Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

Rom10:15-17 And how are they to make official announcements if they are not sent? Just as it has been written, How beautiful the feet of the men who proclaim good news [of] good things. But not all [men] obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, Lord, who believed our news? Therefore, the faith from news, and the news through God's spoken word.

God is the source of faith?

Or God is the source of good news that is believed and obeyed?

Both. Hearing biblically does not merely mean to hear audibly, but to hear with understanding. If it simply meant audible hearing of the gospel, everyone who heard would get saved.
Hearing itself is only part of the equation for salvation. There is also the matter of the circumcision of the heart. We find both in Acts 2:37, which leads to a response of the will...men and brethren, what shall we do?
It is probable that many more than 3000 persons heard audibly Peter's sermon, yet only 3000 heard, were pricked, and responded.
I realize you believe that in salvation God responds to the actions of men. This would make God move in response to men and be a respecter of men. In actuality, God is the first mover and those He moves upon respond to His activity. Otherwise, men have a basis for boasting.

 

[Mem]

Both. Hearing biblically does not merely mean to hear audibly, but to hear with understanding. If it simply meant audible hearing of the gospel, everyone who heard would get saved.
Hearing itself is only part of the equation for salvation. There is also the matter of the circumcision of the heart. We find both in Acts 2:37, which leads to a response of the will...men and brethren, what shall we do?
It is probable that many more than 3000 persons heard audibly Peter's sermon, yet only 3000 heard, were pricked, and responded.
I realize you believe that in salvation God responds to the actions of men. This would make God move in response to men and be a respecter of men. In actuality, God is the first mover and those He moves upon respond to His activity. Otherwise, men have a basis for boasting.

I can view this as 3000 persons having tender enough hearts that they could felt a prick (good soil) while the others hearts are 'hardened" (stony soil).

 

[Cameron143]

While that is included in the meaning, it simply is not all inclusive of its entire meaning.

I fail in the school of TULIP, that is true.
God is the object of faith, hearing the word of God is the source by which one generates and draws faith.
[QOUTE="Cameron143, post: 546375, member: 314370"]You also fail to point out that God is also the source of the righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees...having no righteousness of my own...but that which is through the faith of Christ...

...having no righteousness of my own...but...that which is through faith...
You undoubtedly argue here that this is Christ's faith that God's accounts for righteousness, I argue that, although not without being generated by Christ's exemplification of His faith, God saw Abraham's faith, in God word, and counted it for his righteousness.[/QUOTE]
The very fact that God imputes or ascribes righteousness to Abraham means that the righteousness didn't originate with Abraham. Further, neither did his faith. It came by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Faith is simply the conduit of grace. If the grace necessary for his salvation comes from outside himself, of necessity, the faith it employs does also.

 

[Cameron143]

I can view this as 3000 persons having tender enough hearts that they could felt a prick (good soil) while the others hearts are 'hardened" (stony soil).

Who prepares the soil?

 

[studier]

NKJ Acts10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works (to accomplish) righteousness is accepted (welcomed) by Him.

Clearly, God shows no partiality to national boundaries.

It seems God is looking here at non-Christian men in all nations who fear God and who are working to accomplish righteousness and saying they are welcomed by Him.

Thus, the in-context story of Cornelius: NKJ Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.

Seems to me this is the God-fearing Gentile who had not rejected the knowledge of God Paul speaks of in Rom1 and who came to believe in the God of Israel through the Jews God had dispersed into the nations, generously supported the Jews and prayed to God always. So, God sends a proclaimer of Good News commanded (Acts10:33) this Gentile God-fearer.

Maybe there's a message here about those whom God is seeking (John4:20-26) and who willingly and obediently respond in faith.

 

[GWH]

That is incorrect. It means God doesn't choose based on anything in man. It means He chooses sovereignly. For reference, see why God chose Israel...Deuteronomy 7:6-8.

Choosing sovereignly and not based on anything in man means something different from "being no respecter of persons and
no one will be denied the opportunity to repent and be saved/elect" only in your fallible opinion.

 

[studier]

Both. Hearing biblically does not merely mean to hear audibly, but to hear with understanding. If it simply meant audible hearing of the gospel, everyone who heard would get saved.

I know where you're going with this so I'm breaking it apart to see how you get there. There is nothing said in those Rom10 verses re: any inability of men to understand the Good News spoken and sent by God.

Hearing itself is only part of the equation for salvation. There is also the matter of the circumcision of the heart. We find both in Acts 2:37, which leads to a response of the will...men and brethren, what shall we do?

Insert theory of circumcision of heart preceding understanding and faith.

Acts2:37 does not say men were circumcised of the heart. It says idiomatically that they were stabbed/pierced in the heart which is figurative for feeling the pain of anxiety and remorse - being deeply moved (BDAG) - by what they had heard about their crucifying their Messiah.

If it were circumcision of heart, even then it would be following just after being told Jesus is their Messiah.

It is probable that many more than 3000 persons heard audibly Peter's sermon, yet only 3000 heard, were pricked, and responded.
I realize you believe that in salvation God responds to the actions of men. This would make God move in response to men and be a respecter of men. In actuality, God is the first mover and those He moves upon respond to His activity. Otherwise, men have a basis for boasting.

I'm reading the Text and not doing an exercise in probability to support a theory.

What I believe from the Text is that God originates - or as you say, is the first mover - which I've repeatedly made clear, and men choose to accept or reject Him. The first move is to make His power and divinity known to all men (Rom1) and then to proclaim the Good News of His Son to men. Men can choose to accept or reject either or both of these God-originated and imparted pieces of information and thereby choose to accept or reject God.

 

[studier]

It means God doesn't choose based on anything in man

Please support your statement with Scripture. A few places to begin:

How does this work re: Cornelius in Acts10?​

​

How does this work for John4:23?​

​

cc: @GWH

 

[Magenta]

And the natural mans default position is......Sorry bud, good luck. Jesus might save you.

You ought to read the Bible for a better understanding of the natural man.

 

[Magenta]

One thing, though. if you're going to talk to me like this, I have zero interest in discussing anything with you.

As you and I have done before, no, I'll answer you in any way I choose to answer you.

Your hypocrisy. Is. Blatant.

 

[Mem]

Who prepares the soil?

I love gardening, I could leave the soil as is but I work it to get a better yield in the fruit. Although a sprout has the potential to yield fruit if it has taken root in good soil. The parable of the sower depicts him scattering seed, not working the soil. There is an example of working the soil in that of the fig tree that bore no fruit which the steward wanted to chop down and the gardener pleading for another year and the chance to dig around it.

 

[Magenta]

I love gardening, I could leave the soil as is but I work it to get a better yield in the fruit. Although a sprout has the potential to yield fruit if it has taken root in good soil. The parable of the sower depicts him scattering seed, not working the soil. There is an example of working the soil in that of the fig tree that bore no fruit which the steward wanted to chop down and the gardener pleading for another year and the chance to dig around it.

Hmmm, Scripture is clear that the heart of man requires being circumcised.
A bad tree (there are none good, no not one!) cannot produce good fruit.
Jesus said so.
But I suppose that requires some digging around that many are unprepared to do.
Though it does seem apparent to others that it is God who opens people's hearts...
Jesus came to open the eyes of the blind, unstop the ears of the deaf, and raise people to new life.

Luke 4 verses 18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.

 

[HeIsHere]

Insert theory of circumcision of heart preceding understanding and faith.

Underscore on the theory part.

“Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”
Hebrews 3:15

 

[Mem]

A bad tree (there are none good, no not one!) cannot produce good fruit.

In the parable, the gardener hasn't doesn't up hope for the (bad) tree, he recognizes its potential to produce fruit. He reasons for the possibility there is inadequate nutrients available to it so he constructs a plan to dig down which opens access to the root from which the tree draws its nutrients and apply dung, so the question of sufficient nutrients can be remedied. However, he leaves open the possibility that it might yet be fit for destruction, if that solution doesn't result in a yield of fruit.

 

[Magenta]

Righteousness Of Christ ~ “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” You were dead in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. The Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it. If Christ is in you, your spirit is alive because of righteousness. We put on the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Magenta]

Underscore on the theory part.

Philippians 3:3; Colossians 2:11; Romans 2:29b ~ For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. You were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

 

[Magenta]

In the parable, the gardener hasn't doesn't up hope for the (bad) tree, he recognizes its potential to produce fruit. He reasons for the possibility there is inadequate nutrients available to it so he constructs a plan to dig down which opens access to the root from which the tree draws its nutrients and apply dung, so the question of sufficient nutrients can be remedied. However, he leaves open the possibility that it might yet be fit for destruction, if that solution doesn't result in a yield of fruit.

Ah, you refer to one parable only, whereas a number of times agricultural parables are employed such as the spreading of seeds which certain soils can either receive or not, the majority of people being in the "not" column. This parable you speak of is more about the destruction of the temple sacrificial system, for Jesus is on His way to Jerusalem in the week coming up to His crucifixion... with Him being the ultimate sacrifice, the blood of bulls and rams, which never ever removed sins anyways, is no longer required. He is actually prophesying.

Well, He is in fact the reality that the temple sacrificial system was pointing to.

 

[Magenta]

From Hebrews 10 verses 1, 4, and 1 Corinthians 5 verse 7 The law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves... because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Christ our Passover Lamb has been sacrificed for us. Thank you, Jesus!

 

[Magenta]

God is building a new temple known as the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 6 verses 19-20 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.

 

[Cameron143]

Please support your statement with Scripture. A few places to begin:

How does this work re: Cornelius in Acts10?​

​

How does this work for John4:23?​

​

cc: @GWH

Daniel 4:35.