Understanding God’s election
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Eh? What I said was, All flesh has this breath of life. You contested it, and asked for verses showing that animals
have the breath of life. You cannot explain them away as you have tried. All animals have the breath of life.
For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed,
they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. Ecclesiastes 3:19
have the breath of life. You cannot explain them away as you have tried. All animals have the breath of life.
For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed,
they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. Ecclesiastes 3:19
And what does that have to do with Adam's spiritual state before he sinned? Was Adam spiritually alive or dead prior to his fall? If Adam were the latter, then he had not much advantage over any of us who also come into this world as spiritual stillborns. Or...do you think Adam came into this world in a morally neutral state -- neither dead or alive? But even then....he couldn't have died spiritually after he sinned because death always presupposes antecedent life. Only the living can die.
Many of us here really should pay better attention to the metaphors in scripture. So many of us handle the metaphors and similes in scripture in a careless, slip-shod manner.
Many of us here really should pay better attention to the metaphors in scripture. So many of us handle the metaphors and similes in scripture in a careless, slip-shod manner.
Yes, all animals have the breath of life; but show me in scripture where God breathed that life into them and those animals became living souls!
And what Solomon is talking about in the above passage is physical death. Both the sons of men and the animals all face the same destiny: Physical Death! But...we're not talking physical death in the case of Adam. You and I both came into this world with the "breath of life" in us -- but we were still DEAD spiritually at the time of birth. All the unregenerate sinners in this world came into it with the "breath of life" in them, but they are DEAD in their trespasses and sins. And if the die physically in that spiritual state, then they will suffer the second death.
So...let me ask you this question for clarification: Do you believe that Adam died spiritually on the day he disobeyed?
And what Solomon is talking about in the above passage is physical death. Both the sons of men and the animals all face the same destiny: Physical Death! But...we're not talking physical death in the case of Adam. You and I both came into this world with the "breath of life" in us -- but we were still DEAD spiritually at the time of birth. All the unregenerate sinners in this world came into it with the "breath of life" in them, but they are DEAD in their trespasses and sins. And if the die physically in that spiritual state, then they will suffer the second death.
So...let me ask you this question for clarification: Do you believe that Adam died spiritually on the day he disobeyed?
Very confusing when someone bases his premise on a mainstream translation into English.
Nephesh in Genesis One meant soul life.
Animals were given souls.
Man also has a soul.
But, they were not the same kind of soul.
For man's soul was uniquely created in God's image, and animals were not.
What was created in God's image is the human soul. Not the body.
The human body is a phenomenal biological vehicle that God designed for a human soul to move about with while living in the material world.
Nephesh in Genesis One meant soul life.
Animals were given souls.
Man also has a soul.
But, they were not the same kind of soul.
For man's soul was uniquely created in God's image, and animals were not.
What was created in God's image is the human soul. Not the body.
The human body is a phenomenal biological vehicle that God designed for a human soul to move about with while living in the material world.
There are 2 parts to man...that which is material and that which is immaterial. When sin occurred, spiritual death, physical death, and eternal death should have immediately ensued. Instead, God immediately entered into a covenant of grace with Adam and Eve. A promise was given, a vow was made, and a sign was given.
When God placed His image in man, this allowed man to relate to God. When sin entered, the image of God in man was marred and corrupted. Man could no longer relate to God intimately. This is the spiritual death that was wrought through Adam. Man can still know of God's existence through nature and Providence, as well as through conscience, but he is no longer able to relate to God intimately as before. Sin has separated man from God. As a part of the common grace, man is allowed to continue to live, reproduce, and work.
So I don't believe man was born spiritually dead.
When God placed His image in man, this allowed man to relate to God. When sin entered, the image of God in man was marred and corrupted. Man could no longer relate to God intimately. This is the spiritual death that was wrought through Adam. Man can still know of God's existence through nature and Providence, as well as through conscience, but he is no longer able to relate to God intimately as before. Sin has separated man from God. As a part of the common grace, man is allowed to continue to live, reproduce, and work.
So I don't believe man was born spiritually dead.
Yes... All animals have a soul.
Man also has a soul.
But, the difference?
Man's soul was created in the image of God.
Animal souls were created generic in nature.
That is why God was able to give us animals for food.
Man's soul was created in Chapter One before the body came into existence in the second chapter of Genesis.
........
Man also has a soul.
But, the difference?
Man's soul was created in the image of God.
Animal souls were created generic in nature.
That is why God was able to give us animals for food.
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,
so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky,
over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures
that move along the ground.”
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them." Genesis 1:26-27
Man's soul was created in Chapter One before the body came into existence in the second chapter of Genesis.
........
The third option is Adam was created with flesh and blood.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life.
We also know that Adam would need to changed from the flesh to the Spirit, to enter heaven.
Even though Adam had not yet encountered death, Adam also had not eaten from the tree of life.
So we cannot explain the state that Adam was in, before he ate of the tree of knowledge.
The text provides no information regarding this issue.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life.
We also know that Adam would need to changed from the flesh to the Spirit, to enter heaven.
Even though Adam had not yet encountered death, Adam also had not eaten from the tree of life.
So we cannot explain the state that Adam was in, before he ate of the tree of knowledge.
The text provides no information regarding this issue.
And that is not said of any other person in scripture since all creation ceased on the 6th day. The creation of Adam was a one-time, unique event. By Adam becoming a living soul, this meant his soul was spiritually alive unto God, which very much differs from our situation since we came into this world with dead souls! God did not create a spiritually dead person -- a person who was separated from the life of God. God hates death as much as we do. Death is antithetical to the very essence of God, which is LIFE, since the eternal God is pure existence. Death (in both its forms) is the punishment for sin! If Adam was created spiritually dead, that would have been unjust of God given what He promised Adam in Gen 2:17. Did God lie? If you say, he didn't, then that logically and biblically leaves you with a spiritually alive Adam at creation. And we know from scripture that the Holy Spirit is Life and gives life (Jn 6:63; 2Cor 3:6). And also know that Jesus, through whom God created all things, gives life to whom he is pleased (Jn 5:21), and he even breathed the Spirit of Life unto his disciples (Jn 20:22) -- a similar act that he performed on Adam.
Further, I would submit to you that Adam's possession of the Spirit of Life also made his sin most egregious. Adam, as God's appointed federal head of the human race, had every advantage when he came into this world that none of his progeny ever since have ever enjoyed. We all come into this world spiritually dead -- our dead souls separated from the life of God. But not so with Adam! This is why God's appointment of Adam as the representative of the human race was eminently fair and just. Adam enjoyed many advantages that none of us did when we came into this world.
I also submit this idea: If Adam had not sinned -- if he had passed the test -- he would have lived forever. Neither he or Eve would have had to eat any fruit from the "tree of life". I don't believe we should take the "tree of life' of literally. Yes, the tree existed but for symbolic purposes. Just like there was no magic in the fruit of the tree of knowledge that opened their eyes to sin, likewise there was no magic in the fruit of the tree of life. What gave A&E the knowledge of good and evil was their disobedience to God, not the fruit itself. The fruit did not give them a guilty conscience or instill fear in them; their lack of trust in God and their subsequent disobedience did.
One final reminder again: Only the living can die. And only the dead can be brought back to life. And how were we made alive in Christ when we were dead, if not by the indwelling Holy Spirit graciously gifted to us by God?
Here's another maxim we all can take to the bank: There is no life apart from the Eternal Source of Life. If Adam was created with spiritual life within his soul, this can only mean he was intimately connected to the Life of God through the Holy Spirit at his creation, just as God's elect today are at our new creation (cf. Ezekiel 37).
Further, I would submit to you that Adam's possession of the Spirit of Life also made his sin most egregious. Adam, as God's appointed federal head of the human race, had every advantage when he came into this world that none of his progeny ever since have ever enjoyed. We all come into this world spiritually dead -- our dead souls separated from the life of God. But not so with Adam! This is why God's appointment of Adam as the representative of the human race was eminently fair and just. Adam enjoyed many advantages that none of us did when we came into this world.
I also submit this idea: If Adam had not sinned -- if he had passed the test -- he would have lived forever. Neither he or Eve would have had to eat any fruit from the "tree of life". I don't believe we should take the "tree of life' of literally. Yes, the tree existed but for symbolic purposes. Just like there was no magic in the fruit of the tree of knowledge that opened their eyes to sin, likewise there was no magic in the fruit of the tree of life. What gave A&E the knowledge of good and evil was their disobedience to God, not the fruit itself. The fruit did not give them a guilty conscience or instill fear in them; their lack of trust in God and their subsequent disobedience did.
One final reminder again: Only the living can die. And only the dead can be brought back to life. And how were we made alive in Christ when we were dead, if not by the indwelling Holy Spirit graciously gifted to us by God?
Here's another maxim we all can take to the bank: There is no life apart from the Eternal Source of Life. If Adam was created with spiritual life within his soul, this can only mean he was intimately connected to the Life of God through the Holy Spirit at his creation, just as God's elect today are at our new creation (cf. Ezekiel 37).
So was the Last Adam created with flesh and blood, so what is your point?
Also, what makes you think that A& E would have gone to heaven if they had passed God's test? God clearly intended to dwell with the human race on this EARTH forever -- which is precisely what will happen when Jesus returns. Heaven is a mere "pit stop" for all the elect. At the Parousia, Christ will create the New Earth wherein God and His Christ will dwell with man forever, which will be our eternal destination.
And, yes, scripture tells us what the spiritual state of Adam was at creation: He was a LIVING soul as opposed to how we all came into this world as DEAD souls to God.
It appears you don't believe Adam died spirituazlly on the day he disobeyed?
Also, what makes you think that A& E would have gone to heaven if they had passed God's test? God clearly intended to dwell with the human race on this EARTH forever -- which is precisely what will happen when Jesus returns. Heaven is a mere "pit stop" for all the elect. At the Parousia, Christ will create the New Earth wherein God and His Christ will dwell with man forever, which will be our eternal destination.
And, yes, scripture tells us what the spiritual state of Adam was at creation: He was a LIVING soul as opposed to how we all came into this world as DEAD souls to God.
It appears you don't believe Adam died spirituazlly on the day he disobeyed?
Which was never God's intention originally, nor will any animals be eaten on the New Earth. In fact, permission to eat animals wasn't given to mankind until after the Flood.
Regarding your last sentence, that is incorrect. Chapter One of Genesis is the flyover, birds-eye large view of the entire creation; whereas chapter 2 simply switches its focus to God's image-bearers. There are not two different creation accounts. There's only one but the emphasis and focus change between chapters one and two. And this is a typical style of writing for Moses, as he often recapitulated things.
Regarding your last sentence, that is incorrect. Chapter One of Genesis is the flyover, birds-eye large view of the entire creation; whereas chapter 2 simply switches its focus to God's image-bearers. There are not two different creation accounts. There's only one but the emphasis and focus change between chapters one and two. And this is a typical style of writing for Moses, as he often recapitulated things.
And I answered and explained that to you. And don't forget that Solomon is writing post-fall! So...yes...man and nostril-breathing animals all have souls that animate the body and give life to it. Even man's dead souls, which which we all come into this world, gives life to our bodies -- but those souls are still spiritually dead. But this was not the case with Adam. Adam was not created with a dead soul!
You can learn these things if you are willing to.
The Hebrew in regard to the creation of man in God's Image is revealing a certain action by God, that was totally different to when the body came into being.
But, you have to be willing to learn. Not ready to discount anything that stands in the way of your preconceived dogmatic stand.,
The Hebrew in regard to the creation of man in God's Image is revealing a certain action by God, that was totally different to when the body came into being.
But, you have to be willing to learn. Not ready to discount anything that stands in the way of your preconceived dogmatic stand.,