Two Camps... rules & grace

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J

jcha

Guest
#82
#82
From Professor WA Liebenberg of Africa:

Your Identity - The Ultimate "Mystery" in the Bible Christians has Missed (Intermediate)(English)
 
K

KenAllan

Banned
#83
Sep 16, 2014
1,278
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#83
Because Israel turned its back on God is why God brought His Salvation to the Gentiles.

Our time is not up yet.

When Jesus, God, comes back up in the air to remove His Children is when the time is up for the Gentiles and is given back to Israel.

But the problem is you cannot receive Salvation by Grace only. You actually have to die in this time period to receive Salvation.

Now the question is who will you Worship and serve? God or Satan?
 
disciplemike

disciplemike

Banned
#84
Jul 1, 2016
2,639
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#84
KenAllan said:
Because Israel turned its back on God is why God brought His Salvation to the Gentiles.

Our time is not up yet.

When Jesus, God, comes back up in the air to remove His Children is when the time is up for the Gentiles and is given back to Israel.

But the problem is you cannot receive Salvation by Grace only. You actually have to die in this time period to receive Salvation.

Now the question is who will you Worship and serve? God or Satan?
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ken, there are no covenants of promise to gentiles UNLESS they are grafted into Israel. Not all the blood-line of Abraham is Israel, but make no mistake, the covenants belong to Israel.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#85
#85
disciplemike said:
ken, there are no covenants of promise to gentiles UNLESS they are grafted into Israel. Not all the blood-line of Abraham is Israel, but make no mistake, the covenants belong to Israel.
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You mean like the country of Israel? Do we have to move there and is it painful?
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
#86
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
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#86
FreeNChrist said:
You mean like the country of Israel? Do we have to move there and is it painful?
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==================================

free, do you ever question yourself where such bizarre thoughts that come into
your mind come from>?
 
K

KenAllan

Banned
#87
Sep 16, 2014
1,278
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#87
But God belongs to everybody, even the Gentiles!
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#89
#89
oldethennew said:
==================================

free, do you ever question yourself where such bizarre thoughts that come into
your mind come from>?
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A man is saying we gentiles need to somehow be grafted into a country? And you don't think that is bizarre??
 
K

KenAllan

Banned
#90
Sep 16, 2014
1,278
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#90
Maybe disciplemike. How can you say you belong to Him while at the same time condemning those who do not agree with you?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#92
Jul 3, 2015
56,787
26,640
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#92
To say gentiles need to be grafted into Israel is not speaking of the country.
Surely you know that? Even Scripture says, Jew first, and then gentile.
Grafting is a Scriptural metaphor for being included/added to the original.
Jesus is the true vine and we are the branches being grafted in :)

Jesus came to save everybody (1 John 2:2). Jesus Christ is God Himself (John 1:1). Jesus died on the cross as the payment for all our sins, and He rose from death in resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:3–4). Jesus said He was the Good Shepherd, and He predicted that His flock would be greatly expanded: “I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd” (John 10:16). Did Jesus come only for the Jews and not the Gentiles?
 
disciplemike

disciplemike

Banned
#93
Jul 1, 2016
2,639
22
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#93
Magenta said:
To say gentiles need to be grafted into Israel is not speaking of the country.
Surely you know that? Even Scripture says, Jew first, and then gentile.
Grafting is a Scriptural metaphor for being included/added to the original.
Jesus is the true vine and we are the branches being grafted in :)

Jesus came to save everybody (1 John 2:2). Jesus Christ is God Himself (John 1:1). Jesus died on the cross as the payment for all our sins, and He rose from death in resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:3–4). Jesus said He was the Good Shepherd, and He predicted that His flock would be greatly expanded: “I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd” (John 10:16). Did Jesus come only for the Jews and not the Gentiles?
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The ones that listen are Israel!
 
J

jcha

Guest
#95
#95
KenAllan said:
But God belongs to everybody, even the Gentiles!
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Except there is not a covenant to the house of Gentiles. Yes, regardless of bloodline, all are invited. In the new Jerusalem there are 12 gates, one for each tribe. I don't know which gate I will be assigned to, but rest assured no one enters by climbing the wall.

The New Jerusalem
…11shining with the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious jewel, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12The city had a great and high wall withtwelve gates inscribed with the names of the twelvetribes of Israel, and twelve angels at the gates. 13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south, and three on the west.…

Why a high wall? Because you need to be of the tribes of Israel and enter through one of the gates.


 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#97
Jul 31, 2013
36,825
13,187
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#97
jcha said:
Except there is not a covenant to the house of Gentiles. Yes, regardless of bloodline, all are invited. In the new Jerusalem there are 12 gates, one for each tribe. I don't know which gate I will be assigned to, but rest assured no one enters by climbing the wall.
Click to expand...

this is not saying that the covenant is not with 'gentiles' and that only ethnic Israel enters the kingdom. the 12 apostles are written as well as the 12 tribes - there are 24 elders. this is figurative for the whole people of God; not saying that all of us are ethnically one of the 12 tribes.

look at the list of tribes of the 144,000 sealed -- this list is never repeated anywhere in all of scripture.
it is not in birth order, Judah is first. but it is not just Judah being put first to indicate Christ's supremacy: Reuben is second, then the children of the concubines. it's not about birth order at all.
it is not about inheritance: Levi is listed.
it is not about tribes: Joseph is listed. Ephraim is not. Dan is not.
it is not about sonship: Manasseh is listed.

it is purely figurative, describing the entirety of the people of God. Judah is first, because through him is the Messiah. Reuben is second, showing that the elder serves the younger. the children of the concubine are next - showing that the illegitimate are made legitimate. Levi is included, because it is not about inheritance by birthright. Joseph is included, and Ephraim is not though Manasseh is, because it is not about the promise by tribal identification, but by sonship. Manasseh is included, because it is not about legitimacy by human birthright. Dan is not included, because the people of God - the whole people of God - are those who have not defiled themselves by idolatry, and through Dan the 10 tribes learned these adulteries.

it is not about 'becoming ethnically Jewish' like you & your disciple seem to think. this would contradict the scripture, which says there is no Jew nor Greek in Him. this would contradict the scripture in Revelation, which says that the great multitude is of every tribe, nation & tongue. this great multitude is the 144,000 -- the very same ones who are sealed -- and we are the children of God, made pure because we have washed our clothes in the blood of the Lamb, and kept ourselves from idolatry.

in Christ, there is no Jew. there is no Gentile. there is only the children of God. children by faith, not human bloodline, just as He is made priest forever not by human birthright, but by the declaration of the Father - so we are made His children by His word, not by association with ethnic Israel.
 
disciplemike

disciplemike

Banned
#98
Jul 1, 2016
2,639
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#98
Who are Israelites;
to whom [pertaineth] the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service [of God],
and the promises;

Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Romans 9:4-5 (KJV)
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#99
Jul 31, 2013
36,825
13,187
113
#99
jcha said:


Why a high wall? Because you need to be of the tribes of Israel and enter through one of the gates.
Click to expand...

On no day will its gates ever be shut
(Revelation 21:25)​

the wall is not to keep people out. it's symbolizing the security of the people of God.


it probably needs to be made very clear that this vision in Revelation 21 is not a city that the children of God will live in.

the New Jerusalem is the children of God


just look at 21:9-10. the angel said look, i'm going to show you the Wife of the Lamb. and what John saw was this city. the city is a figurative vision of the Bride of Christ: the church, the people of God, the Israel of God.

not racially semitic people who trace their human heritage to Abraham through Isaac, through one of the sons of Jacob. ((that's "ethnic Israel" btw))

there is only One Gate to enter this city -- Jesus Christ, Yeshua Ha-Mashiach, the Son of God. this is the only way to become part of the Wife of the Lamb: and it doesn't matter if you are ethnically Jewish, and you don't magically become ethnically Jewish when you enter.
 
disciplemike

disciplemike

Banned
#100
Jul 1, 2016
2,639
22
0
#100
It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—
Revelation 21:12 (ESV2011)
 
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