Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Romans 7:18-24a I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes, everyone failed! So why did God give commands that He knew no one would be able to keep perfectly?

To introduce the need for the messiah.

 

[brightfame52]

@ThereRoseaLamb

Tulip is man made by Calvin and those who came after him

There u go again, hating on the Gospel of God, designating its origin to a man scoffing.

 

[GWH]

Whoah whoah whoah

you're saying that when Jesus in very plain language told us in Mark 4 that He specifically taught in parables in order to keep some people blind and deaf, He was essentially lying ???

that's your explanation for clear scripture that contradicts your presumptions?
Jesus Christ is a liar? He says things He means exactly the opposite of, for jokes?

wow.

No, I am noting that Jesus taught using various literary techniques including parables, metaphors and irony, which means stating a truth in a way different from what might be expected.

Irony is NOT denying anything. It is saying something different from what might be expected, akin to paradox.

My Bible shows that in MT 11:16-19 Jesus was quoting a children's jingle:

"We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not mourn."

Both of these lines employ the literary technique known as irony.

Then Jesus said:

"For John came neither eating nor drinking,
and they say, 'He has a demon.'
The Son of Man came eating and drinking,
and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard...'"

Again we see an irony, employed to teach the point that
"Wisdom is proved right by her actions."

Which is different from what some might expect.

(You're welcome again for the English lesson :^)

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

@ThereRoseaLamb



There u go again, hating on the Gospel of God, designating its origin to a man scoffing.

I didn't say anything about the Gospel. And your barking Calvinism has no teeth so you can go back on the porch. I know the Word and it doesn't teach your man made dogma.

 

[posthuman]

No, I am noting that Jesus taught using various literary techniques including parables, metaphors and irony, which means stating a truth in a way different from what might be expected.

Irony is NOT denying anything. It is saying something different from what might be expected, akin to paradox.

My Bible shows that in MT 11:16-19 Jesus was quoting a children's jingle:

"We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not mourn."

Both of these lines employ the literary technique known as irony.

Then Jesus said:

"For John came neither eating nor drinking,
and they say, 'He has a demon.'
The Son of Man came eating and drinking,
and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard...'"

Again we see an irony, employed to teach the point that
"Wisdom is proved right by her actions."

Which is different from what some might expect.

(You're welcome again for the English lesson :^)

what do you make of Him explicitly saying that He taught in parables specifically so that some people would not understand?

do you see this as Him ironically meaning He did no such thing? that is, saying exactly the opposite of what He meant?
((a definition of irony))

or do you agree that He in fact deliberately hid the truth from some people?

 

[GWH]

what do you make of Him explicitly saying that He taught in parables specifically so that some people would not understand?

do you see this as Him ironically meaning He did no such thing? that is, saying exactly the opposite of what He meant?
((a definition of irony))

or do you agree that He in fact deliberately hid the truth from some people?

In order to understand Scripture sufficiently, it is necessary to study it systematically, which means to harmonize all relevant passages.

If you are willing to do that, I will begin on the Hermeneutics thread in about ten minutes, since that is its topic. See you there?

 

[brightfame52]

@ThereRoseaLamb

I didn't say anything about the Gospel.

Yes you did, Tulip Truths are the Gospel, the very foundational blueprint of Gods saving Grace in Christ Jesus.

 

[HeIsHere]

Sin separates man from God.
Man is dead in his sin.

So man is separated from God, but not because he is dead, but because he has sinned. Being dead spiritually simply means he lacks the ability to relate to God on a spiritual level. We know from Romans 1 that he can know of God's existence from creation and from Ecclesiastes through conscience. But he is helpless to relate to God on a spiritual level. The only way for this to happen is for God to quicken such a one.

Your definition conflates 2 related things in a causal way. Man is both separated from God and dead. Both are the result of sin, but they are still 2 separate things.

Mankind’s inability to submit to God’s law does not prove their inability to trust in Christ who fulfilled the law for mankind.
Mankind’s inability to please God while acting in the flesh does not prove mankind’s inability to respond to the spiritual appeal of God through the Gospel so as to receive salvation.
The gospel IS God’s spiritual and gracious means. Faith comes by hearing!

To teach this concept of pre-faith regeneration or special enabling (prevenient grace) means that God (for some unknown reason) decided to punish all of us for the sin of Adam by making us all innately incapable of responding willingly (from birth mind you)
to His own word unless He actively did something to make us able again.

Does that make any rational sense if viewed objectively?

I wait for that verse that states the above clearly. You will not find it because it does not exist.

You can find all manner of descriptions of the fallen man but you have no link, no clearly stated scripture that teaches man is born unable respond to positively to the Gospel message.


What you doing is making a theological incorrect deduction which is made in spite of overwhelming verses which state the opposite.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

Spiritual life comes through a person exercising faith IN Christ Jesus, not the other way around.

 

[Cameron143]

Mankind’s inability to submit to God’s law does not prove their inability to trust in Christ who fulfilled the law for mankind.
Mankind’s inability to please God while acting in the flesh does not prove mankind’s inability to respond to the spiritual appeal of God through the Gospel so as to receive salvation.
The gospel IS God’s spiritual and gracious means. Faith comes by hearing!

To teach this concept of pre-faith regeneration or special enabling (prevenient grace) means that God (for some unknown reason) decided to punish all of us for the sin of Adam by making us all innately incapable of responding willingly (from birth mind you)
to His own word unless He actively did something to make us able again.

Does that make any rational sense if viewed objectively?

I wait for that verse that states the above clearly. You will not find it because it does not exist.

You can find all manner of descriptions of the fallen man but you have no link, no clearly stated scripture that teaches man is born unable respond to positively to the Gospel message.


What you doing is making a theological incorrect deduction which is made in spite of overwhelming verses which state the opposite.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

Spiritual life comes through a person exercising faith IN Christ Jesus, not the other way around.

Appreciate your reply.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

@ThereRoseaLamb



Yes you did, Tulip Truths are the Gospel, the very foundational blueprint of Gods saving Grace in Christ Jesus.

Man made, period.

 

[posthuman]

In order to understand Scripture sufficiently, it is necessary to study it systematically, which means to harmonize all relevant passages.

If you are willing to do that, I will begin on the Hermeneutics thread in about ten minutes, since that is its topic. See you there?

how about a straight answer, instead?

i believe He meant exactly what He literally said in Mark 4:10-12

do you?

 

[posthuman]

I will begin on the Hermeneutics thread in about ten minutes, since that is its topic. See you there?

i had classes today, and a little bit of work. could not join you in the other thread

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Romans 7:18-24a I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Amen lovely

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The spiritual man he follows the spirit the natural man follows after the flesh

 

[BillyBob]

Yes, everyone failed! So why did God give commands that He knew no one would be able to keep perfectly?

Perhaps it is to remind his very own people of their weakness and their need of His grace and mercy. At the same time, it leaves all others without excuse!

 

[brightfame52]

Man made, period.

You calling the Gospel man made

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

You calling the Gospel man made

Yes, that's what I said. Exactly. You got it Pontiac!! We're all focused on you. You have the attention of the room. I'll sit here and listen to all you have to say. I'm all ears!! Whatever you want to say, all day, every day, I'm here to listen. It's all about attention so the spotlight is on you. Go!

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

It was sarcasm. But thanks for the reply.

Oh well, God uses all for His glory and our good so no biggy then. Yeah, we all do have natural problems.

 

[Rufus]

Tulip is man made by Calvin and those who came after him. Show me the word or acronym in Word and I will believe your dogma. You can't because it isn't.




I never once said I didn't believe in predestination.

I take it by your request that you CANNOT believe in the triunity of God since the term "trinity" isn't found in scripture?

 

[Rufus]

To introduce the need for the messiah.

And so only the commands contained in the Covenant Law of Moses count for your stated purpose. What about the commands in the NT? There's no "need" for the Messiah under the New Covenant commands?