Under Law or Under Grace
- Thread starter romans113336
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
1. And "the Spirit" is "the Spirit of Grace" right?
2. Romans 7 follows Romans 6.
Romans 6:14 says the Jewish believers in the Roman Church "Will not be mastered by sin because you are not under Law but under Grace".
Romans 7:1 picks back up on this, "Or do you not know, brothers..."
Romans 7 goes on to describe how those "under Law" are mastered by sin, because the Law "arouses" sinful passions, as 1 Co 15 says "the Law is the strength of sin".
2. Romans 7 follows Romans 6.
Romans 6:14 says the Jewish believers in the Roman Church "Will not be mastered by sin because you are not under Law but under Grace".
Romans 7:1 picks back up on this, "Or do you not know, brothers..."
Romans 7 goes on to describe how those "under Law" are mastered by sin, because the Law "arouses" sinful passions, as 1 Co 15 says "the Law is the strength of sin".
No.
Okay.
Okay.
Romans 6:1-23 NASB20 - What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with [Him] in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [in the likeness] of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with [Him,] in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for the one who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all [time;] but the life that He lives, He lives to God. So you too, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore sin is not to reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the parts of your body to sin [as] instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead, and your body's parts [as] instruments of righteousness for God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the Law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the Law but under grace? Far from it! Do you not know that [the one] to whom you present yourselves [as] slaves for obedience, you are slaves of [that same one] whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to [that] form of teaching to which you were entrusted, and after being freed from sin, you became slaves to righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented the parts of your body as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in [further] lawlessness, so now present your body's parts as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in relation to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 7:1-25 NASB20 - Or do you not know, brothers [and sisters] (for I am speaking to those who know the Law), that the Law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is alive she gives herself to another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress if she gives herself to another man. Therefore, my brothers [and sisters,] you also were put to death in regard to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were [brought to light] by the Law, were at work in the parts of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Far from it! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin [is] dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it, killed [me.] So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Therefore did that which is good become [a cause of] death for me? Far from it! Rather [it was] sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by bringing about my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin. For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want [to do,] but I do the very thing I hate. However, if I do the very thing I do not want [to do,] I agree with the Law, that [the Law is] good. But now, no longer am I [the one] doing it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good [is] not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I do the very thing I do not want, I am no longer [the one] doing it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully agree with the law of God in the inner person, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, [the law] which is in my body's parts. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
I know that there is a difference between the Law or the law and sin.
Okay.
Okay.
Romans 6:1-23 NASB20 - What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with [Him] in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [in the likeness] of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with [Him,] in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for the one who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all [time;] but the life that He lives, He lives to God. So you too, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore sin is not to reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the parts of your body to sin [as] instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead, and your body's parts [as] instruments of righteousness for God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the Law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the Law but under grace? Far from it! Do you not know that [the one] to whom you present yourselves [as] slaves for obedience, you are slaves of [that same one] whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to [that] form of teaching to which you were entrusted, and after being freed from sin, you became slaves to righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented the parts of your body as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in [further] lawlessness, so now present your body's parts as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in relation to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 7:1-25 NASB20 - Or do you not know, brothers [and sisters] (for I am speaking to those who know the Law), that the Law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is alive she gives herself to another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress if she gives herself to another man. Therefore, my brothers [and sisters,] you also were put to death in regard to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were [brought to light] by the Law, were at work in the parts of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Far from it! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin [is] dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it, killed [me.] So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Therefore did that which is good become [a cause of] death for me? Far from it! Rather [it was] sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by bringing about my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin. For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want [to do,] but I do the very thing I hate. However, if I do the very thing I do not want [to do,] I agree with the Law, that [the Law is] good. But now, no longer am I [the one] doing it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good [is] not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I do the very thing I do not want, I am no longer [the one] doing it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully agree with the law of God in the inner person, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, [the law] which is in my body's parts. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
I know that there is a difference between the Law or the law and sin.
1. So, you deny that "not under Law but under Grace" has any bearing on Romans 7, "so that you don't serve in oldness of the letter but in the newness of the Spirit"? LOL Which "spirit" is Romans 7 referring to, if not the Spirit of Grace?
2. Before we get in to the difference between "the Law" and "sin", let's finish #1.
2. Before we get in to the difference between "the Law" and "sin", let's finish #1.
Hebrews 10:29 calls the spirit of God the Spirit of Grace.
This same Spirit writes the Law of God on the hearts of the Gentiles so that they are deemed "doers of the Law" when they obey--it is the new method of serving.
Ezekiel says "I will put My Spirit in you and cause you to fulfill My Law" (para.).
Clearly, the Spirit of God, which is also called the Spirit of Grace, is the New Covenant method of serving God, "newness of the Spirit".
This same Spirit writes the Law of God on the hearts of the Gentiles so that they are deemed "doers of the Law" when they obey--it is the new method of serving.
Ezekiel says "I will put My Spirit in you and cause you to fulfill My Law" (para.).
Clearly, the Spirit of God, which is also called the Spirit of Grace, is the New Covenant method of serving God, "newness of the Spirit".
Hebrews 10:29 NASB20 - How much more severe punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
I don't follow or believe what you are saying. I don't know how to explain it (to you).
Do you have a reference for this?
I don't follow that. I don't believe that.
I don't follow or believe what you are saying. I don't know how to explain it (to you).
Do you have a reference for this?
I don't follow that. I don't believe that.
-
1
- Show all
When Paul says "having died to that which held us captive", what was it that had held them captive?
Sin and the Laws Sin issued held them captive (Ro 7:23).
Now that they have died (they shared with Christ's death), that death triggered the Law's release clause.
The Law didn't hold them captive, Sin did, but, as Jews, they were obligated to serve God by means of the Law as long as they were living.
Sin and the Laws Sin issued held them captive (Ro 7:23).
Now that they have died (they shared with Christ's death), that death triggered the Law's release clause.
The Law didn't hold them captive, Sin did, but, as Jews, they were obligated to serve God by means of the Law as long as they were living.
Romans 7:6 ESV - But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
Romans 7:23 ESV - but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
I don't know what this means.
No. I don't agree with any of this.
Romans 7:23 ESV - but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
I don't know what this means.
No. I don't agree with any of this.
-
1
- Show all
And who is the Spirit of Grace if not the Holy Spirit of God?
Well, I'm just reading Scripture, and believing it, and your answer is you don't agree and you don't know how to explain your disagreement. It's OK, you are giving the readers a chance to understand how to respond to objections.
Ezekiel 33
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.[a] 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to yo
Apparently not! LOL!
I'm just telling you what Christianity teaches--you're welcome to believe the Bible when you please!
Well, I'm just reading Scripture, and believing it, and your answer is you don't agree and you don't know how to explain your disagreement. It's OK, you are giving the readers a chance to understand how to respond to objections.
Ezekiel 33
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.[a] 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to yo
Apparently not! LOL!
I'm just telling you what Christianity teaches--you're welcome to believe the Bible when you please!
You haven't read Romans 6? It tells you that we who are baptized into Christ are baptized into His death.
Paul's well-worn phrase, "I have been crucified with Christ" corresponds to this.
Those who believe in Christ DIE with Christ, so the Jew is set free from the Law (Ro 7:1-6).
Only DEATH frees the Jew from his obligation to serve by the Torah.
Paul's well-worn phrase, "I have been crucified with Christ" corresponds to this.
Those who believe in Christ DIE with Christ, so the Jew is set free from the Law (Ro 7:1-6).
Only DEATH frees the Jew from his obligation to serve by the Torah.
LOL sooo... why would it matter if you insulted a spirit that wasn't God's Spirit? Why would it make a person worthy of much sorer punishment? Why would some other Spirit, not God's Spirit, be insulted at Christ's blood be trampled on?
See how your obstinacy makes foolishness of Scripture, rather than letting Scripture show your foolishness? Don't "lie against the truth".
You don't follow the Bible. I've stated the Scriptures, you've rejected the Scriptures, and have said "I don't know how to explain why". LOL You're exactly the type of obstinate person I was looking to speak with.
See how your obstinacy makes foolishness of Scripture, rather than letting Scripture show your foolishness? Don't "lie against the truth".
That is just fine. Let the readers or the hearers judge. But I don't want to be obstinate.
I believe the Bible. I am a Christian. I do not follow Christianity.
I believe the Bible. I am a Christian. I do not follow Christianity.