Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

I believe precisely what John3:16-17 say. They do not say what you're saying they say.



I'm sure if you'd want to you could put this together. By reading Genesis1-2, how long was the kosmos in the sense of the inhabited world uninhabited? Reading John1:9-10 it's pretty easy to see how John is speaking mainly of the inhabited kosmos and of its inhabitants. There's no dilemma re: the meaning of kosmos here and it's same meaning in John3:16-17.

Thanks for the link. It confirms what I said re: meanings of kosmos and the necessity of paying attention to context.

Look at all John's uses of kosmos from John1-3. What Jesus was sent for is very clear John1:9-10, John 1:29, John3:16-17.



I don't see a contradiction. And this gets back to what I was saying about our inabilities to grasp - to understand - God's Love and what it means that God is Love. And as I said, we are seeing and living dimly and at our best we are but images of Him and distinct from Him.

There was a teacher I know some on these threads were taught or influenced by, RBThieme. In one of his series on Love he essentially said God does not love us because of who we are, but because of who He is. RBT called this impersonal love as I recall. He taught it in part to impress a mindset upon Christians how we are to function in God's image, with a character matured to better imitate God who is Love. He broke love down into impersonal (where you might categorize beneficent love) and personal (where you might place filial love) categories

It's not out of reason that men can love - be loving - even when hating. What can God, who is Love, do? John3:16 God loved the world in this manner: He gave His Son

Scripturally re: the contradiction you're proposing:

NKJ Psalm 11:5 The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked (asebēs) and the one who loves violence His soul hates.​

​

NKJ Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly (asebēs), his faith is accounted for righteousness,​

​

NKJ Romans 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly (asebēs).​

​

Apparently, YHWH's soul hates the ungodly (Psalm11:5) Yet God loved the kosmos of ungodly men by giving His only Son (John3:16) who died for ungodly men (Rom5:6) - ungodly men whom God justifies (Rom5:6) - every man in the kosmos who believes for eternal life (John3:16) and is saved (John3:17).​

​

As I said, I don't see a contradiction.​

​

What I think is that we're too quick to see God through human eyes and human experience as humans that are only created in His image but are not Him especially when still living in a fallen creation in psuchikos bodies.​

I don't agree with this reasoning. I think it's easy to see even just from the above and from what I've explained from GJohn that God gave His Son so "every man" in/of the kosmos who believes may have eternal life. God's Love is simply infinitely more vast than the simplistic love vs. hate that men have.

As Christians I think we're supposed to begin grasping this just as Paul prayed for (Eph3:14-21; Col3:14; 1John2:5; 1John4:12 1John4:17 1John4:18)

Yeah, Jn 3:16-17 is very clear and plain. If God loves each and every person in the world (even those He NEVER KNEW) , then to be consistent you have to say that v. 17 is saying that God sent his Son into the world to save all men w/o exception.

Also, you obviously make no distinction between God's common grace (Mat 5:45) and his benevolent dispostion of heart that moves him to sustain this inhabitated world of saints and sinners alike with temporal blessing and His saving grace which is a particular grace that eternally saves the souls of elect individuals, which is what Jn 3:16 is all about. And as I pointed out in my 11,515 it's very reasonable to infer from all scripture that God sustains this world ultimately for the sake of Christ first and then his elect.

Finally, while I see EVERYTHING coming from and through Christ to me (including God's precious love for me), at the same time I also know that God LOVES me personally because he doesn't see my OLD MAN any longer. He sees Christ in me! He sees Christ's imputed righteousness in me. He sees me as the New Man. In short, if it weren't for my Federal Head, God could never love me with a covenantal love. Scripture is crystal clear on who God loves. There are NUMEROUS qualified "God loves" verses in the bible. And I have yet to come across one that says explicitly that He loves sinners or evildoers or the wicked or fools. He loves those [covenantally] who love him and obey him. And that, sir, is CONDITIONAL love! It's really that simple. Since the Father loved his own Son on the condition of His obedience, then what in the world would ever make you think that he would covenantally love sinners unconditionally? Did God have one set of rules for his Son and another set for his brothers and sisters? Whatever you want to believe about how God deals with his haters/detractors of this world, that's up to you. You want to believe that he loves them just as much and in the same way as his chosen covenant people...be my guest. I, though, will always go with clear, plain, explicit, unambiguous passages on any given topic over passages where one must make an inference from the text about the topic at hand -- most especially when a key term in a passage has many meanings, which is the case with "kosmos". You must read into Jn 3:16 that God loves all men w/o exception. That is the only way you or anyone else can come to that kind of conclusion.

Anyhoo...as the old saying goes: I can explain it to ya, but it's above my pay grade to get you to understand it.

 

[studier]

Yeah, Jn 3:16-17 is very clear and plain. If God loves each and every person in the world (even those He NEVER KNEW) , then to be consistent you have to say that v. 17 is saying that God sent his Son into the world to save all men w/o exception.

You don't see the necessity of belief in John3:16 as an exception to "all men w/o exception"? John 3:17 isn't a stand-alone verse. It's actually tied to John3:16 with an explanatory conjunction meaning it's explaining or elaborating John3:16. The belief in John3:16 carries over into John3:17. He sent His Son to save the kosmos of men. If all men w/o exception believe, then all men w/o exception can be saved.

 

[PaulThomson]

Okay, what do you want me to do exactly?

Provide in whatever manner you wish, the full verses you are referencing, and don't post only verse references. If you don't care enough about other posters to do that, people may eventually may find it easier just put you on ignore, rather than invest time in reading your posts only to find we cannot understand your poins unless we allow you to steal more of our time chasing down Bible verses you were too lazy to include in your own post.

 

[PaulThomson]

No. It's either extended or not. If it is extended, it is unconditional for the recipient.

You obviously do not love your own children unconditionally, because you do not love all children with the same love as you have for your own children. You love children more if they are your own children. That is a conditional love.

God's love for creatures is the same kind of love for every creature descibed in 1 Cor, 13: agape. It is a love that treasures what is inherently valuable in those creatures. In that regard one could say that God extends His love towards all creatures unconditionally. No matter how good or evil a creature is God extends to them His desire to find things of value in them that He can appreciate.

But the manifestation of that love to creatures is conditional. What that love does is largely conditional. The way God deals with each creature depends on the balance within the creature between traits that are intrinsically valuable in God's sight and the degree to which the creature is undermining that which God values in itself and others.

Scripture does not say anywhere that God's love is always unconditional. There may be some expressions of His valuing humanity that are universal and unconditional, like causing the same quality of sunshine to fall upon both the good person and the wicked person standing next to each other. But to extrapolate some particular samples into a universal rule is a logical fallacy called hasty generalisation.

 

[Kroogz]

Also, you obviously make no distinction between God's common grace (Mat 5:45)

It's called ...reconciliation.

Love, Justice, holiness, righteousness and sovereignty brought it to mankind....CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY.

Equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.

Is a courtroom fair and just? or can we pronounce guilt at will?

 

[PaulThomson]

Finally, while I see EVERYTHING coming from and through Christ to me (including God's precious love for me), at the same time I also know that God LOVES me personally because he doesn't see my OLD MAN any longer. He sees Christ in me! He sees Christ's imputed righteousness in me. He sees me as the New Man. In short, if it weren't for my Federal Head, God could never love me with a covenantal love.

If what you are saying is true, then God does not love you. He only loves whatever is of Christ in you. He only loves Himself, because the only one He sees as worthy of His love is Himself. That is not the God the Bible describes.

And I have yet to come across one that says explicitly that He loves sinners or evildoers or the wicked or fools.

1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[fn] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.[fn]
Eph 2:4 But[fn] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— Eph 2:6
and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

 

[Cameron143]

You obviously do not love your own children unconditionally, because you do not love all children with the same love as you have for your own children. You love children more if they are your own children. That is a conditional love.

God's love for creatures is the same kind of love for every creature descibed in 1 Cor, 13: agape. It is a love that treasures what is inherently valuable in those creatures. In that regard one could say that God extends His love towards all creatures unconditionally. No matter how good or evil a creature is God extends to them His desire to find things of value in them that He can appreciate.

But the manifestation of that love to creatures is conditional. What that love does is largely conditional. The way God deals with each creature depends on the balance within the creature between traits that are intrinsically valuable in God's sight and the degree to which the creature is undermining that which God values in itself and others.

Scripture does not say anywhere that God's love is always unconditional. There may be some expressions of His valuing humanity that are universal and unconditional, like causing the same quality of sunshine to fall upon both the good person and the wicked person standing next to each other. But to extrapolate some particular samples into a universal rule is a logical fallacy called hasty generalisation.

I don't know all children. I do love my children unconditionally.
I disagree that God loves on the basis of the value He sees in individuals. He tells us why He shows mercy...He has mercy upon whom He will. Nothing to do with any intrinsic value; merely God's sovereign choice.
Rain and sunshine are general manifestations of the love of God for creation as a whole. It has nothing to do with the love that God extends to those in Christ other than it is extended to them as well.

 

[PaulThomson]

What can't you understand about this:

Your format: MT 5:44

Some System accepted formats: Matt 5:44 Matt5:44 Mat5:44 Mat 5:44

Put your cursor over your verse reference and then over the System formats. See the difference?

Some people see themselves as teachers, and see teachers as lords that the pupils must accommodate, or go away. Biblically, teachers are servant-hearted and accommodate the needs of the students. They do what they can to make understanding easier for willing learners.

We shall see, relatively soon, which category our brother chooses to occupy.

 

[PaulThomson]

I don't know all children. I do love my children unconditionally.
I disagree that God loves on the basis of the value He sees in individuals. He tells us why He shows mercy...He has mercy upon whom He will. Nothing to do with any intrinsic value; merely God's sovereign choice.
Rain and sunshine are general manifestations of the love of God for creation as a whole. It has nothing to do with the love that God extends to those in Christ other than it is extended to them as well.

I recommend The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. He will help you understand just how readily we are able to invent arguments in support of out prejudices, and how much in our posts can be merely automatic irrational post hoc justifications driven by disgust at the assumed wickedness of alternative perspectives.

He is not a Christian, so his studies deal with those walking after the flesh, and He does not consider how walking after the Spirit may affect a person's behaviour. But we are all prone to slip into the flesh, especially in arguments over moralistic topics. So his observations often apply even to Christians. My wife and I are presently reading through it and discussing his ideas together.

You can find it available on line as a free pdf.

 

[PaulThomson]

I think you are purposefully twisting what @Cameron143 has said.

It seems you don't actually know what love entails or means. Especially when it comes to children.

I have three adult children of my own. But it is still possible that I do not know what loving one's own children is like.

 

[Cameron143]

I recommend The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. He will help you understand just how readily we are able to invent arguments in support of out prejudices, and how much in our posts can be merely automatic irrational post hoc justifications driven by disgust at the assumed wickedness of alternative perspectives.

He is not a Christian, so his studies deal with those walking after the flesh, and He does not consider how walking after the Spirit may affect a person's behaviour. But we are all prone to slip into the flesh, especially in arguments over moralistic topics. So his observations often apply even to Christians. My wife and I are presently reading through it and discussing his ideas together.

You can find it available on line as a free pdf.

No thanks. Appreciate the discussion.

 

[PaulThomson]

In Scripture we read, God's expressions of love are conditional; His love,which created all that exists, isn't.

Does God love Satan? Sure.

In The Book of Job we realize Satan can only go as far as God allows.

Good. so, we can see that among the posters here there is a wide range of beliefs about whether God's love is unconditional or not. So how does one arrive at a Biblical perspective on which i correct. I would suggest that considering what scripture actually says about what of God's love does is the way to go. Others seem to think that citing a translation of what God says, and then merely claiming those words harmonise with their own view, is the best approach.

 

[GWH]

What can't you understand about this:

Your format: MT 5:44

Some System accepted formats: Matt 5:44 Matt5:44 Mat5:44 Mat 5:44

Put your cursor over your verse reference and then over the System formats. See the difference?

Okay, here goes:

MT 5:44-45, But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

MT 5:48, Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

MT 22:37-40, Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

JN 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

RM 5:6-8, You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1TM 2:3-4, This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1JN 4:7-12, Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

I found the verses on Google, but I don't understand what "System formats" refers to.

 

[studier]

Okay, here goes:

MT 5:44-45, But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

MT 5:48, Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

MT 22:37-40, Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

JN 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

RM 5:6-8, You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1TM 2:3-4, This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1JN 4:7-12, Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

I found the verses on Google, but I don't understand what "System formats" refers to.

Look at the way you write verse references above = 1JN 4:7-12

Now look at this = 1John4:7-12.

Do you see a difference?

Put your cursor on each of these 2 verse references. Do you see anything happen when you put your cursor on this verse reference: 1John4:7-12 ???

Are you using a computer or another device?

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
conditional
adjective

1. that only happens if something else is done or happens first

My college admission is conditional on my getting good marks in the exams.

Opposite: unconditional

2. grammar
describing a situation that must exist before something else can happen. A conditional sentence often contains the word ‘if’

if you don’t study, you won’t pass the exam’ is a conditional sentence.

Yes. All responses to things or people are by definition conditional. Can you suggest a response to a thing or a person that is not conditional?

According to the definition of conditional, agape love is conditional. It only happens because something else happened. Agape love is a positive response to things that are valued by the subject, and a negative response to things that are being devalued by or in the object.

Does the Bible say somewhere that God's love is unconditional?

Okay, here goes:

MT 5:44-45, But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

MT 5:48, Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

MT 22:37-40, Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

JN 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

RM 5:6-8, You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1TM 2:3-4, This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1JN 4:7-12, Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

I found the verses on Google, but I don't understand what "System formats" refers to.

Your verses are supposed to be showing that God's love is unconditional. I asked,
"Does the Bible say somewhere that God's love is unconditional?"
And these verses are your alleged proof that it does.

MT 5:44-45, But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
God does some things universally/unconditionally. Does the fact that God does some things universally/unconditionally prove that God's love must always unconditional? No. Several examples of something being the case are not proof that that something is always the case. To assume so would be the logical fallacy of hasty generalisation.

MT 5:48, Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
This is an injunction be like God in doing good sometimes to those who do not deserve it. It is not an injunction to always do so, since God does not always do so..

MT 22:37-40, Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Since we do not always love ourselves unconditionally, this injunction to love my neighbour as myself cannot be an injunction to always love others unconditionally.

JN 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Since the gift of everlasting life is only to those who believe, it is conditional on believing. How does this example that God's love is always unconditional ?

RM 5:6-8, You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Does the fact that Christ died for the ungodly prove that God's love is always unconditional? The fallacy of hasty generalisation again.

1TM 2:3-4, This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Again, God's love universally desiring all to be saved does not prove that God's love is always unconditional.

1JN 4:7-12, Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
Treating others better than they deserve to be treated does not negate the idea of measuring out that undeserved blessing in response to certain prompts. All three of my children have been misbehaving, but I give then each an undeserved icecream. One gets three scoops because they were the least naughty, one gets two scoops, and the naughtiest gets one scoop. Are they each being equally unconditionally loved, or are they being graciously loved but conditionally ?

I don't think any of these prove God's love is by nature unconditional.

 

[DavidLamb]

PaulThomson said:
conditional
adjective

1. that only happens if something else is done or happens first

My college admission is conditional on my getting good marks in the exams.

Opposite: unconditional

2. grammar
describing a situation that must exist before something else can happen. A conditional sentence often contains the word ‘if’

if you don’t study, you won’t pass the exam’ is a conditional sentence.

Yes. All responses to things or people are by definition conditional. Can you suggest a response to a thing or a person that is not conditional?

According to the definition of conditional, agape love is conditional. It only happens because something else happened. Agape love is a positive response to things that are valued by the subject, and a negative response to things that are being devalued by or in the object.

Does the Bible say somewhere that God's love is unconditional?


Your verses are supposed to be showing that God's love is unconditional. I asked,
"Does the Bible say somewhere that God's love is unconditional?"
And these verses are your alleged proof that it does.

MT 5:44-45, But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
God does some things universally/unconditionally. Does the fact that God does some things universally/unconditionally prove that God's love must always unconditional? No. Several examples of something being the case are not proof that that something is always the case. To assume so would be the logical fallacy of hasty generalisation.

MT 5:48, Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
This is an injunction be like God in doing good sometimes to those who do not deserve it. It is not an injunction to always do so, since God does not always do so..

MT 22:37-40, Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Since we do not always love ourselves unconditionally, this injunction to love my neighbour as myself cannot be an injunction to always love others unconditionally.

JN 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Since the gift of everlasting life is only to those who believe, it is conditional on believing. How does this example that God's love is always unconditional ?

RM 5:6-8, You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Does the fact that Christ died for the ungodly prove that God's love is always unconditional? The fallacy of hasty generalisation again.

1TM 2:3-4, This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Again, God's love universally desiring all to be saved does not prove that God's love is always unconditional.

1JN 4:7-12, Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
Treating others better than they deserve to be treated does not negate the idea of measuring out that undeserved blessing in response to certain prompts. All three of my children have been misbehaving, but I give then each an undeserved icecream. One gets three scoops because they were the least naughty, one gets two scoops, and the naughtiest gets one scoop. Are they each being equally unconditionally loved, or are they being graciously loved but conditionally ?

I don't think any of these prove God's love is by nature unconditional.

How about this from Romans:

“But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” (Ro 5:8 NKJV)

 

[GWH]

Look at the way you write verse references above = 1JN 4:7-12

Now look at this = 1John4:7-12.

Do you see a difference?

Put your cursor on each of these 2 verse references. Do you see anything happen when you put your cursor on this verse reference: 1John4:7-12 ???

Are you using a computer or another device?

Yes, but I see no difference between 1JN 4:7-12 and 1John4:7-12 in this reply, so how do I make it turn blue?

 

[GWH]

PaulThomson said:
conditional
adjective

1. that only happens if something else is done or happens first

My college admission is conditional on my getting good marks in the exams.

Opposite: unconditional

2. grammar
describing a situation that must exist before something else can happen. A conditional sentence often contains the word ‘if’

if you don’t study, you won’t pass the exam’ is a conditional sentence.

Yes. All responses to things or people are by definition conditional. Can you suggest a response to a thing or a person that is not conditional?

According to the definition of conditional, agape love is conditional. It only happens because something else happened. Agape love is a positive response to things that are valued by the subject, and a negative response to things that are being devalued by or in the object.

Does the Bible say somewhere that God's love is unconditional?


Your verses are supposed to be showing that God's love is unconditional. I asked,
"Does the Bible say somewhere that God's love is unconditional?"
And these verses are your alleged proof that it does.

MT 5:44-45, But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
God does some things universally/unconditionally. Does the fact that God does some things universally/unconditionally prove that God's love must always unconditional? No. Several examples of something being the case are not proof that that something is always the case. To assume so would be the logical fallacy of hasty generalisation.

MT 5:48, Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
This is an injunction be like God in doing good sometimes to those who do not deserve it. It is not an injunction to always do so, since God does not always do so..

MT 22:37-40, Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Since we do not always love ourselves unconditionally, this injunction to love my neighbour as myself cannot be an injunction to always love others unconditionally.

JN 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Since the gift of everlasting life is only to those who believe, it is conditional on believing. How does this example that God's love is always unconditional ?

RM 5:6-8, You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Does the fact that Christ died for the ungodly prove that God's love is always unconditional? The fallacy of hasty generalisation again.

1TM 2:3-4, This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Again, God's love universally desiring all to be saved does not prove that God's love is always unconditional.

1JN 4:7-12, Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
Treating others better than they deserve to be treated does not negate the idea of measuring out that undeserved blessing in response to certain prompts. All three of my children have been misbehaving, but I give then each an undeserved icecream. One gets three scoops because they were the least naughty, one gets two scoops, and the naughtiest gets one scoop. Are they each being equally unconditionally loved, or are they being graciously loved but conditionally ?

I don't think any of these prove God's love is by nature unconditional.

In the realm of faith, one does not walk by proof, but these Scriptures obviously provide evidence that God's love is unconditional,
so why do you not share the same Spirit but instead kick against His goad? Apparently it is because you did not discern in JN 3:16 that although God's love is always unconditional, His salvation is eternally conditional upon saving belief/faith.

 

[studier]

Yes, but I see no difference between 1JN 4:7-12 and 1John4:7-12 in this reply, so how do I make it turn blue?

Refresh your screen = hit the circular arrow near the top left if on a PC. It's blue and working on my screen. Success. "A" for the day.

Now teach somebody some harmonized truth using your newly learned verse referencing skill.

 

[Jimbone]

Or...... Absolutley no context of election is about God arbitrarily choosing certain men for salvation.

And guess what else "teacher"? No body is making the argument that God does that. That is your own close minded, biggoted, looney toon version of what you've been told about a belief, with your own warped personal bias sprayed on top.

That is the biggest problem with talking to you and the CDSC (Calvinist Derangment Sysndrome Cult), you've made up this enemy in your own heads. Nobody makes the stupid arguements that you battle nonstop. No one. Your every argument elevates men and degrades God, even more than that your whole crews understanding of God the Spirit is not "lacking", it doesn't exist in anything you type. You never glorify God or point to Him at all, for anything. You do not concider His power or the transformation that happens when we are born again in ANY of your comments, arguments, theological beliefs, or anything else I've ever read from you or any of the others. You glory and take pride only in your choice and preceved superior understanding of scripture. You are all about you and your glory, we always point to God, we give the credit and glory to who it belongs to in truth, we give it ALL to Jesus. You simply don't.