Truth Revealed?

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Messenger_T

Senior Member
Apr 4, 2011
179
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#1
Why is it that everyone can say they have been given the truth from the Holy Spirit (God), YET; each one of them are telling a different ''truth'' than the other? I.E. Christian Religions, Denominations etc.

How, then, can we ''verify'' which IS the truth?

And, if we can verify it; then what is the source of this verification process?

Either there is one single person who knows the truth as it is given from GOD, (because people claiming and telling different ''truths'' can't all be from God-as they claim revealed through the Holy Spirit)or, there is a SINGLE truth that is given and it is given to ALL of us.



As it relates; everyone can CLAIM the Holy Spirit has revealed something to them (in which God cannot LIE nor decieve). I.E. Revelation, Unction, etc.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#2
the ultimate source of verification is God. the Bible lists some qualifications that would help with discernment. By their fruits they can be made known.

as for different versions of the "truth" if I told you the sky is blue, would it always be true?

what if its rainy? How about sunset or sunrise? Is the sky blue at night?

what if I told you that the sky had no inherent color and the concept of color is a construct of your eyes preception of various wavelengths of light that are reflected off an object and the object is actually absorbing the colors you do NOT see and you are just seeing the light the object doesn't want to observe?

my point is that some things are relative, but on the key important truths about the love and faithfulness of God most Christians will agree upon.
 

Messenger_T

Senior Member
Apr 4, 2011
179
3
18
#3
''what if I told you that the sky had no inherent color and the concept of color is a construct of your eyes preception of various wavelengths of light that are reflected off an object and the object is actually absorbing the colors you do NOT see and you are just seeing the light the object doesn't want to observe?''


God is not a perception.

Because you tell me that above statement, does this makes it the truth? How we perceive things does not make something the truth. Perception is often a clear violation of what something actually is. Because we percieve something as we think it is does not always make it the actual truth.

Scripture says that we are not to lean on our own understanding.

Is scripture not CLEAR in what it says? Are we then to ''perceive'' what it is we cannot see?

And in ''seeing the light of the object doesn't want to observe'' I do not understand this. (sorry)


WHAT IF I TOLD YOU: That when people look at clouds, some perceive them to be mountains, some animals, some food etc. When in actuallity they are simply clouds. Isn't scripture simply the word of God and NOT what we perceive it to be? That it is the truth and by study and being faithful to it's Word we are seeking the truth of it? Rather than trying to make it into something WE want it to be as we perceive it?
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#4
I never stated that God is perception but that how people describe what they believe is true about God is influenced by their perception and experiences.

Scripture is often hidden in parables and is clear if the Holy Spirit reveals it to a person.

However does scripture discuss everything in the world?

no, but it discuss everything needful to live a godly life.

most issues arise when people attempt to have scripture comment on things and subjects God does not discuss in the first place.

change the word "observe" to "absorb" sorry about that.

so what do you believe is the CLEAR message of scripture?
 

Messenger_T

Senior Member
Apr 4, 2011
179
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#5
''I never stated that God is perception but that how people describe what they believe is true about God is influenced by their perception and experiences.''

This is true enough. Which is the innherant danger of allowing our own beliefs, perceptions and experiences influence what God is telling us in scripture.

''Scripture is often hidden in parables and is clear if the Holy Spirit reveals it to a person.''

I believe scripture IS the parables as they are given by Jesus who is the Word of God in flesh (John 1). And, as far as the Holy Spirit revealing it to someone, is this not the answer that ANYONE can give? That "the Holy Spirit revealed it to me?'' (which is the topic of this post).

''However does scripture discuss everything in the world?''

Being as we are IN this world and this world is created by God (as He created us), is it not imprtant that we learn how to NOT be of this world? That scripture is given so we are given instruction to NOT be conformed to this world?

''most issues arise when people attempt to have scripture comment on things and subjects God does not discuss in the first place.''

What is an issue that God would not discuss with His people? One that would not be answerd by scritpure?

''so what do you believe is the CLEAR message of scripture?''

1 Cor 13 says we ''know in part and we prophecy in part''. That since we do not know everything and we will not prophecy everything; that we are meant to be faithful according to it's Word. That we are to seek understanding of that truth (which is Jesus Himself-Jesus being the WORD of God-JOHN 1 again). That we are to LIVE accordingly in discovery and study and in repentance.

I say this because people who claim they have ''revelation'' or ''understanding about scripture'' from God can claim anything they want. As ANYONE can claim they have the very same ''revelation'' and ''understanding of scripture''.
 
M

mori

Guest
#6
There was enough dispute in the early church among fervent believers that I think we can exclude gnosticism as a method of obtaining truth. In other words, there hasn't been and probably won't ever be a method by which a person can receive knowledge directly, bypassing all preconceptions. Some modern Christians claim this, though. Unless one is enlightened by the Holy Spirit, they say, you can't understand anything in scripture. No methods of study, etc., will give you any significant measure of understanding and, apparently, their understanding was beamed directly into their brains.

I think early Christians understood, though. Paul gives good advice on how to handle disputable (not disputed) matters, putting the search for solid answers second to the protection of your neighbor's conscience. In other words, he recognized that there was ample room for disagreement and, instead of insisting on agreement in all things, gave instructions on handling ambiguity. He was less conciliatory in some of his letters, but I think he continued to understand the place of disagreement.

I think Jesus understood this too. He frequently spoke in terms that required the preconceptions of his audience. Who cares what a Samaritan did unless you had some feelings about Samaritans?

I think people who disagree yet claim to be from God can be from God. God uses, apparently, imperfect vessels and has given us ways to handle disagreements in ways that don't always require the hegemony of one viewpoint.
 

Messenger_T

Senior Member
Apr 4, 2011
179
3
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#7
In your statements above I can agree with everything you are saying. Gnosticism was true then as it is now.

God's Word was given (as one reason) so that those who claim to not need to study or to seek His Word in HIS scriptures. And you are correct (according to scripture) about what paul said about these matters. FAITH requires us DOING something. Jesus said SEEK the truth and you will FIND it. Jesus neing that truth. And ALWAYS seeking Him AND HIS WORD is required of us.

Gnosticism is as fervant today as it was then. And yet we STILL have God's Word in scripture to warn us of such today.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#8
The devil is crafty, and man is totally depraved. Gotta remember those two. It'll help a lot.
 
H

HearOhIsreal

Guest
#9
Meditation of the Word is the only way to bring true understanding.
 

Messenger_T

Senior Member
Apr 4, 2011
179
3
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#10
''Meditation of the Word is the only way to bring true understanding.''


What do you mean by ''meditation''?
 
H

HearOhIsreal

Guest
#11
''Meditation of the Word is the only way to bring true understanding.''


What do you mean by ''meditation''?
Basically reading and studying the Word and asking God to give you understanding. David brings up meditation quite a lot in Psalms.

Psalm 119:48
My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.
Psalm 77:12
I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.
Psalm 1:2
But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Also in Joshua,

Joshua 1:8
This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
God bless.
 

Messenger_T

Senior Member
Apr 4, 2011
179
3
18
#12
I can see the studying part, yes. But the word meditate in 3 of these is in response to the LAW. The other is in response to WORK.

Each of these involve "doing'' for God or in response to ''keeping'' the LAW.


Meditation is doing NOTHING of ourselves. David here is speaking of him doing in action or responding to what GOD has already given him.

The LAW was given (as knowledge of sin). Doing WORKS is something we do in FAITH to GOD. And that FAITH is already given as well.

So by FAITH already given by God, we are responding to something that is nothing but the knowledge of sin as given BY God which is specifically spelled out for us to follow as it is written.
 
S

See_KING_Truth

Guest
#13
1 Corinthians 2:12-14

King James Version (KJV)


12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 

Messenger_T

Senior Member
Apr 4, 2011
179
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#14
God's Word is freely given to us ALL. The Holy Spirit is given to ALL believers. It was through the Holy Spirit that the Word is given. If God's Word that is given by the Holy Spirit (which is ALSO given to us all) to teach us, then why do we even need teachers (which is also a gift of God)?

The natural man (who is not of God) cannot nor will not study NOR recieve the Word of God because he relies on himself.

The Spiritual discernment that is in scripture speaks of discerning of spirits. This is in reference to testing very spirit. If the Word of God, which is given by God through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to believers so that we would have HIS Word for our teaching, then why would God only reveal it to the very few who claim to have a ''more spiritual'' understanding than most others (if not all others)?

In this, as the gift of teaching is given to some (so as to teach those who need it), why, then, would God give his Word to ALL so that they might LEARN. Instead of JUST relying on GOD to simply reveal something that he gave to us ALL?
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#15
God's Word is freely given to us ALL. The Holy Spirit is given to ALL believers. It was through the Holy Spirit that the Word is given. If God's Word that is given by the Holy Spirit (which is ALSO given to us all) to teach us, then why do we even need teachers (which is also a gift of God)?

The natural man (who is not of God) cannot nor will not study NOR recieve the Word of God because he relies on himself.

The Spiritual discernment that is in scripture speaks of discerning of spirits. This is in reference to testing very spirit. If the Word of God, which is given by God through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to believers so that we would have HIS Word for our teaching, then why would God only reveal it to the very few who claim to have a ''more spiritual'' understanding than most others (if not all others)?

In this, as the gift of teaching is given to some (so as to teach those who need it), why, then, would God give his Word to ALL so that they might LEARN. Instead of JUST relying on GOD to simply reveal something that he gave to us ALL?
these two subjects are being tangled together.

1. God reveals what He wants to everyone when they need it. it is not because anyone is "more spiritual" but because everyone is unique and different and need different messages in their lives at different points in their lives.

For example , I have a friend whose baby just died. One wonders what you would say?

I have found that different psalms speak to my heart depending on the life circumstances. I understand what you are trying to refer to. those "super" Christians and "super" apostles you see on TV or on the internet who get "prophecies", but you should not compare those to true teachers of God's word.

there is a BIG difference between a wolf and a true shepherd of the flock. One is about the glory and money and power for themselves and the other is humble, meek. patient, kind, loving, self sacrificing for the good of the flock God has entrusted them with.

2. The gift of teaching and any ministry is a big responsibility. Most true pastors and teachers don't seek it but are called to it. They understand the cross and burden it entitles and do it willing for God.

so why did God not just give us a book and leave it at that?

Because He loves us and it is about relationships and loving each other. Not a set of rules to follow.

He gave us teachers to help guide us and help us grow into maturity. the same reason we are entrusted to parents when we are babies. we are given spiritual guidance from our teachers in the same way we were given physical nourishment from our parents, in order that we grow.

yes when we are mature and no longer swayed by false doctrine and able to discern good and evil then it is true all we need is God and His Holy Spirit and His word, but God places people in our lives to teach us to care about others, to tear down strongholds that would keep us from obeying God, to help us desire the things of God and bear the fruits of walking with the Spirit: Love,peace, kindness, patience, long suffering, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.

This is in order that we may in turn teach others God's ways and help them mature into the people God intends for us to be.

what keeps people from claiming to have had it revealed to them by God?

nothing.

why should you believe a person who says such things?

because your heart and spirit and God's Holy words agree with the person's statements. Because it causes you to become less like this world and more like your Heavenly Father. Because the words help you to display the fruits of the Spirit and bring comfort, exhortation or repentance and lead you into a closer walk with God.

that is how I discern between good and evil, how do you go about it?

PS. I believe the message of scripture is JESUS CHRIST, His work on the cross for the remission of sins, and how God wants to enable us through His Holy Spirit to cry out Abba, Father.
 

Messenger_T

Senior Member
Apr 4, 2011
179
3
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#16
why should you believe a person who says such things?

because your heart and spirit and God's Holy words agree with the person's statements. Because it causes you to become less like this world and more like your Heavenly Father. Because the words help you to display the fruits of the Spirit and bring comfort, exhortation or repentance and lead you into a closer walk with God.


If everyone CAN claim they know something as revealed to them by GOD, then how do two people or more that disagree on what God's Word is saying know that either of them or NEITHER of them are right?

Scripture is the only way to rightly devide what is said in scripture. Or else people can claim anything they want about it. People simply ''agreeing'' on what the scriptures say does not make it the truth of what it actually IS saying. TRUE edification is in two or more people coming together in UNDERSTANDING what it says rather than just simply agreeing on what it says. There is a truth to it all. Not ALL believe is the truth and NOT all who agree to what it says MAKES it the truth.


that is how I discern between good and evil, how do you go about it?

Paul said that the knowledge of sin was the LAW. It does not save. It only condemns. He also said that if it were not for the LAW then he would not have known sin. This is the knowledge of good and evil. Discernment of it is LEARNED as much as it is something in each and everyone of us. What we keep in our hearts is either good or evil.
 
M

mori

Guest
#17
If everyone CAN claim they know something as revealed to them by GOD, then how do two people or more that disagree on what God's Word is saying know that either of them or NEITHER of them are right?
To dig a little more deeply into what I was discussing above, when were we promised that we would be able to untangle those sorts of knots? It sometimes won't be possible to come to conclusions and it's not even necessary - we know how to act when the answers are still vague. Paul discusses in Romans 14 the questions of dietary law and holy days, on which different groups were equally convinced they had the truth.

Romans14 said:
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
What is more important than having a communal decision on, for example, dietary laws? Peace, mutual edification, and each having faith that his actions are right. One pleases God and receives human approval by considerately avoiding issues which might distress those who disagree. This attitude is, of course, different from that which says the truth on any given issue is evident and anybody who disagrees needs to get over it.

We don't need consensus, aren't promised any method to achieve it, and are instead given instructions on how to act when those problems are insoluble. As Paul says here, each will give an account to God; if we're willing to wait long enough, the questions will be resolved in time. I suppose that's the method - if after some careful study and prayer there is no agreement, there is still an end in sight. We just can't force it.

TRUE edification is in two or more people coming together in UNDERSTANDING what it says rather than just simply agreeing on what it says.
Alternatively, mutual edification is possible even when people disagree on what it says. It may, in fact, be a demonstration for two who disagree to lovingly acknowledge their difference and not insist on a resolution. In this they affirm that their shared allegiance to their father is more important than whatever issue they're considering.
 
G

greatblue

Guest
#18
Jesus is God's truth revealed, full stop. Our understanding of who Jesus Christ is will be completely different than the person worshipping beside us, or typing in the post below ours. The gospel is filled with personal accounts that vary to show us the undefinable depth of God's love for us: Zacchaeus, the woman of Samaria, etc.

I can listen to John MacArthur, John Piper, and James MacDonald all interpret a snippet of scripture differently, and not judge or question one to be more correct than another. Obviously, they are different men with individual relationships with the Lord, yet men with human interpretation all the same.

Paul's experience with Christ is much different to that of Peter. The men had two separate ministries and, while we know them both to be faithful followers of Christ, we can see at least one account where they held to a different interpretation of the truth.

Jesus is Lord of all. We are human and we will differ. They did when Christ was with them in the flesh.
 

Messenger_T

Senior Member
Apr 4, 2011
179
3
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#19
''Paul's experience with Christ is much different to that of Peter. The men had two separate ministries and, while we know them both to be faithful followers of Christ, we can see at least one account where they held to a different interpretation of the truth.''

Their experinces were different but the truth is still the truth..and Christ is the SAME Christ as He is to everyone else.
 

duewell

Senior Member
Mar 5, 2011
350
9
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#20
most of us talk about the truth, Jesus actually teaches it. there have been plenty of people who have learned, but many others would not listen. the reality of Gods truth is greater than most can even imagine. everyone experiences it every day, nearly all are unaware of it. the best i can do is to witness to the truth of Jesus and the bible. it happened to me, it can happen to you. then you will know truth. regardless if others accept or understand it.
mark 4 v 11-13
Duewell
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