Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Matthew 7:17-18, Luke 6:44a, from John 15:4-5 Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from Me you can do nothing.
Thank you for the inspiration! .

 

[Cameron143]

Now, now, dear Cameron, you KNOW these free willers must make the natural man =with his heart of stone and hostile-
to-God mind= able to freely choose to believe that which he cannot even comprehend, to produce the fruit of faith...

Even despite Jesus negating the validity of such thinking, they whole heartily embrace it!

Even Jesus saying no one is good but God alone? Nah, to the free willer, Jesus was mistaken.

The natural man is good to go in their theology.

I wonder why they think a birth from above is even necessary. What purpose does it serve if it is unnecessary for salvation? And if a person needs to be yoked to Christ after they are saved, how is it that they don't need Him to get saved?

 

[Magenta]

I wonder why they think a birth from above is even necessary.What purpose does it serve if it is unnecessary for salvation?
And if a person needs to be yoked to Christ after they are saved, how is it that they don't need Him to get saved?

There are a great many verses overlooked and swept aside to hold to what they believe, and it does seem they have such scant understanding of the natural man, that they cannot even tell him apart from the spiritual man. We have even been told that those verses about the natural man only apply to the spiritual man LOL, and they have imbued the natural man with qualities and abilities only the spiritual man possesses. So when Jesus says you can do nothing apart from me? Oh, well, that must mean that only the spiritual man can do nothing aside from Jesus, because when it comes to believing that which is foolishness to the natural man, in their theology the stony heart produces the good fruit of faith with the aid of the hostile-to-God mind in laying aside their human will to do the will of God--- something even Jesus struggled to do! Their natural man is some powerful dude... nothing like the person Jesus describes.

 

[lrs68]

I wonder why they think a birth from above is even necessary. What purpose does it serve if it is unnecessary for salvation? And if a person needs to be yoked to Christ after they are saved, how is it that they don't need Him to get saved?

Just curious, what's the purpose of the people allowed to be born that you claim God ignores His invitation to?

Why are they even allowed to be born?

Is it because Hell needs the bodies?

 

[Cameron143]

Just curious, what's the purpose of the people allowed to be born that you claim God ignores His invitation to?

Why are they even allowed to be born?

Is it because Hell needs the bodies?

All things ultimately are to God's glory.

So what was God's purpose in creation?
To fill the earth with the knowledge of His glory.

How to do that?
Make sentient beings who He could display His glory to through interaction with Himself and creation.

So...He created man within His creation and tasked Him with caring for the creation and multiplying in order to fill the creation. Through interaction with God and His creation, man would fill the the earth with the knowledge of His glory.

The more that is revealed of God, the more glorious He appears. If all mankind were redeemed, much of God would be revealed. Certainly His love would be known and His grace and mercy as well. But little would be known of His righteousness, justice, and sovereignty.

If you were God and you wanted to reveal yourself fully, how would you have done it?

 

[lrs68]

All things ultimately are to God's glory.

So what was God's purpose in creation?
To fill the earth with the knowledge of His glory.

How to do that?
Make sentient beings who He could display His glory to through interaction with Himself and creation.

So...He created man within His creation and tasked Him with caring for the creation and multiplying in order to fill the creation. Through interaction with God and His creation, man would fill the the earth with the knowledge of His glory.

The more that is revealed of God, the more glorious He appears. If all mankind were redeemed, much of God would be revealed. Certainly His love would be known and His grace and mercy as well. But little would be known of His righteousness, justice, and sovereignty.

If you were God and you wanted to reveal yourself fully, how would you have done it?

If we read Romans 1 it's clear that even by examining Creation that God has manifested Himself to everyone born.

Do you believe that?

 

[Cameron143]

If we read Romans 1 it's clear that even by examining Creation that God has manifested Himself to everyone born.

Do you believe that?

Sure, at least enough to know of the existence of God. Do you believe what a man can know of God through creation is all there is to know of God?

 

[rogerg]

John 15:1-4
I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away,
and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of
the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

How do you read this statement, "Every branch in me that does not bear fruit"?

You missed the "and I in you", and "I in him", of verses 15:4 & 5.

Only those chosen by Christ as His disciples will/can bring forth fruit, the others, not - those, He takes away.

[Jhn 15:16 KJV]
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

[lrs68]

Sure, at least enough to know of the existence of God. Do you believe what a man can know of God through creation is all there is to know of God?

I am just threading together the thought process of if God makes Himself known and someone takes that to the point of buying a Bible that they will learn about God. If they believe it will be no different than how the Gentiles became Proselytized. And surely God would allow them to enter into the fold.

I say that because Romans 1 only talks about those who reject God. Surely not everyone who has the same manifested experience that Romans 1 speaks about rejected God but believed in God.

You and I were awaken but some only get what Romans 1 explains.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Sure, at least enough to know of the existence of God. Do you believe what a man can know of God through creation is all there is to know of God?

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We know God by the gospel of Jesus Christ our Lord

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17-18‬ ‭

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-7‬ ‭

“but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Cameron143]

I am just threading together the thought process of if God makes Himself known and someone takes that to the point of buying a Bible that they will learn about God. If they believe it will be no different than how the Gentiles became Proselytized. And surely God would allow them to enter into the fold.

I say that because Romans 1 only talks about those who reject God. Surely not everyone who has the same manifested experience that Romans 1 speaks about rejected God but believed in God.

You and I were awaken but some only get what Romans 1 explains.

What do you make of Romans 3:10 and following? Who is that describing?

 

[Magenta]

Jesus' words in Matthew 13:11-13 (Mark 4:11-12; Luke 8:10) Prophecy of Isaiah 6:9 Fulfilled ~
The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’

 

[lrs68]

What do you make of Romans 3:10 and following? Who is that describing?

I believe it as it is written so I apply that to Romans 1 as when God manifested Himself to these people, it's a way where God is now allowing them be awaken. Sadly, we still read that after the manifestation of God and them knowing it's God they still choose to reject God.

 

[Cameron143]

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We know God by the gospel of Jesus Christ our Lord

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17-18‬ ‭

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-7‬ ‭

“but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We know about God through the gospel. We know God through revelation...Blessed are you Simon...for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven...Matthew 16.

 

[Cameron143]

I believe it as it is written so I apply that to Romans 1 as when God manifested Himself to these people, it's a way where God is now allowing them be awaken. Sadly, we still read that after the manifestation of God and them knowing it's God they still choose to reject God.

What do you make of the part that none seeks after God?

 

[lrs68]

What do you make of the part that none seeks after God?

If God manifests Himself to someone that seems intentional so they will seek after God.

 

[Cameron143]

If God manifests Himself to someone that seems intentional so they will seek after God.

I agree. But that's revelation and not what is being spoken of in Romans 1.

 

[lrs68]

I agree. But that's revelation and not what is being spoken of in Romans 1.

Romans 1 states that God manifested Himself to them and they knew He was God but still rejected God so God gave them a reprobate mind.

So revealing still made someone dead in sin to know that God exists and they still have the ability to reject God.

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 1 states that God manifested Himself to them and they knew He was God but still rejected God so God gave them a reprobate mind.

So revealing still made someone dead in sin to know that God exists and they still have the ability to reject God.

Do you understand that there is a difference between what can be known through creation and conscience which comes via the natural faculties of man and that which is through revelation that comes supernaturally?
What is manifested in Romans 1 is available to all because it comes through natural means.

 

[lrs68]

Do you understand that there is a difference between what can be known through creation and conscience which comes via the natural faculties of man and that which is through revelation that comes supernaturally?
What is manifested in Romans 1 is available to all because it comes through natural means.

I don't think you are understanding the value of God manifesting Himself to a person to the point they now believe there is a God.

These people in Romans 1 just chose to deny accepting Him as God but they still understood that He was God.

Let's look at it from the opposite viewpoint where God manifested Himself and they continue to acknowledge Him as God. Are you saying God would reject them?