Understanding God’s election

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Dec 18, 2021
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#81
First, you don't know what God has planned. Second, the desire to pray may well have been placed in your heart by God.

Paul planted, Apollos watered. God gave the increase. We are workmen together with God.
Why bother planing if there is no hope.

I pray my friend, you realize how damning fatalism to the character of God..
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#82
So tell us how that works with Rahab, the Gibeonites, Ruth, the widow of Zarephath, Naaman.....and innumerable others in the OT.

What I see regarding these neo-hyper-Calvinists is ARROGANCE.
Also this bizarre notion that the Church is SUPERIOR.
And they repeat the same sin of Israel: that they are CHOSENITES......and NOBODY ELSE IS.

I could not think of a more damaging and dangerous realm of ideation.
Salvation has never changed and I apologize if I suggested that any group is superior to another. Just because the OT doesn't disclose the full picture of salvation doesn't mean salvation hasn't always been by grace through faith. No one can belong to Christ apart from being a partaker of the Spirit.
So...this begs the question: did Abraham belong to Christ? Of course he did. Was he saved by grace through faith? Yup. Was faith the result of God speaking to him? Sure was. Same as anyone today. He was indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
In order for the other people and groups you mentioned to be saved is that God gave revelation of Himself to them. This is always the case when salvation occurs.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#83
Why bother planing if there is no hope.

I pray my friend, you realize how damning fatalism to the character of God..
God's character doesn't change regardless of what people do. And I'm not a fatalist. I do, however, believe God acts sovereignly and in accordance with His good pleasure.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#84
In order for the other people and groups you mentioned to be saved is that God gave revelation of Himself to them. This is always the case when salvation occurs.
That right. And everyone in the world has the Bible which is all the revelation they need.

The Canaanites ALSO had documentary evidence BTW. And testimony.
As did Pharaoh. HE KNEW about Abraham, Issac, Jacob and Joseph. HE KNEW that they were Gods elect priests.

And God reminded him.

And "firstborn" son is a title. Jacob traded stew for it.

[Exo 4:22 KJV]
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:

[Exo 4:23 KJV]
And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, [even] thy firstborn.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#85
So tell us how that works with Rahab, the Gibeonites, Ruth, the widow of Zarephath, Naaman.....and innumerable others in the OT.
I just did. He comes in some manner and communicates knowledge of Himself to them. God doesn't tell us their particular stories in great detail, only that they came to trust in Him.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#86
That right. And everyone in the world has the Bible which is all the revelation they need.

The Canaanites ALSO had documentary evidence BTW. And testimony.
As did Pharaoh. HE KNEW about Abraham, Issac, Jacob and Joseph. HE KNEW that they were Gods elect priests.

And God reminded him.

And "firstborn" son is a title. Jacob traded stew for it.

[Exo 4:22 KJV]
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:

[Exo 4:23 KJV]
And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, [even] thy firstborn.
And "firstborn" son is a family priestly headship title. Jacob traded stew for it. As far as Esau was concerned.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#87
I just did. He comes in some manner and communicates knowledge of Himself to them. God doesn't tell us their particular stories in great detail, only that they came to trust in Him.
Anyways, hyper-Calvinism debunked. Again. Gone.

And will very minimal effort.

And good riddance.
 
Dec 18, 2021
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#88
God's character doesn't change regardless of what people do. And I'm not a fatalist. I do, however, believe God acts sovereignly and in accordance with His good pleasure.
If you believe that God predestines anyone to hell. And he makes sure they go there by not making them able to repent and believe the gospel and believe by refusing to make them alive so they can believe (regeneration before faith or justification)

then you are a fatalist.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#89
If you believe that God predestines anyone to hell. And he makes sure they go there by not making them able to repent and believe the gospel and believe by refusing to make them alive so they can believe (regeneration before faith or justification)

then you are a fatalist.
Ok. I don't believe anyone is predestined to hell. That's what you believe I believe. I believe people fit themselves for destruction.
So again, I'm not a fatalist.
 
Dec 18, 2021
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#90
Ok. I don't believe anyone is predestined to hell. That's what you believe I believe. I believe people fit themselves for destruction.
So again, I'm not a fatalist.
so you believe in free will praise god

but you sure do not sound like you do in’s some of your posts
 
Nov 12, 2021
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#91
Understanding God’s election

This is one of the most Misunderstood word in scripture -----

People ---God had a plan before He Created this earth ---that plan was to incarnate His Son to walk this earth and become the ultimate Sacrificial Lamb to free all people of all Sin for all time ----- Past --present and future Sins are forgiven for All people -----God does not just Elect--( choose ) some to be saved and others not to be saved -----


That is not what this word elect means -----we were all elected to be adopted back into God's family through Jesus Christ ---before God Created this world and us Humans -----that was in His plan -----



Ephesians 1:4-6

Common English Bible

4 God chose us in Christ to be holy and blameless in God’s presence before the creation of the world.

5 God destined us to be his adopted children through Jesus Christ because of his love. This was according to his goodwill and plan

6 and to honor his glorious grace that he has given to us freely through the Son whom he loves.


God does not show Favoritism ---

  • Deuteronomy 10:17: "For the Lord your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, mighty, and awe-inspiring God, showing no partiality and taking no bribe"


  • Ephesians 6:9: "There is no favoritism with him"


  • Romans 2:11: "For there is no favoritism with God"

The greek word for Elect

Eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
Parts of Speech Adjective
Eklektos Definition
NAS Word Usage - Total: 22
  1. picked out, chosen
    1. chosen by God,
      1. to obtain salvation through Christ ---Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
I say
How does one become a Christian ----accept Christ -----we have free will to Choose to Accept Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross --or Refuse Jesus Christ and what he did on the Cross ----

That is our choice ---God elected ALL People to come back into His Family by our receiving Salvation and it is there for us ---we are the ones who choose to be in the elected or chosen or not to be -----

God wants Everyone Saved

1730481377943.jpeg

Not all people choose to be saved ------the Elect are God's Saints who have personally chosen to accept His Salvation offer -----

God Knows our Hearts and knows who's heart will be receptive to His Gospel ----and God allows the people who's hearts are hardened toward Him and His Word to have their way ----God does not Force people to come to Him ----we have free will to Choose LIFE or DEATH -----
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,878
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#92
Whoa! That natural guy has problems.
that’s what this about

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3, 5-6‬ ‭

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: ( the sinner dies ) that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.( the child of God is born n Christ ) knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7‬ ‭

this leads into a necassary behavioral change

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. ( we have to stop serving sin )

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: ( stop letting sin control our actions ) but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. ( and choose to start serving God with our actions )

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. ( we don’t have the excuse we’re just sinners anymore if we’re born again can’t be new and also still the old )


What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. ( is it okay for us to sin now because of grace ? By no means )

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

( we can choose to yield to and obey sin or obedience )

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, ( we used to be just sinners lost not capable ) but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:12-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But through obeying the truth of the gospel we are made free from sins power to control us and dominate us as before the sinner dies with Christ . It’s not freedom from doing what’s right but freedom from sins power over us our deeds ll determine the end
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#93
so you believe in free will praise god

but you sure do not sound like you do in’s some of your posts
I don't believe in freewill either. An individual's will is subject to some nature. One is either a slave to sin or set free by Christ, who is then one's new Master.

Because we are all in Adam, we all begin as slaves to sin. Read Ephesians 2:1-3 to see what that looks like. This is what necessitates salvation.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,729
6,437
113
62
#94
Understanding God’s election

This is one of the most Misunderstood word in scripture -----

People ---God had a plan before He Created this earth ---that plan was to incarnate His Son to walk this earth and become the ultimate Sacrificial Lamb to free all people of all Sin for all time ----- Past --present and future Sins are forgiven for All people -----God does not just Elect--( choose ) some to be saved and others not to be saved -----


That is not what this word elect means -----we were all elected to be adopted back into God's family through Jesus Christ ---before God Created this world and us Humans -----that was in His plan -----



Ephesians 1:4-6

Common English Bible

4 God chose us in Christ to be holy and blameless in God’s presence before the creation of the world.

5 God destined us to be his adopted children through Jesus Christ because of his love. This was according to his goodwill and plan

6 and to honor his glorious grace that he has given to us freely through the Son whom he loves.


God does not show Favoritism ---

  • Deuteronomy 10:17: "For the Lord your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, mighty, and awe-inspiring God, showing no partiality and taking no bribe"


  • Ephesians 6:9: "There is no favoritism with him"


  • Romans 2:11: "For there is no favoritism with God"

The greek word for Elect

Eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
Parts of Speech Adjective
Eklektos Definition
NAS Word Usage - Total: 22
  1. picked out, chosen
    1. chosen by God,
      1. to obtain salvation through Christ ---Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
I say
How does one become a Christian ----accept Christ -----we have free will to Choose to Accept Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross --or Refuse Jesus Christ and what he did on the Cross ----

That is our choice ---God elected ALL People to come back into His Family by our receiving Salvation and it is there for us ---we are the ones who choose to be in the elected or chosen or not to be -----

God wants Everyone Saved

View attachment 269227

Not all people choose to be saved ------the Elect are God's Saints who have personally chosen to accept His Salvation offer -----

God Knows our Hearts and knows who's heart will be receptive to His Gospel ----and God allows the people who's hearts are hardened toward Him and His Word to have their way ----God does not Force people to come to Him ----we have free will to Choose LIFE or DEATH -----
That would be accurate if Romans 8:29 said WHAT God foreknew rather than WHOM He foreknew. But it doesn't. God doesn't say He foreknew hearts; He foreknew people.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,085
3,677
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#96
Ok. I don't believe anyone is predestined to hell. That's what you believe I believe. I believe people fit themselves for destruction.
So again, I'm not a fatalist.
If God did not choose them for salvation, they are predestined for hell. Pretty simple.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,878
5,622
113
#97
Ok. I don't believe anyone is predestined to hell. That's what you believe I believe. I believe people fit themselves for destruction.
So again, I'm not a fatalist.
So if they go to hell it’s tbier fault but if they don’t go to hell it’s Gods choice regardless of thier deeds ?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#99
If God did not choose them for salvation, they are predestined for hell. Pretty simple.
Not so. He simply allowed them to follow their fallen nature. They made themselves meet for destruction; not God.