Holy Ghost are two separate persons, which was the Father of Christ? Matthew 1:20 says that the Holy Ghost was the Father, while Romans 15:6, II Corinthians 11:31, and Ephesians 1:3 say that God was the Father. There is no contradiction when we realize that God the Father and the Holy Ghost are one and the same Spirit. Matthew 10:20; Ephesians 4:4; I Corinthians 3:16.
47. When Paul asked the Lord who He was, what was the answer? "I am Jesus." Acts 9:5.
48. When Stephen was dying, did he call God Jesus? Yes. Acts 7:59.
49. Did Thomas ever call Jesus God? Yes. John 20:28.
50. How could Jesus be the Savior, when God the Father said in Isaiah 43:11, "Beside me there is no Savior?" Because "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." II Corinthians 5:19.
51. Does the Bible say that Jesus was God with us? Yes. Matthew 1:23.
52. Did Jesus ever say, "I and my Father are one?" Yes. John 10:30.
53. Can it be proved scripturally that Jesus and the Father are one in the same sense that husband and wife are one? No. The Godhead was never compared to the relationship of a husband and wife. Jesus identified Himself with the Father in a way that husband and wife cannot be identified with each other. John 14:9-11.
54. Does the Bible say that there is only one wise God? Yes. Jude 25.
55. Does the Bible call the Holy Ghost a second or third person in the Godhead? No. The Holy Ghost is the one Spirit of God, the one God Himself at work in our lives. John 4:24; I Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; 12:13.
56. Can Trinitarians show that three divine persons were present when Jesus was baptized by John? Absolutely not. The one, omnipresent God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person was present--Jesus Christ the Lord.
57. Then what were the other two of whom Trinitarians speak? One was a voice from heaven; the other was the Spirit of God in the form of a dove. Matthew 3:16-17.
58. What did the voice say at Jesus' baptism? "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Mark 1:11. As the Son of God, Jesus was the one God incarnate.
59. Does the Bible say that God shed His blood and that God laid down His life for us? Yes. Acts 20:28; I John 3:16. God was able to do this because He had taken upon Himself a human body.
60. The Bible says that God is coming back with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5) and also that Jesus is coming back with all his saints (I Thessalonians 3:13). Are two coming back? No. Only one is coming back--our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13.

livingbygrace · Apr 24, 2010

Dmurray said:

If your Pastor does not believe that 1Cor15:24-28 is speaking of Jesus and His Father as two seperate beings rather than one, I would respectfully suggest your Pastor is at the least bending scripture. That is impossible to say based on what is actually written. How can God the Father become subject to Himself? It makes no sense, and that is only one part of what is written

Dmurray · Apr 24, 2010

I think right now, we're just arguing for arguments sake. This is a debate that has been going on for years. It will not be solved unless God himself writes on this forum. God doesn't want us to debate or argue.

We both think that the other person is bending or twisting scripture or taking it out of context or something to that effect.

With that said, I am withdrawing from this topic.

I just ask to not think that you or I am right, and that we just keep praying about it and seeking after God for him to reveal himself to us.

God Bless Brothers.

livingbygrace · Apr 24, 2010

Dmurray said:

Well please tell me where I am bending scripture.

You know I went to a church which I found when I actually read the Bible did not teach all of the truth that was in it. I decided to go by the Bible, not the minister of the church I grew up in

Dmurray · Apr 24, 2010

I did not grow up in the Church, far from it. But I have prayed and God has revealed himself to me through his words and by what he put in my heart.

Also that last statement comes off very self-righteous if I can say that.

I will keep you all in my prayers. God Bless.

livingbygrace · Apr 24, 2010

Dmurray said:

Well I am sorry if it sounds self righteous to say I go by the Bible above man, but I sincerely believe that is what I must do.

Dmurray · Apr 24, 2010

No its that you said. I did this , I went here, I found this.

God led you there, God shows us in the Bible.

Is what I meant.

livingbygrace · Apr 24, 2010

Dmurray said:

I don't think I used the words you are suggesting. I do believe that God through the Spirit shows us the truth in His word. But I genuinely do believe it is very difficult for some because not all ministers preach what is actually written in the Bible. I would imagine you accept that. Would there not be some ministers you would not agree with?

GraceBeUntoYou · Apr 24, 2010

Dmurray said:

Because people have not read the post I've linked, I've copied it here. This is the exact copy of a post I made regarding this issue, take the time to read it, because I have addressed all of these issues you've raised. The question that I was answering was, 'Is Jesus God?' Pay particular attention to paragraphs 13 through 17, which gives an illustration of the triune God:

Yes, Jesus is God, but to say Jesus is the Father as some claim, is a false assertion. This post is intended to defend the Doctrine of the Trinity, to make a clear distinction of what the Trinity is (which most people mistaken for a Oneness Theology approach), and to help people who hold to a Oneness approach see the Trinity in the Scriptures. The Trinity states: God is three Persons (not to be confused with 'Being'), whom subsides in the One Being (not to be confused with 'Persons'), whom are co-equal.

With that said, the Son/Word pre-existed WITH the Father, you have heard it said, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.' -- John 1:1-2

This is also emphasized in John 17:5, which states, 'Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.'

The Father did not take the flesh. The pre-incarnate Son (whom is God) took the flesh, as it is written, 'And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.' This same concept is reiterated in John 4:2-3, 'By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.' How can one 'come in the flesh' without existing beforehand?

So we conclude that Jesus Christ, the Son from all Eternity, whom was always with the Father, took the flesh. It is to my understanding that Oneness Theology denies the Eternal existence of Christ, because they view the Person of the Son as a mere creation at Bethlehem. To that, I would like to look at two pieces of Scripture that are commonly misused to prove Jesus as being created, as cited in a previous post of mine:

1.) Firstly, let us look at Colossians 1:15, which states, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."

According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, the word 'firstborn' (Greek: prototokos) is an adjective. While in a literal sense, it can denote the first that comes from the womb, but frequently is an expression of supremacy, not chronological order.

Psalms 89:27, God said in regards to David, that He would appoint David to be His 'firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.' Also in Jeremiah 31:9, where Ephraim is called the Lord's 'firstborn,' although, Manasseh was Ephraim's older brother, the 'firstborn' from the womb (Genesis 48:14). In this context, and as shown in Genesis 48:19, as well as Psalms 89:27, the term 'firstborn' is a title of superiority, of supremacy. The term 'firstborn' in Colossians 1:15 does not refer to an actual physical birth, but rather, refers to Christ's position of supremacy. Colossians 1:15 has absolutely nothing to do with Christ being 'created.' Colossians 1:18 goes on to Jesus is 'the beginning.'

2.) Secondly, let us examine Revelation 3:14-15, which states, “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.’”

‘Beginning’ here, translates from the Greek word ‘arche,’ meaning ‘the origin,’ ‘the active cause,’ ‘that by which anything begins to be,’ ‘leader,’ ‘the person or thing that commences,’ ‘magistracy,’ ‘rule.’ Revelation 3:14 does not in anyway teach that Christ was created. Ironically, it teaches that He is the ‘active cause,’ ‘the origin’ of all creation, that He is the Creator, the source of all things, the Beginning of all things. As Micah 5:2, a Messianic prophecy puts it, ‘But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of ETERNITY.’

To further prove the Eternal existence of Christ, He said in John 8:58, "Truly, truly, I say unto you, before Abraham was born, I am." Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, 'Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.'" The 'I am' denoted absolute eternal existence, it is a claim to be Yahweh of the Old Testament. The Jews understood the significance of this claim, and it's clear in their reaction, when they picked up stones against Christ. John 10:29-33 also make note of a similar incident, "The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.'"

In addition, refer to Isaiah 48:16, which says, “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

The speaker in Isaiah 48:16 is obviously God, (refer to verses 11 and 12, “For My Own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another… I am He, I am the first, I am also the last&#8221

, and yet He says He has been sent by God [the Father]. This is clearly in reference to the pre-incarnate Christ. Cross reference Isaiah 48:12 with what Christ also said in Revelation 1:17-18, and Revelation 22:12-13, 16 in His claim to be the 'first and the last,' the 'Alpha and the Omega.' A question for those who hold to Oneness doctrine, did the Father send Himself, or did He send the Son? Jesus (Father) is going to send Himself (Son), and also send Himself (Holy Spirit) again? How much sense does that make? Absolutely none! With that said, we can further conclude that Jesus is the Eternal Son, and pre-existed with the Eternal Father, along with the Eternal Spirit. God the Father sent God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit – three Persons subsiding in One Godhead.

I tend to use Galatians 3:28 as an illustration to help ‘paint’ the Trinity. It says, ‘There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.’ Likewise, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One in the Godhead, One God, not three.

Another way of looking at it is pictured in Mark 10:6-8, which states, ‘But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.’

That’s not to say that the husband and wife become one in person, as in numerical value. I wholly believe that what Christ said in reference to Genesis 2:24 (‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh&#8217

can completely be applied to the Trinity, to the Godhead. The reason for that is because the term used in Genesis 2:24 for the word ‘one’ is the Hebrew word ‘echad,’ which in this context means ‘unified,' 'compound unity.' And though 'echad' does not always mean 'compound unity,' it at times does. With that said 'echad,' which is used as a compound unity in Genesis 2:24, is also used in Deuteronomy 6:4, which states, ‘Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!’ While in light of the whole of Scriptures, 'echad,' in terms of Deuteronomy 6:4 does seem to make reference to a compound unity when referring to Genesis 1:26, John 1:1, John 17:5, Hebrews 1:8-12.

For those who would deny the Trinity, Psalm 45:6-7 (c.f. Hebrews 1:8-10) states, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, YOUR GOD, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.' If Jesus is the Father, then does even the God have a god? The same question holds to any Jehovah Witness that may be floating on the boards: if Jesus isn't God, who is the Father speaking to? Another god? And my answer to that is this: absolutely preposterous! Who is able to say there is a god higher than God Himself?

Revelation 5:4-7 states, "Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders said to me, 'Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.' And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. AND HE CAME AND TOOK THE BOOK OUT OF THE RIGHT HAND OF HIM WHO SAT ON THE THRONE.' So let me get this straight, the Lamb, who is Jesus, whom you also proclaim as the Father, is going to take the book out of who’s hands? If Jesus is the Father, who's sitting on the throne?

When we apply the Doctrine of the Trinity, the questions that I've posed suddenly make sense:

1.) Q: If Jesus is the Father, who was He praying to in John 17:11, Luke 10:21, Luke 9:18?

A: Jesus isn't the Father, He is the Eternal Son whom is completely 100% God, and He prayed to the Eternal Father whom is completely 100% God, in Spirit whom is completely 100% God. These three Persons are One in Being, One in Essence, One in the Godhead. Refer to the above for the illustrations posed for this view.

2.) Q: If Jesus is the Father, then does even God have a god ('...Therefore God, YOUR GOD, has anointed You...')?

A: Since Psalm 45:6-7 is speaking of the Eternal Father UNTO the Eternal Son, it all makes sense now -- God the Father speaking of God the Son. The Father does not have a god, and Christ was not formed or created at Bethlehem, but rather, is from all Eternity. Christ said in John 20:17, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" This is all explained with proper knowledge of the Trinity, and the subordination within. Subordination does not mean that Members of the Godhead are not co-equal. Christ is equal to His Father, yet also voluntarily took on a subordinate role, and is shown in the verse above, Philippians 2:5-7, John 4:34, John 5:30, and Hebrews 10:5-10. Philippians 2:5-7 states, 'Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.'

You can not understand this text without understanding first that Christ pre-existed. For how can He empty Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant, if He had not existed beforehand?

3.) Q: What does Genesis 1:26 suggest? Genesis 1:26 says, “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.’"

A: The terms ‘Us,’ and ‘Our’ are plural, not singular. This is not in reference to angels as some anti-Trinitarians claim, or otherwise, you would be suggesting that angels AND God equally created us, when it is God ALONE who is Creator. The ‘Us,’ and ‘Our’ are in reference to the three Persons of the Godhead. If Christ be the Father, it would read something along the lines, “Then God said, ‘I will make man according to My image, according to My likeness…’” Also see Genesis 3:22, and Genesis 11:7. With these verses in mind, it now crystallizes everything said thus far, that Christ was the Eternal Son and co-existed WITH the Father (John 1:1-2), what it meant when Jesus said, in John 17:5, ‘Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was,’ what is being said in Isaiah 48:16, and Psalm 45:6-7. It deeply sorrows me to see that people would give mere ANGELS more credit in creation than they would the King of Glory!

This all can also be seen in the baptism of Christ, as Christ was brought up from the water, and the Spirit of God descended down, and simultaneously, at the same time, a voice out of heaven (God the Father) saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.'

GraceBeUntoYou · Apr 24, 2010

Dmurray said:

Are you seriously suggesting that Jesus had a carnal mind? If that be said, the sacrifice is null void, for even a persons thoughts are sinful. You have heard it said, 'He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.' -- 2 Corinthians 5:21 (c.f. 1 Peter 2:22, 1 John 3:5)

In regards to the Holy Spirit, you argue He has no hands. I'd like you to refer to Acts 5:1-4,

"But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.'"

Verse three claims that Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, yet, verse four claims that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. You can not lie to a shoe. You can not lie to a tree. You can not lie to a hand, or a foot. You can not lie to a doll. You can not lie to an impersonal power. You can only lie to an operative personality. Can an impersonal power talk? Do trees talks? Do shoes talk?

Acts 13:2, "While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, 'Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.'" Who called them? '...I have called them.'

Have you ever noticed who raised Christ from the dead? Scripture tells us that the Father raised Christ from the dead (Galatians 1:1, 1 Thessalonians 1:10), that Christ raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21), and that the Holy Spirit raised Christ from the dead (Romans 8:11). God raised Jesus from the dead -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

"Therefore Pilate said to Him, 'So You are a king?' Jesus answered, 'You say correctly that I am a king For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.'" -- John 18:37

Trinity vs. Oneness

Are you Trinitarian, or Sabellian (Oneness, usually, Oneness Pentecostal)?

Trinitarian

Sabellion

What's the difference?

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