Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

Who would those ten righteous people in Lot's household be? Since Lot and two of
his daughters were the only ones who ultimately escaped the destruction of Sodom.

They obviously didn't exist, but Abraham at one time lived very close with Lot, and had some idea about Lot's household. His concern in praying was for the household of Lot. I believe he prayed until he thought Lot would be spared.
As far as who in particular, I heard a preacher give a list of 10 possibilities from Lot's household that seemed plausible, but don't recall it any longer.

The alternative is to believe that Abraham didn't really care if Lot was saved or not; that laboring in prayer with God was not evidence of his love for Lot, and his great desire for him to be spared. You have loved one's you pray for in the same way. Do you pray that they might be saved, or that they indeed do become saved?

I can't prove from scripture that Abraham prayed as I have suggested, but I believe he did.

 

[PaulThomson]

He answered the words of his prayer, but not the spirit of the prayer. God had no intention of saving Sodom and Gomorrah.

Where do we read about "the spirit of Abraham's prayer" that you say God did not answer?

 

[PaulThomson]

Abraham's prayer was for Sodom to be spared, but his intention was that Lot and his household be spared. God did largely spare Lot's family, but He did not spare Sodom. There is much to learn about prayer and attempting to manipulate God through prayer, but it was not God's will to spare Sodom. Had Abraham continued to pray until he asked would God spare Sodom for the sake of 1 righteous person, he would have found this out. Abraham believed, after praying, that Sodom would be spared. He thought that 10 righteous people existed in Lot's household.

All this is clearly explained in the 67 book of the Bible: the Book of Cameron.

 

[Cameron143]

Where do we read about "the spirit of Abraham's prayer" that you say God did not answer?

What do you believe was Abraham's purpose in praying was?

I believe it's implied in the text. I'll show you why if you answer my questions.

 

[Cameron143]

All this is clearly explained in the 67 book of the Bible: the Book of Cameron.

Did God send Abraham to Sodom to warn Sodom to repent? Is that why the angels were sent?

 

[PaulThomson]

Did God send Abraham to Sodom to warn Sodom to repent? Is that why the angels were sent?

Maybe Lot had been preaching to them for years.

 

[Rufus]

No, I don't overlook what you allege. Just like I haven't said some of the things you allege. At this point it's just a side excursion to your thread to repeat some Truth I know you disagree with and watch you repeat your same arguments. We're all basically talking to brick walls on this thread, not unlike other ones, but this one may be the worst. I have seen a few times how you mention me in some obscure way, and I know it's because you miss me, so I say something here or there just to let you know I still love you, But I must tell you that cats are not my favorite pets. I picture you as naming them all "Elect" kind of like George Foreman named all his sons George.

The only brick walls on this thread are the hearts of those who reject God's truth by adding their own personal version of truth to it! Many on this thread are willing victims of sin's deceitfulness. And when someone is deceived by sin, they themselves become self-deceived. The very worst effect that sin has in people's hearts is that the blind cannot see their own blindness because their hearts are proud and arrogant. It's no wonder at all that Jesus told the Pharisees, "If you were blind you would not be guilty of sin, but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains" (Jn 9:41). The deception in their own hearts prevented them from acknowledging their own blindness! And if one is not blind, then who needs Jesus' healing!?

And what I just said isn't even half the story! Sin has deceived many here into believing that man's volition is the ticket to seizing God's opportunity for salvation. FWers seem to think that man's volition is immune to sin's effects -- that man's will is free as a jaybird to make whatever moral/spiritual decisions it wants. Yet, the volition is not autonomous or disassociated from the other three faculties, which is why scripture speaks so often about the woeful, pitiful, shameful and damning condition of man's depraved HEART. For it is the heart that is the center of a person. The heart of man defines him! The heart, which is the seat of all man's faculties, is what drives and steers a person's choices, thoughts, words and deeds. But again...the evil one has been very successful in deceiving the Church into believing that salvation is merely a matter making the right choice, and that the human will is the one and only effectual, enabling mechanism that triggers God to respond with his salvation. Yet, the big emphasis in scripture is not the efficacy of fallen man's volition but on the depravity of the human heart which makes it necessary for God to promise a new heart AND new spirit under the New Covenant whereby the hardness of the old heart will be removed and a soft, pliable, sensitive heart of flesh will be implanted into God's covenant people (Ezek 36:26)! And not only that...but God will cause or move (or if you're FWer: FORCE or COERCE) his people to keep his decrees and laws (Ezek 36:27; Jer 31:33). Human volition is very obviously not autonomous as FWT implies. The DESIRES of one's heart are informed by our mind, will, emotions and conscience -- all of which are seated in the heart.

Prov 4:23
23 Keep your heart with all vigilance,
for from it flow the springs of life.
ESV

 

[Rufus]

So, are you one of the few chosen? How do you know?

1Jo 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These Scriptures speak of the proof of who is chosen, not by the manner. We know who is chosen by the right results, not by some mysterious unknown manner of choosing.

The Scripture is not about before being chosen, but about afterward.

Before His choosing, all men have sinned and are not His people. After his choosing, all His people are conformed to His Son's image in good faith and works.

The teaching ought be about how we know who is chosen of the Lord, not about how He chooses.

Hah...a fresh, new voice! Welcome aboard! Your post is spot-on!

 

[Cameron143]

Maybe Lot had been preaching to them for years.

I believe he did. Obviously to no avail.

You still haven't answered the question: who was Abraham praying for?

 

[Rufus]

Maybe Lot had been preaching to them for years.

Then again...maybe NOT! So...let's just wildly speculate, right, and put our speculations on the same authoritative level as divine revelation?

 

[Magenta]

Prov 4:23
23 Keep your heart with all vigilance,
for from it flow the springs of life.
ESV

Proverbs 4 verses 20-23 ~ My son, pay attention to my words; incline your ear to my sayings. Do not lose sight of them; keep them within your heart. For they are life to those who find them, and health to the whole body. Guard your heart with all diligence, for from it flow springs of life.

 

[studier]

The only brick walls on this thread are the hearts of those who reject God's truth by adding their own personal version of truth to it!

We know and we're praying for your delivery from such practices.

 

[Rufus]

We know and we're praying for your delivery from such practices.

I have long ago been SET FREE by Christ when God rescued me from the kingdom of darkness. But what is the excuse for all you lovers of FWT?

 

[Magenta]

Romans 7 verses 18-24a ~ I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[Magenta]

I have long ago been SET FREE by Christ when God rescued me from the kingdom of darkness. But what is the excuse for all you lovers of FWT?

Their excuse is, something good lives in their flesh... the bad ground of their incurably wicked heart heart can produce good fruit.

Despite all the evidence given in Scripture to the contrary, including in the very words of Jesus Christ Himself...

 

[Rufus]

Their excuse is, something good lives in their flesh... the bad ground of their incurably wicked heart heart can produce good fruit.

Despite all the evidence given in Scripture to the contrary, including in the very words of Jesus Christ Himself...

And that "something" is their autonomous volition which was never affected by Adam's sin or their own personal sins. Man's efficacious volition is their superhero!

 

[Magenta]

And that "something" is their autonomous volition which was never affected by
Adam's sin or their own personal sins. Man's efficacious volition is their superhero!

John 3 verses 19-20 and from Psalm 10 verse 4 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. The wicked reviles the Lord

 

[studier]

I have long ago been SET FREE by Christ when God rescued me from the kingdom of darkness. But what is the excuse for all you lovers of FWT?

Me too! We freely love God!!!

 

[Magenta]

Me too! We freely love God!!!

Not with the heart you were born with...

Ephesians 4 verses 17-18; Luke 6 verse 43; Jeremiah 10 verse 14 In the futility of their thinking, unbelievers are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. A diseased tree cannot bear good fruit. Every man is senseless and devoid of knowledge.

 

[Magenta]

Jeremiah 17 verse 9 plus John 3 verses 19-20 ~ The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? This is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil.