Understanding God’s election

[Inquisitor]

Judas was possessed by Satan. Satan is also the son of perdition.

That Scripture that comments upon the man is an observation of the writer. Not a declaration or judgement of Judas by Jesus.

Whereas Jesus as we know from scripture knew of Judas,Satan within him, plan of betrayal and told Judas to do what he must do quickly.

Clearly due to that outcome we know Jesus knew Judas was going to tell the Pharisees where to find Jesus. Which is why Jesus was in the garden at Gethsemane preparing for his death.

When we know Jesus had earlier told his Disciples to buy swords and Peter had one in Gethsemane do we really think Judas would have been able to leave that upper room to "betray" Jesus if it wasn't foreordained by the Father? Jesus knew it was.
Which is why in Gethsemane He asked the Father if it be His will to remove that cup from him.

I believe Judas was Saved. Even possessed, Satan within him served God's will and plan for Salvations new covenant.

Salvation is irrevocable.

No doubt that upset Satan to know how he assured that seal later on.

I asked Reverend Chat GPT about Judas.

Using the New Testament would you say that Judas was saved or not saved?

The question of whether Judas Iscariot was saved or not is a deeply theological one, and interpretations vary across Christian traditions and perspectives. The New Testament provides evidence that can support differing conclusions. Let’s look at key passages and themes:

Arguments Suggesting Judas Was Not Saved:

1. Jesus Calls Judas a "Devil" (John 6:70-71):
   • Jesus says, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." This implies a fundamental separation from God.
2. Betrayal as Fulfillment of Prophecy:
   • Judas is often linked to Old Testament prophecies about betrayal (e.g., Psalm 41:9), but his actions are seen as a willful choice to betray Jesus.
3. Jesus' Words About Judas (Matthew 26:24):
   • Jesus says, "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born," which strongly implies eternal consequences for Judas’s actions.
4. Judas' Death (Matthew 27:3-5, Acts 1:18-19):
   • Judas dies by suicide after feeling remorse for betraying Jesus. While he regrets his actions, there is no clear evidence in Scripture that he repents in a way leading to salvation.
5. Replacement of Judas (Acts 1:24-25):
   • When the apostles replace Judas, it is said he went to "his own place," a phrase often interpreted as implying judgment or separation from God.

Arguments Suggesting the Possibility of Salvation:

1. God's Grace and Mercy:
   • The New Testament emphasizes that salvation is through grace, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Some argue that Judas’s remorse (Matthew 27:3) might reflect an opportunity for grace.
2. Jesus’ Prayer on the Cross (Luke 23:34):
   • Jesus prays for forgiveness for those who crucified Him, which could be extended to Judas as part of the larger context of divine mercy.
3. God’s Sovereignty and Judas' Role:
   • Judas’s betrayal was part of God’s redemptive plan. Some argue that Judas was a necessary instrument in that plan, which could allow for mercy despite his actions.

Traditional Christian Interpretations:

• Catholic and Orthodox Views: These traditions generally see Judas as lost, based on the gravity of his betrayal and lack of evidence of genuine repentance.
• Protestant Views: Many Protestants also lean toward Judas being unsaved, emphasizing Jesus' statements and Judas's ultimate actions.
• Some Minority Views: A few Christian thinkers speculate about Judas’s salvation, focusing on God’s limitless grace and the possibility of posthumous reconciliation.

Conclusion:
The majority of Christian interpretations lean toward Judas not being saved, primarily due to Jesus’ strong statements about him and the lack of evidence of repentance leading to salvation. However, the ultimate judgment belongs to God, whose mercy and justice surpass human understanding.

 

[Inquisitor]

Jesus would have known Satan was within Judas. And it would then have been His adversary to whom Jesus referred.

Jesus elected the twelve to salvation and Jesus called Judas a devil ("one of you is a devil").

Your theology strikes a problem with Judas.

How do you save an elect devil?

 

[Inquisitor]

Perhaps that applies to you? I certainly never said any such thing.

But know that if you respond and I do not it is because I have had you on ignore since:

That's the language of Calvinism I was quoting.

I have read comments many years ago written by Calvinists and that was the language they used.

You misunderstood that I was acting as a Calvinist in those posts.

Now I see why you have a problem with me.

I was joking but apparently you didn't notice.

Sorry that's my fault.

 

[Inquisitor]

Perhaps that applies to you? I certainly never said any such thing.

But know that if you respond and I do not it is because I have had you on ignore since:

It is implied by you (Calvinism) that mankind is absolutely depraved.

Since mankind is depraved, then no one can understand that Jesus could be the messiah.

A person cannot ponder Jesus unless they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, i.e., the elect.

Matthew 21:8-9
And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees,
and strawed them in the way. And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna
to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Sure looks like the folk in Jerusalem were looking at their King (the Jewish messiah).

The text should say 'a remnant spread their garments'.

 

[Cranberry]

Jesus elected the twelve to salvation and Jesus called Judas a devil ("one of you is a devil").

Your theology strikes a problem with Judas.

How do you save an elect devil?

Thank you for sharing that Jesus of course knew the Devil was within Judas and to whom he would share His last supper, i e. give communion.

 

[Cranberry]

It is implied by you (Calvinism) that mankind is absolutely depraved.

Since mankind is depraved, then no one can understand that Jesus could be the messiah.

A person cannot ponder Jesus unless they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, i.e., the elect.

Matthew 21:8-9
And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees,
and strawed them in the way. And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna
to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Sure looks like the folk in Jerusalem were looking at their King (the Jewish messiah).

The text should say 'a remnant spread their garments'.

Jesus in his entry described in Matthew 21 was fulfilling the prophecy of Zechariah 9.

 

[Inquisitor]

YES! But...
They will be losers at their evaluation by the Lord, yet saved.

Look here!

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has
been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will
suffer loss, but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.



1 Corinthians 3:11-15

You may be confusing 'Christian works' and 'the fruit of the Holy Spirit'.

 

[Inquisitor]

Jesus in his entry described in Matthew 21 was fulfilling the prophecy of Zechariah 9.

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

 

[Inquisitor]

Your arrogance and condescension is a very poor reflection on Jesus. Just from an outside perspective. You are not being respectful or even arguing in good faith. You're behaving more like a cult adherent and making divisions for no other reason than self aggrandizement. I'm not telling you this as a insult, but as a friend that hopes someone will point it out to me if I start sounding like this. The CDSC (Calvin Derangement Syndrome Cult ) thinks way too highly of themselves and not highly enough of God or other people. They do not see they act 180 degrees from how Jesus told us to treat each other. Here to other people who proclaim Jesus name. I guarantee that 90% of who you call "Calvinist" would tell you "I'm not a Calvinist", but that sure doesn't stop the CDSC from calling you one then going on to destroy teachings you clearly say you've never believed in, and high fiving each other as if they are Holy warriors fighting on Gods behalf. It's beyond sad and is a disgrace to Jesus name. Don't fall into this cult way of thinking man. We can disagree and both be saved, both be brothers. But the way you speak doesn't feel like it leaves much room for that. Not when you (not YOU but most Calvin slayers) have to mislabel me, lie about what I believe, then go on to attack the lie you made up to lift up self and make yourself feel better about your own belief. Once the CDSC starts listening and actually dealing with what is said and not what they make up, stop labeling others falsely and being divisive just for divisiveness sake, then we can come together and discuss these things like we should, but until they can drop the false authority they've imagined up in their own minds and deal with these matters in truth, then there is absolutely no reason at all to waste time "fighting" with them endlessly.

You said, "The CDSC (Calvin Derangement Syndrome Cult )".

Your having a go at me?

 

[Cranberry]

Luther was wrong. The Bible does not teach that God chooses people for destruction. God did not create certain people to go to hell. If that were true that God is unjust.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/god_created_people_for_destruction

 

[Rufus]

Jesus would have known Satan was within Judas. And it would then have been His adversary to whom Jesus referred.

Another thing Jesus knew is that his betrayer (Judas), He did NOT keep and protect as the other 11!

John 17:11-12
11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name — the name you gave me — so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
NIV

So..."lost" = saved in your world? Or "saved" = one who was "doomed for destruction"?

Also, Jesus told the 12 this about "saint" Judas who would betray him:

Mark 14:17-21
17 When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18 While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me — one who is eating with me."

19 They were saddened, and one by one they said to him, "Surely not I?"

20 "It is one of the Twelve," he replied, "one who dips bread into the bowl with me. 21 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
NIV

I find it more than odd that you attribute Judas' great sin to Satan, which even Judas didn't do, since he owned his own sin! How come you don't attribute Judas' sin to God since that wicked man simply did what God ordained for him to do?

Acts 4:27
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen
NIV



While Judas isn't mentioned in this passage, nonetheless if what is true about about God's decrees re the bad actors mentioned above, how much more considering all the scathing prophecies about Judas in the OT? Would you like a memory refresher course on those?

 

[Magenta]

all the scathing prophecies about Judas in the OT? Would you like a memory refresher course on those?

I would be interested to see that .. If you have such a list handy, that is...

 

[Rufus]

I asked Reverend Chat GPT about Judas.

Using the New Testament would you say that Judas was saved or not saved?

The question of whether Judas Iscariot was saved or not is a deeply theological one, and interpretations vary across Christian traditions and perspectives. The New Testament provides evidence that can support differing conclusions. Let’s look at key passages and themes:

Arguments Suggesting Judas Was Not Saved:

1. Jesus Calls Judas a "Devil" (John 6:70-71):
   • Jesus says, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." This implies a fundamental separation from God.
2. Betrayal as Fulfillment of Prophecy:
   • Judas is often linked to Old Testament prophecies about betrayal (e.g., Psalm 41:9), but his actions are seen as a willful choice to betray Jesus.
3. Jesus' Words About Judas (Matthew 26:24):
   • Jesus says, "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born," which strongly implies eternal consequences for Judas’s actions.
4. Judas' Death (Matthew 27:3-5, Acts 1:18-19):
   • Judas dies by suicide after feeling remorse for betraying Jesus. While he regrets his actions, there is no clear evidence in Scripture that he repents in a way leading to salvation.
5. Replacement of Judas (Acts 1:24-25):
   • When the apostles replace Judas, it is said he went to "his own place," a phrase often interpreted as implying judgment or separation from God.

Arguments Suggesting the Possibility of Salvation:

1. God's Grace and Mercy:
   • The New Testament emphasizes that salvation is through grace, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Some argue that Judas’s remorse (Matthew 27:3) might reflect an opportunity for grace.
2. Jesus’ Prayer on the Cross (Luke 23:34):
   • Jesus prays for forgiveness for those who crucified Him, which could be extended to Judas as part of the larger context of divine mercy.
3. God’s Sovereignty and Judas' Role:
   • Judas’s betrayal was part of God’s redemptive plan. Some argue that Judas was a necessary instrument in that plan, which could allow for mercy despite his actions.

Traditional Christian Interpretations:

• Catholic and Orthodox Views: These traditions generally see Judas as lost, based on the gravity of his betrayal and lack of evidence of genuine repentance.
• Protestant Views: Many Protestants also lean toward Judas being unsaved, emphasizing Jesus' statements and Judas's ultimate actions.
• Some Minority Views: A few Christian thinkers speculate about Judas’s salvation, focusing on God’s limitless grace and the possibility of posthumous reconciliation.

Conclusion:
The majority of Christian interpretations lean toward Judas not being saved, primarily due to Jesus’ strong statements about him and the lack of evidence of repentance leading to salvation. However, the ultimate judgment belongs to God, whose mercy and justice surpass human understanding.

"Speculation", you say? Now there something to build a solid theology behind. [Carnal] Speculation is in competition with God's revealed, eternal truth?

 

[Cranberry]

Another thing Jesus knew is that his betrayer (Judas), He did NOT keep and protect as the other 11!

John 17:11-12
11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name — the name you gave me — so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
NIV

So..."lost" = saved in your world? Or "saved" = one who was "doomed for destruction"?

Also, Jesus told the 12 this about "saint" Judas who would betray him:

Mark 14:17-21
17 When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18 While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me — one who is eating with me."

19 They were saddened, and one by one they said to him, "Surely not I?"

20 "It is one of the Twelve," he replied, "one who dips bread into the bowl with me. 21 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
NIV

I find it more than odd that you attribute Judas' great sin to Satan, which even Judas didn't do, since he owned his own sin! How come you don't attribute Judas' sin to God since that wicked man simply did what God ordained for him to do?

Acts 4:27
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen
NIV



While Judas isn't mentioned in this passage, nonetheless if what is true about about God's decrees re the bad actors mentioned above, how much more considering all the scathing prophecies about Judas in the OT? Would you like a memory refresher course on those?

I don't abrogate Scripture so to manufacture a preferred ideology devoid then of The Spirit of Truth.
What you prefer to think is meaningless to what God taught in His word as The Word.

You are a blessing in that you are evidence God knows all things. And as such prepared His Saints for what may come.

Thank you.

 

[Genez]

Newsflash for you: ALL Angels are spirit beings!

Heb 1:14
14 Are not ALL angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
NIV

If the common, normal form that angels possessed (but can take at times) were material bodies, there would be no difference between angels and humans. Furthermore, there is no record in scripture that angles die as humans do! Spirit beings cannot die the way humans do. Why do you think God had to take on the form of a man!?

"Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have ​

entertained angels unawares." Hebrews 13:2​

Angels, when not materialized, are by nature spirit beings.
Man, when not materialized, is a soul.

Some people who died on the operating table report that they had their soul remain in the room.
And, as their soul, witnessed to the medical team trying to revive them.
They were being a soul when that happened. Angels are spirit.

It is something we need to learn to comprehend and to balance out.

grace and peace .......
.......

 

[Genez]

Nonsense. God was their bridegroom. Why do you think He was so angry at their [spiritual] IDOLATRY!? Jesus didn't invent a new metaphor when he came. He always drew his truth from the OT.

Not one Scripture citation from you?

 

[Magenta]

Man, when not materialized, is a soul.

Man became a living soul after he was a material being. Not before God breathed into him the breath of life.

 

[Genez]

You may be confusing 'Christian works' and 'the fruit of the Holy Spirit'.

"For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, ​

which God prepared in advance for us to do". Ephesians 2:10​

Fruit of the Holy Spirit among other things includes doing works.

​

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, ​

but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear ​

and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his ​

good purpose." Philippians 2:12-13​

​

​

.........​

 

[Genez]

Man became a living soul after he was a material being. Not before God breathed into him the breath of life.

The body was lifeless before God gave Adam's body a soul.

And, He became a 'living soul' is stated because of something said in the Hebrew!

It does not say "breath of life." It is not singular.
The Hebrew actually says that the Lord breathed into his nostrils the breath of lives = A plurality!

(see link) ....
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/39568/why-does-genesis-27-read-חַיִּ֑ים-plural-rather-than-singular

Breathed into the nostrils, the breath of lives. Two lives!
Both soul life and the human spirit.
Adam was created spiritually alive.

The human spirit is what makes the regenerated person to be seen as being alive by God.
God sees the unregenerate man... having only soul and body, as being dead.

​

Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, ​

but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:60​

.......

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

https://www.openbible.info/topics/god_created_people_for_destruction

No, I don't believe God made people simply to go to hell. God is a just God and that is not just.