Understanding God’s election

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Jul 3, 2015
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I love reading your posts, sister; for your passion and love for the Lord shines through every one of them! (y)

John 3 verse 3, John 1 verse 13, James 1 verse 18, Romans 8 verse 9b, 1 Peter 2 verse 9 ~ Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” Born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. You are chosen to proclaim the virtues of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. My soul will exult in my God, for He has clothed me with garments of salvation, and wrapped me in a robe of righteousness. Plus Isaiah 61 verse 10
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Besides argument from silence, back to the basics of context again, son. It's simply not what he's talking about. It's like asking why Moses didn't give any credit to man's volition in Gen1.

If you want to get to the Christian's volition in this context, then go to verses like 3:18, 21 where Paul is issuing commands to choose to reject or obey.



Because just as there is no seed and no water and no soil and all the ways God has designed them to work together, Paul knows that apart from God there is no Gospel with its inherent power and there is no teaching and explaining in words provided by God and there is thus no growth apart from God.

But Paul is also speaking of credit - negative or positive - for God's fellow-workers in 3:8 on.

Paul also knows that apart from God's grace, he has no ministry let alone no life.


You manufacture turmoil.
Oh...you mean the passage wherein Paul warns the Corinthians to quit deceiving themselves and boasting about men -- just like Paul didn't boast about man's ability to grow himself earlier in the passage? You should pay closer attention to Paul and quit boasting about how smart and spiritual savvy some sinners are compared to others.

And God's fellow-workers will receive "credit" (rewards) not because they were anything in and of themselves but because they obeyed God's call and were faithful servants.

When Paul said said that he and his fellow workers weren't anything -- but ONLY God who gives the increase -- I'm mindful of something else Paul told the church in Rome:

Rom 9:15-16
15 For he says to Moses,


"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy

NIV

You see...man can plant, sow, water, cultivate the land, etc. 'till the cows come home; but if it doesn't please God to have the ground grow anything -- then guess what!? Where does that leave all the workers of the land? It seems to me that the one who totally controls the forces and elements of nature is the one really in charge -- not your so-called smarter sinners v. the dumber ones. At the end of the day, it's all on God who has mercy and compassion on whom he WANTS to have. Did the Holy Spirit in Acts 16 desire to have mercy on the Asians?

Your secular humanism has an aroma of death to it.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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John 15 verse 5c; Philippians 2 verse 13 Apart from Me you can do nothing. For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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1 Corinthians 3 verses 6-7 ~ I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God Who makes things grow.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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I worked things out a long time ago, madam. Unlike you, I know God saves all men [w/o distinction] in this world. If Christ actually and truly and really atoned for the sins of all men w/o exception (as opposed to potentially atoning), then this must mean that he also redeemed all men in the world w/o exception, right? Yet, the same apostle wrote elsewhere:

Rev 5:9
9 And they sang a new song:


"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,

and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
NIV


Does your translation read that God redeemed/purchased ALL men for God, or each and every person for God, or all men w/o exception for God? Or does the passage say that the Lamb potentially purchased all men for God?

And again,

Rev 7:9
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
NIV


Or does the above passage say that "before me was a multitude consisting of everyone in the world..."?

Eisegesis is a bear because you're adding to scripture what God did not put into it! You see the term "world" or "whole world" -- and then you have this knee jerk reaction that triggers an interpretation of "each and every person w/o exception", as being the only viable way of understanding the passage.

Also, since God is a covenant God in that he has established the medium of covenants to form the basis for Him having a personal, saving, redemptive relationship with his chosen people, then please point me to the covenant that God made with all men w/o exception. Where is this covenant that God universally made with all men? What are this covenant's conditions? Don't you know that God's covenant of love is made only with his elect (Deut 7:9-12; Dan 9:4, etc.). When Christ instituted the New Covenant at the Last Supper, did he institute that covenant with the entire world or with his chosen people?
I'd have to want to go where you're trying to lead me with all those leading questions so you must suppose that doesn't want me to go there, right?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Rev 5:9
9 And they sang a new song:


"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,

and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
NIV
Snippets of this song have been playing in my mind for a few days now...


Chris Tomlin - Is He Worthy? (Live)
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,761
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What verse in Mat 22 states "corporate election"? There's nothing in the parable that says that the king sent out his servants to gather the nations to his wedding feast. But they did go out to gather individuals from other ethnicities.

Jesus did not teach that many nations are called but few nations are chosen. Which of the few nations on this earth are chosen? You must know which nations, right?
Of course I know which nations would have the green light for the gospel.

Nations that were chosen include; Macedonia, Türkiye, Italy, Greece, Spain, North Africa, etc.

The nations above were given

Here are some examples below that had a red light for the gospel for a very long time.

New Zealand Gospel arrived nineteenth century.
Japan Gospel arrived sixteenth century.
North America Gospel arrived sixteenth century.
South Africa Gospel arrived seventeenth century.
Australia Gospel arrived nineteenth century.
Indonesia Gospel arrived sixteenth century.

There are a lot of other countries in Asia that also waited a long time.

There are seven countries that the gospel cannot be preached in, see below.

Nth Korea, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, etc.

No sovereign election in those seven countries.

We could add that many Islamic nations that would have an extremely low Christian conversion rate. A miniscule degree of sovereign election in many Islamic countries.

Sovereign election is a regional phenomenon; it depends where you live.
You might assume that, but I never did! You don't pay attention to what people write. I have frequently stated on this thread and in others as well that God does save ALL men w/o distinction. It's you FWs who think that Christ died for all men w/o exception, remember?

The megabytes of irony about the Acts passage you quote is that it clearly refutes the FWs' ASSUMPTION that God doesn't want anyone on the planet to perish! Yet, here we have a text that teaches that the Spirit of Christ would not permit them to go into Asia! How "politically/theologically incorrect" is that!? There are FWs here who see God as the EOE (Equal Opportunity Employer) kinda guy who treats all men equally because if he didn't He'd be vile, unjust monster. :rolleyes:

So...Mr. Delusional Winner , can you rattle off who all the elect nations are? Or better yet, just address the passage I quoted earlier in which Jesus Jesus told Israel that the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to another NATION!

Matt 21:43
43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

NKJV

Since you're so full of yourself, you should be able to tell me who the specific nation is that was given the Kingdom of God. Not only that but this nation, according to Jesus, will actually bear the fruits of the kingdom! Why don't you write a list for us of which nations on this planet are so faithful to God that they are actually bearing kingdom fruit.

And has any nation in the world (Vatican excluded) declared itself to officially be a Christian nation, has adopted God's holy laws for their own laws of their land, and have evicted all the pagans in their officially Christian land? Or do all these elect national entities still permit idolaters to reside and flourish in their lands with false religions of their own? Do these elect national entities follow in the footsteps of OC apostate Israel by allowing pagans to influence public policy and to corrupt believers in their lands? Is this NC dispensation just more of the same ol' OC economy?

Or since you think God's elect are all the nations in the world, then you should be able to find in scripture the covenant that God made with all the nations in the world, since historically God's relationship with his chosen people has been and is by covenant only. I would dearly love to see the conditions for this universal covenant of love that God has made with the entire world.

P.S. One other thing before I forget. You say above that in Jesus' parable national Israel refused the invitation. So...since that is the case, where does that leave all the individual Jews who did not refuse? What "nation" are they part of? Where and how do they fit in to your scheme of election of nations?
What verse in Mat 22 states "corporate election"? There's nothing in the parable that says that the king sent out his servants to gather the nations to his wedding feast. But they did go out to gather individuals from other ethnicities.

Jesus did not teach that many nations are called but few nations are chosen. Which of the few nations on this earth are chosen? You must know which nations, right?

Of course, I know which nations would have the green light for the gospel.

Nations that were chosen; Macedonia, Türkiye, Italy, Greece, Spain, North Africa, etc.

Here are some examples below that had a red light for the gospel for a very long time.

New Zealand Gospel arrived nineteenth century.
Japan Gospel arrived sixteenth century.
North America Gospel arrived sixteenth century.
South Africa Gospel arrived seventeenth century.
Australia Gospel arrived nineteenth century.
Indonesia Gospel arrived sixteenth century.

There are a lot of other countries in Asia that also waited a long time.

There are seven countries that the gospel cannot be preached in, see below.

Nth Korea, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, etc.

No sovereign election in those seven countries.

We could add that many Islamic nations that would have an extremely low Christian conversion rate.

A miniscule degree of sovereign election in many Islamic countries.

Conclusion, sovereign election is a regional phenomenon and it depended on where you live.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Oh...you mean the passage wherein Paul warns the Corinthians to quit deceiving themselves and boasting about men -- just like Paul didn't boast about man's ability to grow himself earlier in the passage? You should pay closer attention to Paul and quit boasting about how smart and spiritual savvy some sinners are compared to others.
So, are we doing the usual and shifting away from your original erroneous point you inserted apart from context and in argument from silence? Of course we are, as expected.

I pointed out a few commands to Christian volition. So, yes, I meant those commands. Part of the issue Paul is dealing with is youthful ignorance and resultant volition. So, Paul is instructing to fix the ignorance so volition will be applied appropriately. You may want to consider this theme in regard to the Gospel.

And God's fellow-workers will receive "credit" (rewards) not because they were anything in and of themselves but because they obeyed God's call and were faithful servants.
As I said, there is positive and negative credit being discussed. It is based upon the quality of work done and materials used.

I also covered the concept of men being nothing apart from God. Yet you turn it onto an argument as If I didn't. As I said, you create turmoil. It's obviously a personal problem.

When Paul said said that he and his fellow workers weren't anything -- but ONLY God who gives the increase -- I'm mindful of something else Paul told the church in Rome:
Your mindfulness is the cause for much turmoil and misdirection. Also, it really doesn't matter if you capitalize your insertion of "ONLY" because the word is not in the Text. There is implication we can all understand, and I spoke of it, but the way you insert it is typical of how you treat the involvement of men, in this instance men whom God has chosen to work together with.

Your last many words are more of the same as already explained above. From your closing rant we can see your consistent and repetitive ad-hominem fallacy, actually a really dumb one, yet only another one.

At times it strikes me that you may be a plant to show how bad is the tradition you advocate for. But then you'd have to be better at non-fallacious argumentation, so the focus was more the tradition rather than how poor your arguments are.