Trinity?

[newbirth]

I and the Father are One! (John 10.30)

If you are consistent in your reasoning, then you must admit that The Son is The Father.







πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος

that does not prove god is a trinity....because you cannot find in scripture where baptism was done that way...it is always in the name of Jesus....so we must conclude your trinity friends put that there or the disciples openly disregard a command from the Lord....
same as this...

Question: "What is the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7-8)?"

Answer: The Comma Johanneum, also known as the Comma Johannine, is a textual variant in regards to 1 John 5:7-8. The word comma simply means “short clause,” and Johanneum means “pertaining to John.” Without the “comma,” 1 John 5:7-8 reads, “For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.” With the “comma,” 1 John 5:7-8 reads, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” If the Comma Johanneum was originally part of 1 John 5:7-8, it would be the clearest and most direct reference to the Trinity in the entire Bible.

However, it is highly unlikely that the Comma Johanneum was originally a part of 1 John. None of the oldest Greek manuscripts of 1 John contain the comma, and none of the very early church fathers include it when quoting or referencing 1 John 5:7-8. The presence of the Comma Johanneum in Greek manuscripts is actually quite rare until the 15th century A.D. It is primarily found in Latin manuscripts. While some of the Latin manuscripts containing the Comma Johanneum are ancient, the Comma Johanneum did not appear in the original Latin Vulgate written by Jerome.​

Read more: What is the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7-8)?

 

[Bowman]

that does not prove god is a trinity....because you cannot find in scripture where baptism was done that way...it is always in the name of Jesus....so we must conclude your trinity friends put that there or the disciples openly disregard a command from the Lord....

The verse I quoted does indeed prove The Trinity.

It is proof that the ONE Name of God is the same for Father, Son, Spirit.

Three Persons; One Being.

The Trinity.

If you were at all familiar with the OT(which you are not), then you would see that this is the very same as the Aaronic blessing of Yahweh.

That is why the formula was proclaimed by God The Son, and subsequently used in His Name, as His Name is the same as The Father & The Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, I only needed ONE verse to prove my position...whereas you vainly attempted to kluge together numerous verses, from here and there, to somehow 'support' your bogus claim....after you just finished ranting that The Trinity needed to be a mass collection of scattered scripture.

Again...you practice inconsistent behavior and hypocrisy.

same as this...

Question: "What is the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7-8)?"

Answer: The Comma Johanneum, also known as the Comma Johannine, is a textual variant in regards to 1 John 5:7-8. The word comma simply means “short clause,” and Johanneum means “pertaining to John.” Without the “comma,” 1 John 5:7-8 reads, “For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.” With the “comma,” 1 John 5:7-8 reads, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” If the Comma Johanneum was originally part of 1 John 5:7-8, it would be the clearest and most direct reference to the Trinity in the entire Bible.

However, it is highly unlikely that the Comma Johanneum was originally a part of 1 John. None of the oldest Greek manuscripts of 1 John contain the comma, and none of the very early church fathers include it when quoting or referencing 1 John 5:7-8. The presence of the Comma Johanneum in Greek manuscripts is actually quite rare until the 15th century A.D. It is primarily found in Latin manuscripts. While some of the Latin manuscripts containing the Comma Johanneum are ancient, the Comma Johanneum did not appear in the original Latin Vulgate written by Jerome.​

Read more: What is the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7-8)?

1 John 5.7 is already known to not be original in the text, by any serious scholar...and I have never used it to promote my position....so why even bring it up?

Even plagiarizing google won't help your depraved worldview...

 

[newbirth]

The verse I quoted does indeed prove The Trinity.

It is proof that the ONE Name of God is the same for Father, Son, Spirit.

Three Persons; One Being.

The Trinity.

If you were at all familiar with the OT(which you are not), then you would see that this is the very same as the Aaronic blessing of Yahweh.

That is why the formula was proclaimed by God The Son, and subsequently used in His Name, as His Name is the same as The Father & The Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, I only needed ONE verse to prove my position...whereas you vainly attempted to kluge together numerous verses, from here and there, to somehow 'support' your bogus claim....after you just finished ranting that The Trinity needed to be a mass collection of scattered scripture.

Again...you practice inconsistent behavior and hypocrisy.







1 John 5.7 is already known to not be original in the text, by any serious scholar...and I have never used it to promote my position....so why even bring it up?

Even plagiarizing google won't help your depraved worldview...

I am almost certain ,if my memory serves me right..you brought it up sometime ago as part of your defence and I refuted it...but I could be wrong...so I give you the benefit of the doubt...you quote verses and use your imagination to invoke a trinity...scripture teaches we are baptised in the name of Jesus...we are baptised into Christ.....for by one Spirit we are baptised into one body...... same Spirit same body....the body of Christ.....If the text in Matt 28.19 are legit..how come none of the apostles baptised in that manner??

 

[VCO]

Re: strawman...

no God is oneGod...trinity is three...

LAST TIME NEWBIRTH,


TRINITY is ONLY ONE GOD, stop misquoting our beliefs.

Theological term used to define God as an undivided unity expressed in the threefold nature of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. As a distinctive Christian doctrine, the Trinity is considered as a divine mystery beyond human comprehension to be reflected upon only through scriptural revelation. The Trinity is a biblical concept that expresses the dynamic character of God, not a Greek idea pressed into Scripture from philosophical or religious speculation. While the term “trinity” does not appear in Scripture, the trinitarian structure appears throughout the NT to affirm that God Himself is manifested through Jesus Christ by means of the Spirit.
. . .
1. God is One. The God of the OT is the same God of the NT. His offer of salvation in the OT receives a fuller revelation in the NT in a way that is not different but more complete. The doctrine of the Trinity does not abandon the monotheistic faith of Israel.
. . .

Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (from Latin trinitas "triad", from trinus "threefold")[SUP][1][/SUP] defines God as three consubstantial persons,[SUP][2][/SUP]expressions, or hypostases:[SUP][3][/SUP] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".[SUP][4][/SUP] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, while a "person" is who one is.[SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP][SUP][7][/SUP]According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths,[SUP][8][/SUP] there is only one God in three persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds") and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and "each is God, whole and entire".[SUP][9][/SUP] Accordingly, the whole work of creation and grace is seen as a single operation common to all three divine persons, in which each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, so that all things are "from the Father", "through the Son" and "in the Holy Spirit".[SUP][10][/SUP]
Terms such as "monotheism", "incarnation", "omnipotence", are not found in the Bible, but they denote theological concepts concerning Christian faith that are believed to be contained in the Bible. Even the term "Bible" is not found in the Bible. "Trinity" is another such term.[SUP][11][/SUP]

 

[Bowman]

I am almost certain ,if my memory serves me right..you brought it up sometime ago as part of your defence and I refuted it...but I could be wrong...so I give you the benefit of the doubt...

Your memory fails you.

Don't flatter yourself...

you quote verses and use your imagination to invoke a trinity...

I quote scripture, correct....and I defend them.

You, on the other hand, slavishly repost your same bakers' dozen pet Trinitarian-rendered English scriptures, over and over again....and then you run from defending them as you think they help your lame position.

Little wonder you go silent and run.

Not impressed.

scripture teaches we are baptised in the name of Jesus...we are baptised into Christ.....for by one Spirit we are baptised into one body...... same Spirit same body....the body of Christ.....

God in the flesh, Jesus, told us the Triune baptismal formula.

Deal with it...

If the text in Matt 28.19 are legit..how come none of the apostles baptised in that manner??

Mat 28.19 is original, and conclusive.

What's the matter....couldn't google ANY dirt on it?

You're a joke.

 

[Elected]

Past Church History and Present Christianity Today Believes about the Trinity! Again, this is accepted by all segments of the historic Church, including Eastern, Roman, Protestant and Orthodox Christianity.

We believe:

‘Within the nature of the one true God, there are three eternal, distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three persons are the one God ‘

The word Trinity is not found in the Bible!

The Bible never uses such words as Trinity, eternal Son, coequal, consubstantial, and three persons. These are theological terms not biblical ones. By ‘theological’ we mean that these are terms which best expresses what we believe the Bible teaches. By ‘not biblical’ we mean that the words itself is never used in Scripture. However, it is of course pure biblical teaching!

Let make a bold statement: ‘It is really naïve to object to the word itself is not found in the Scripture if the concept is found in Scripture and is taught in Scripture.’

 

[Elected]

You fail to understand John 1:1 about: "...the Word was God (theos)." Jesus was the Word (logos). The Word became flesh (Jesus). Jesus was God!

• John 1:1 (ESV) “In the beginning was the Word (Gr: Logos), and the Word (Logos) was with God (ho theos), and the Word (Logos) was God (theos).”

• John 1:3 (ESV) All things were made through him (Jesus), and without him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.

• John 1:10 (ISV) He (Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made through him (Jesus). Yet the world did not recognize him.

• John 1:14 (ISV) The Word (Jesus) became flesh and lived[e] among us. We gazed on his glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father’s uniquely existing Son,[f] who is full of grace and truth.

An Angel declares from God that Jesus is God (Immanuel)!

• Matthew 1: 23 (ISV) “See, a virgin will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and they will name him Immanuel,”[a) which means, “God (ho theos) with us.” Again, "God with us"

 

[Elected]

Dear cmkey7127,

Are you really interested to learn from the Bible about the Trinity? I am not interested in arguing! Let us start off what historical Christianity has taught.

We believe:

‘Within the nature of the one true God, there are three eternal, distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three persons are the one God ‘

This is statement (above) is accepted by all segments of the historic Church, including Eastern, Roman, Protestant and Orthodox Christianity.

Here are only a few of the earliest references to the creedal doctrine of the Trinity from the early Church:

• The Didache (35-60): “baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

• Irenaeus (115-190): “The Church . . . . [ believes ] in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God . . . and in the Holy Spirit.”

• Trtullian (190-200): “Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are one essence, not one Person.”

The word Trinity is not found in the Bible!

The Bible never uses such words as Trinity, eternal Son, coequal, consubstantial, and three persons. These are theological terms not biblical ones. By ‘theological’ we mean that these are terms which best expresses what we believe the Bible teaches. By ‘not biblical’ we mean that the words itself is never used in Scripture. However, it is of course pure biblical teaching!

Let me make a clear statement early: ‘It is really naïve to object to the word itself is not found in the Scripture if the concept is found in Scripture and is taught in Scripture.’

The Early Church History Creedal Beliefs: Monothestic!

The Trinity is monotheistic! Monotheism conveys the idea that there is only one God. (Again see, Exodus 3:14; Deuteronomy 6:4; John 17:3)

• Exodus 3:14 (ISV) And God said unto Moses, “I Am That I Am.” And He said, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ‘I Am hath sent me unto you.’”

• Deuteronomy 6:4 (NIV) Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

• John 17:3 (ISV) And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent—Jesus the Messiah.

The Bible teaches that there will never be any other uncreated, eternal, true God or God(s) to come into existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6-8; 1 Kings 8:59-60; Romans 3:29-30; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; Galatians 4:8).

• Isaiah 43:10 (ISV) “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and trust me and understand that I am the One. Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me.
• Isaiah 44:6-8 (ISV) (6) This is what the Lord says, the King of Israel and its Redeemer—the Lord of the Heavenly Armies is his name—[a] “I am the first and I am the last, and apart from me there is no God. (7) Who is like me? Let him proclaim and declare it, and lay it out for himself— since he made[c] an ancient people. And let him speak[d] future events; let them tell him what[e] will happen. (8) Don’t tremble, and don’t be afraid.[f] Didn’t I tell you and announce it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? There is no other Rock-- don’t know of any.”
  [*]1 Kings 8:59-60 (ISV) And may what I’ve had to say to the Lord remain with the Lord our God both day and night, so that he may defend the cause of his servant and the cause of his people Israel, as the need of the day may require it, 60 so that, in turn,[a] all the people of the earth may know that the Lord is God—there is no one else.
  [*]Romans 3;29-30 (ISV) (29) Is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of the gentiles, too? Yes, of the gentiles, too, (30) since there is only one God who will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised by that same faith.
  

• 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 (ISV) (4) Now concerning eating food offered to idols: We know that no idol is real in this world and that there is only one God. (5) For even if there are “gods” in heaven and on earth (as indeed there are many so-called “gods” and “lords”), (6) yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah,[a] through whom everything came into being and through whom we live.

• Galatians 4:8(ISV) However, In the past, when you did not know God, you were slaves to things that are not really gods at all.[a]

After all this reference from the Bible. Why do I believe in the Trinity? Do you want to understand? I don't believe because of the historical creeds. I believe because the Bible spells it out from Scripture. The men who wrote the creeds believed the Bible taught the Trinity. Why? I don't want to waste your time or mine if you are not open to understanding this Bible truth. I have outline that Christians are first Monothestic. Are we in agreement?

Your brother in Christ,

Jerry

 

[MarcR]

Well hello!
All you Christians out there I want YOUR opinion!

I have studied this doctrine defined as the Trinity, and I tend to see a lot of issues with it. So I am just curious is someone that actually knows anything about it. (Not what you have always been taught, But what you have Studied) Would give me a brief but intellectual standpoint on it, in hopes of a discussion. What is the Trinity in your own words? And from a biblical point of view Why do you believe it?

The word trinity means a unity of 3 parts. The Trinity River in Texas gets its name from the fact that it is formed from 3 distinct sources.

Jn 1:1-14
JOHN 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV

Here we clearly see two distinct members of the Godhead.


Jn 16:7-15
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
KJV


Here we see that the Holy Spirit has all the attributes of personhood.


Ge 1:1-2
GENESIS 1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
KJV


Here we see that the Holy Spirit is of God A person of God is a member of the Godhead by definition.

This is my basis for belief in a Trinity.

 

[Elected]

The Numerical Understanding of the Trinity?

The cult Jehovah Witness would object about the Trinity being numerically sound here. There objection would go like this: You Christians say you have God the Father (plus), God the Son (plus), God the Holy Spirit. 1+1+1=3 Gods. The problem: Wrong numerical formula! Lets try the right numerical formula: 1x1x1=1 God

Why do I classify Jehovah Witness a cult? They believe that Christ is not truly divine but a created being. Again, this was rejected by the early church. (The Arian heresy).

Why would I classify Mormonism a cult? They also believe the Arian heresy that Christ was not truly divine but a created being. They also believe Satan (a created being) is the brother of Jesus (a uncreated being). Major theological problem!

 

[MarcR]

The Numerical Understanding of the Trinity?

The cult Jehovah Witness would object about the Trinity being numerically sound here. There objection would go like this: You Christians say you have God the Father (plus), God the Son (plus), God the Holy Spirit. 1+1+1=3 Gods. The problem: Wrong numerical formula! Lets try the right numerical formula: 1x1x1=1 God

Why do I classify Jehovah Witness a cult? They believe that Christ is not truly divine but a created being. Again, this was rejected by the early church. (The Arian heresy).

Why would I classify Mormonism a cult? They also believe the Arian heresy that Christ was not truly divine but a created being. They also believe Satan (a created being) is the brother of Jesus (a uncreated being). Major theological problem!

The problem with such numerical error stems from (intentional) mis-translation of the Hebrew word translated as one!

Dt 6:4
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
KJV


The Hebrew word translated as one is אֶחָֽד ׁ(Echad) ; which signifies composite unity.

The spies sent to examine Jericho brought back one אֶחָֽד ׁ(Echad) cluster of grapes [one cluster many grapes) (Nu 13:23).

Understanding a unity of parts makes multiplication unnecessary.

A pod of 3 peas is still 1 pod of peas. A God of 3 distinct persons is still 1 God.

 

[JLHillsSr]

The verse I quoted does indeed prove The Trinity.

It is proof that the ONE Name of God is the same for Father, Son, Spirit.

Three Persons; One Being.

The Trinity.

If you were at all familiar with the OT(which you are not), then you would see that this is the very same as the Aaronic blessing of Yahweh.

That is why the formula was proclaimed by God The Son, and subsequently used in His Name, as His Name is the same as The Father & The Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, I only needed ONE verse to prove my position...whereas you vainly attempted to kluge together numerous verses, from here and there, to somehow 'support' your bogus claim....after you just finished ranting that The Trinity needed to be a mass collection of scattered scripture.

Again...you practice inconsistent behavior and hypocrisy.







1 John 5.7 is already known to not be original in the text, by any serious scholar...and I have never used it to promote my position....so why even bring it up?

Even plagiarizing google won't help your depraved worldview...

[Act 7:55 KJV] 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

 

[davidb87]

Im not a fan of the trinity no an opposer, but Jesus the Word Trinity itself was a tradition created over time.
The IDEA of trinity was always there.. but was it legit? Who knows.

Yes there is the father the son and spirit, but also there are verses in the King James bible that takes out the Trinity verse.
So its hard to make a final stand point. All i know is Jesus said to worship God alone, so i do that.

 

[MarcR]

There is no occurrence of the word Trinity in the Bible. The word Trinity means a unity of three parts.

While the word Trinity is an inference built from what we are told in Scripture, it is no less valid than it would be it it were specifically mentioned.

We are told in Deut 6:4
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
KJV

The word אֶחָֽד echad, which is translated 'one' does not signify absolute unity; but rather composite unity-- a unity of parts. There is a Hebrew word which does signify absolute unity יָֽחַד yawchad.

The word echad, which is translated as 'one' in Deut 6:4 is also found in Num 13:23
23 And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with one cluster of grapes, and they bare it between two upon a staff; and they brought of the pomegranates, and of the figs.
KJV

Here we see אֶשְׁכּ֤וֺל אֶחָֽד echad eshchol, one cluster of grapes. [note one cluster many grapes]

John 1:1-14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV

We know from context throughout Scripture that mention of God, without modifiers always refer to God the Father.

We see in verse 1, that the Word is with God and the Word was God

We see in verse 14 that the Word can only refer to Jesus.

From verse 1 and verse 14, we can properly infer that God is comprised of at least 2 persons:

1) God, the Father and 2) Jesus the son. [note that both Father and Son are mentioned in verse 14]

In Gen 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
KJV
we see that the Spirit is of God; and in John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
KJV
we see that the Holy spirit is a person.

Since the Spirit of God is a person We may infer from Jn 1:1, 1:14, and 16:13 that God, the Father; Jesus, the Son, and the Spirit of God comprise a Trinity, a unity of 3 parts.