Understanding God’s election

[John146]

No dance. Context is kinda important for right understanding of scripture. For example, in 1Jn 2:2 the apostle clearly puts the [GENTILE] world on equal footing with the Jews in terms of Christ's atoning work. Christ was the propitiation of John's sins and the sins of his original believing Jewish audience along with Gentile believers throughout the world. If Christ actually atoned for the sins of unbelievers, then all the world would be saved.

For your info, if you do a deep dive into the Gr. term "kosmos" (world), you'll find that it can have at least 8 or 9 different shadings of meanings.

The context of 1 John 2 is found within the text. John warns to stay away from the world...the same world that Christ died for...

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

 

[Rufus]

Paul used 1 example in Pharaoh and even added that Pharaoh first hardened his heart before God permanently hardened it.

1 example and you made a complete doctrine over 1 example.

Seems kinda strange to make a doctrine over 1 example.

You have chapter and verse to prove that empty claim of yours!? See my 12,725 whereby I thoroughly refute your false claim! Pharaoh hardened his own heart WILLINGLY because God decreed it! Besides, have you never read what Prov 21:1 teaches? Pharaoh is the quintessential example of the truth taught therein!

 

[Magenta]

Your first paragraph is correct. Adam did indeed have free will unencumbered by the effect of sin.
The second paragraph is incorrect and nowhere to be found in the text of scripture. What is found
is that sin affected Adam even before God spoke with Adam...he hid and covered himself in shame
and fear. Not exactly the noble Adam you put forth.

Scripture nowhere says Adam was perfect. He was proclaimed good. We are perfected in Christ.

 

[GWH]

Man's fallen nature is already contrary to God. This is why a change of heart is necessary to begin with. And I do believe God is just in bringing judgment upon the unrepentant, just as He is just to forgive sinners who confess their sins.

God is only just to punish the unrepentant if they had the opportunity to repent.
I think your children will understand this principle.

 

[Rufus]

Your first paragraph is correct. Adam did indeed have free will unencumbered by the effect of sin. The second paragraph is incorrect and nowhere to be found in the text of scripture. What is found is that sin affected Adam even before God spoke with Adam...he hid and covered himself in shame and fear. Not exactly the noble Adam you put forth.

CV5 portrays Adam as the superhero in the Fall. Poor A&E were mere victims of the Serpent, don't you know? CV5 likely thinks A&E were both kool to deny culpability! Obviously, God did not see the Fall in the same way as he does.

 

[Rufus]

God is only just to punish the unrepentant if they had the opportunity to repent.
I think your children will understand this principle.

So, what happens to infants, babies, toddlers, young children who die prematurely and were never given the "opportunity to repent"?

 

[Cameron143]

Yep always grace and surely peace your way brother.

How are your family members doing?

 

[Cameron143]

God is only just to punish the unrepentant if they had the opportunity to repent.
I think your children will understand this principle.

Do you have scripture to support this?

 

[BillyBob]

Moral agents. Everyone?

Arent we all dead in our trespasses and sins before the Holy Spirit changes us?

Did you believe "Thou shall not kill" prior to the HS work in you? Just asking.............

 

[BillyBob]

Scripture nowhere says Adam was perfect. He was proclaimed good. We are perfected in Christ.

Adam had the ability to choose either good or evil. That ability is lost in the fall. We can only do evil, and are in need of a savior.

 

[Rufus]

Rufus got the moves.

Arthur Murray Dance Studious did wonders to up my game...

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

Did you believe "Thou shall not kill" prior to the HS work in you? Just asking.............

Thou shalt not murder.

Yes,I knew it was wrong. I've attended church since I was 3 yo.

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

You're confusing two different issues! Rom 2:14-15 doesn't teach us anything about God changing those who have the works of the law written upon their hearts. There's no transforming power in that universal work. It's singular purpose is make all mankind aware of what is right and wrong. If there was any transforming power, there wouldn't be any reason for God to promise under the New Covenant to effectually write his laws upon the hearts of his covenant people (Jer 31:33).

I think your post is confused. Maybe reread it and post again?

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

These people did not TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will. Simple as that.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The KJV translates Strong's G1209 in the following manner: receive (52x), take (4x), accept (2x), take up (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up

********************************************************************************************

Whereas these people DID TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will.

1Co 2:12
Now we have received, G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


The KJV translates Strong's G2983 in the following manner: receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x), caught (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take
   1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self

My post you quoted didn't warrant that reply. I never said people choose.

 

[Rufus]

The context of 1 John 2 is found within the text. John warns to stay away from the world...the same world that Christ died for...

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Thanks for proving my premise that the term "world" is used in various ways in scripture. He's telling Jewish believers in v. 15 to not love the world because they are not OF this world -- but they are IN it! Also, read John 17 someday to learn about the "world" from Jesus' lips. But this doesn't change the truth in v.2 that Christ atoned for the sins of the [Gentile] world in the identical way he atoned for the sins of John's Jewish audience. So...either each and every Gentile in the world w/o exception is saved...OR the "world" in this verse is used in the spiritual sense to denote Gentile believers who are certainly scattered all throughout the world.

 

[Rufus]

I think your post is confused. Maybe reread it and post again?

Okay...simple you'll get! It was not God's purpose to write the works of his law into every man's heart to fundamentally transform mankind. Rather, his purpose was to inform all mankind (especially the conscience), by the those works of the law, what is right and what is wrong.

 

[lrs68]

You have chapter and verse to prove that empty claim of yours!? See my 12,725 whereby I thoroughly refute your false claim! Pharaoh hardened his own heart WILLINGLY because God decreed it! Besides, have you never read what Prov 21:1 teaches? Pharaoh is the quintessential example of the truth taught therein!

You know chapter and verse in Romans because you have used the potter\clay card so many times the deck of cards are all worn out.

Bottom line is the Reformed made a Doctrine from one single example in the Bible and the blinded jumped on board without using any of the reasoning skills God blessed us with.

It's quite hilarious actually.

Wished I knew of a pyramid scam because those are the exact types of people I need to get rich 🤑

 

[GWH]

So, what happens to infants, babies, toddlers, young children who die prematurely and were never given the "opportunity to repent"?

They never had the opportunity to sin either, so repentance is not needed,
although the Bible only talks in terms of salvation for normal sinful adults.

 

[Rufus]

You know chapter and verse in Romans because you have used the potter\clay card so many times the deck of cards are all worn out.

Bottom line is the Reformed made a Doctrine from one single example in the Bible and the blinded jumped on board without using any of the reasoning skills God blessed us with.

It's quite hilarious actually.

Wished I knew of a pyramid scam because those are the exact types of people I need to get rich 🤑

You must be reading the satanic version of Rom 9 because the chapter says nothing about Pharaoh hardening his own heart. But Pharaoh doing that was thoroughly addressed in my 12,725. In that post, I proved from scripture that God's hardening decree long preceded Pharaoh's actiions and that Pharaoh willingly complied with God's decree by hardening his own heart. Again, what part of Prov 21:1, CAN'T you understand?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I don't blame Satan for our corruption. We are all accountable for our actions.

Yeah I meant God blames Satan for our corruption and us for our actions I’m sorry I wasn’t meaning you bro . I was meaning this

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

( he corrupted her thinking about the tree of knowledge of good and evil so she now perceives it differently )

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, ( she just repeated that God said it’s certain death but now she’s seeing it like Satan said good for food her thinking is now corrupt from the false doctrine aboit the fruit )

and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise,

( her new idea about the fruit leads then to partake of it knowing fully what God said about it but also hearing what the devil said about it they begin to see it his way and eat that which God said is certain death )

she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

………And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this,

( this shows us God hasn’t caused this he would take responsability and say I’ve done this he wouldn’t curse the serpent and say this is because of what you did )

thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

( but he also holds the people responsible for thier part in the matter )

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow ( this is because of what she did it’s a result of what they did not Gods will but satans Will who deceived them )

and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:

( the law of Moses is structured off this foundation of the first commandment thou shalt not or ye shall surely be put to death )

cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

……..So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-6, 14, 16-17, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this isn’t Gods Will for mankind to be deceived by Satan and die that’s why he told them “ don’t do it you’ll surely die “ but my point is he holds the devil and his angels accountable for what they did and do in corrupting and deceiving man

“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He. Also hold man accountable for thier actions according to the gospel and and true brotherly love expressed in actions and truth

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for ( because ) I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41-43, 45-46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s all I was meaning brother im sorry how I worded that it wasn’t about you . I know a little bit of what you believe and we agree on Jesus and what he did for us . We also have points we disagree on as well but I’ve accepted you as a bro a long time ago when we agreed on Jesus and the core foundational things. Anything else of what you believe or not or any judgement of your relationship with Jesus is between you and the big guy . It’s sincerely always nice , agree or not to communicate a bit with you . You’ve never had a disrespectful or Ill intentioned spirit towards most anyone that I’ve seen and that’s always an admirable quality.

I was just getting at God holds Satan responsible for leading mankind astray and corrupting our minds and hearts ,

then he also holds us corrupted folks accountable for our actions

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭

even though he blames Satan for leading us astray and corrupting us he also is going to hold man accountable for what we do whether good or evil

“God Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but in Christ he’s made a atonement so that if we acknolwedge our sins and repent well Be forgiven by the judge who suffered and died for our sins and told us to repent and follow him and live forever ….but we need to accept his judgements and walk in them

Things like this

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:

condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;

that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he holds everyone accountable just for thier own actions against him even satam and fallen angels and men and women ect that’s all I meant