Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Negative Rufus, not in Romans.

Once again, think nations not individuals.

Romans 10:19
But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation, By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”

The text specifies nations, Israel and the Gentile (nations).

But don't nations consist of individuals? Are you suggesting that God doesn't save individuals but only saves entire nations, as in each and every person in each and every nation? Who are all these saved nations, pray tell!? Do you have a list of them? Does the bible tell us who these elect, saved nations are? And if every person in every nation isn't saved, then how many people must be saved before we consider a nation to have been elected by God -- or for a nation to be in a covenant relationship with God?

And Paul is dealing specifically with five (5) individuals in Rom 9 in order to make his argument. Those five individuals were all sovereignly acted upon by God: Two of Abraham's descendants were acted upon redemptively; the other two were not, for they were elected unto reprobation, as was Pharaoh.

 

[GWH]

But don't nations consist of individuals? Are you suggesting that God doesn't save individuals but only saves entire nations, as in each and every person in each and every nation? Who are all these saved nations, pray tell!? Do you have a list of them? Does the bible tell us who these elect, saved nations are? And if every person in every nation isn't saved, then how many people must be saved before we consider a nation to have been elected by God -- or for a nation to be in a covenant relationship with God?

And Paul is dealing specifically with five (5) individuals in Rom 9 in order to make his argument. Those five individuals were all sovereignly acted upon by God: Two of Abraham's descendants were acted upon redemptively; the other two were not, for they were elected unto reprobation, as was Pharaoh.

DOE #34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or salvation/election (s/e).

35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.

36. Romans 10:18 cites Psalm 19:4, which hints that God’s s/e has been possible for everyone in the world. This implication may also be seen in Gal. 3:8, Col. 1:23 and Tit. 2:11 as well as Rom. 1:20.

37. Romans 11:5-7a refers to an elect “remnant chosen by grace”, which indicates that sinners may cooperate with God’s calling to be s/e “or not” (#35).

38. Romans 11:7b-8 needs to be understood in the context of pharaoh (#32), whose heart God allowed to be hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor” echoes what Paul said in Romans 1:24 & 28, that God gave fools over to perversion and a depraved mind.

32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).

 

[Rufus]

DOE #34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or salvation/election (s/e).

35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.

36. Romans 10:18 cites Psalm 19:4, which hints that God’s s/e has been possible for everyone in the world. This implication may also be seen in Gal. 3:8, Col. 1:23 and Tit. 2:11 as well as Rom. 1:20.

37. Romans 11:5-7a refers to an elect “remnant chosen by grace”, which indicates that sinners may cooperate with God’s calling to be s/e “or not” (#35).

38. Romans 11:7b-8 needs to be understood in the context of pharaoh (#32), whose heart God allowed to be hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor” echoes what Paul said in Romans 1:24 & 28, that God gave fools over to perversion and a depraved mind.

32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).

Why don't you answer the questions I raised in my 14,941? I'm dying to know which nations in the world consist of God's 'secret elect" chosen, covenant peoples.

 

[Rufus]

DOE #34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or salvation/election (s/e).

35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.

36. Romans 10:18 cites Psalm 19:4, which hints that God’s s/e has been possible for everyone in the world. This implication may also be seen in Gal. 3:8, Col. 1:23 and Tit. 2:11 as well as Rom. 1:20.

37. Romans 11:5-7a refers to an elect “remnant chosen by grace”, which indicates that sinners may cooperate with God’s calling to be s/e “or not” (#35).

38. Romans 11:7b-8 needs to be understood in the context of pharaoh (#32), whose heart God allowed to be hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor” echoes what Paul said in Romans 1:24 & 28, that God gave fools over to perversion and a depraved mind.

32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).

God didn't "allow" anything. God himself hardened Pharaoh's heart by his own decree! Learn how to read.

 

[GWH]

God didn't "allow" anything. God himself hardened Pharaoh's heart by his own decree! Learn how to read.

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

Learn GW and apply it to Pharaoh and yourself.

 

[Rufus]

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

Learn GW and apply it to Pharaoh and yourself.

Oh...you want to "apply" God's Word to Pharaoh, do you? Then apply these passages which I'll quote in chronological order and see if you're capable of connecting the dots:

Gen 15:12-16
12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the LORD said to him, "KNOW for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure."
NIV

And then this:

Ex 3:18-20
18 "The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.' 19 But I KNOW that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand COMPELS him. 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go.
NIV

And finally:

Ex 4:21-23
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'"
NIV

How did God know for certain in the first passage above that Israel would be enslaved and oppressed by the Egyptians? You FWers will say, "Well, that's easy! God's foreknowledge! God gazed into his cosmic crystal ball and saw what will happen. Is that how all prophecy is fulfilled? Or is prophecy fulfilled by divine prerogative, i.e. divine decree?

Same kind of question for the second passage. How did God know that Pharaoh would not let God's covenant people go. More crystal gazing? Yet, the passage says that Pharaoh will let the people go AFTER God FORCES Pharaoh's hand. God was clearly playing a very active role in his rescue operation of the ancient Hebrews. It doesn't sound as though God was just passively watching human history unfold.

And more solid proof of this is in the last passage. How God KNEW that Pharaoh would not let His people go was not by mere crystal ball gazing, but rather by divine prerogative, i.e. His eternal decree! God's prophecies above came to past because God himself would proactively harden Pharaoh's heart, thereby also demonstrating the profound truth taught in Prov 21:1!