Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

[CS1]

No need to try again. A bunch of anecdotes do not make a theory.


I don`t trust you and your knowledge. Causes dissonance in my worldview.
Yes, I do not understand the godhead, but I suspect neither do you. I have no credentials, so I depend only on the Scriptures. Knowing something that is unknowable is certainly a mystery of the babylonian kind.


It is written that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son and was with God at the beginning. That is all I know or claim to know. Saying Jesus is that and Jesus is this, which cannot be verified nor falsified, is called opinion. Asking for faith beyond the Apostle`s creed is called cult.

Jesus is God 100% and man 100% If He is the Son of God then HE is God because the Son of God is Eternal as the Father is.

IF You have seen me you have seen( past tense) My Father.

John 14:9

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time, and you do not know Me yet, Philip, nor recognize clearly who I am? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’

I also think that one who cries " Don't judge me" then refers to others as being in a cult is well below the belt. But it does speak volumes to your understanding. I thank you for your opinion and will place you on ignore to prevent me from saying to you things that you think are judgment.

 

[TheLearner]

Is the word "Israel" in the Hebrew of Isaiah 45:11; or does it use a possessive pronoun as is rendered by the kjv?

To @TheLearner.

I could not find my Hebrew Bible. My loaned it to our Pastor. So, here is basic break down.

Isaiah 45:11 ►
Text Analysis
Go to Parallel Hebrew
Strong's Hebrew English Morphology
3541 [e] כֹּֽה־
kōh- thus Adv
559 [e] אָמַ֧ר
’ā-mar says V-Qal-Perf-3ms
3068 [e] יְהוָ֛ה
Yah-weh Yahweh N-proper-ms
6918 [e] קְד֥וֹשׁ
qə-ḏō-wōš the Holy one Adj-msc
3478 [e] יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל
yiś-rā-’êl of Israel N-proper-ms
3335 [e] וְיֹצְר֑וֹ
wə-yō-ṣə-rōw; and his Maker Conj-w | V-Qal-Prtcpl-msc | 3ms
857 [e] הָאֹתִיּ֣וֹת
hā-’ō-ṯî-yō-wṯ of things to come Art | V-Qal-Prtcpl-fp
7592 [e] שְׁאָל֔וּנִי
šə-’ā-lū-nî, Ask Me V-Qal-Imp-mp | 1cs
5921 [e] עַל־
‘al- concerning Prep
1121 [e] בָּנַ֛י
bā-nay My sons N-mpc | 1cs
5921 [e] וְעַל־
wə-‘al- and concerning Conj-w | Prep
6467 [e] פֹּ֥עַל
pō-‘al the work N-msc
3027 [e] יָדַ֖י
yā-ḏay of My hands N-fdc | 1cs
6680 [e] תְּצַוֻּֽנִי׃
tə-ṣaw-wu-nî. you command Me V-Piel-Imperf-2mp | 1cs
https://biblehub.com/text/isaiah/45-11.htm

 

[TheLearner]

More accurately, is the word "Israel" after the word "created" in that verse in the Hebrew?

English Bibles do translate the text with Progressive Pronouns. It is reasonable to think it is.

 

[TheLearner]

Yes... I agree. I do not believe in the trinity doctrine.

Please list your reasons for not believe in it.
Don't waste my time by saying the word trinity is not in the Bible. Many titles for doctrines are not used in the Bible.

Have Blessed Day,
daniel

 

[TheLearner]

Since you wish to discuss my unbelief,
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord;
I do not believe that Jesus said the Father was greater than He. I know it is written in the Scriptures
I do not believe that Jesus said the Father was His God. I know it is written in the Scriptures.
I do not believe that it is said Jesus is the Only-Begotten Son. I know it is written in the Scriptures.
I do not believe that it is said the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. I know it is written in the Scriptures.
I do not believe you as commanded by the Scriptures.

Your self identified piety or scholarship is not of interest to me. I have tested your sayings against the Scriptures and I have found it lacking. Your scholarship is tainted by greek philosophy, but you refuse to grant them citation.

As purveyors of digested scholarship, the question of trust is paramount. I do not trust you in your pursuit of truth. The term אֲבִיעַ֖ד has the component עַ֖ד shown. No further compounding or elaboration. Strong`s 5706 Original Word: עַד Definition: booty, prey
It is not an ankle!

Your rush to judgement clothed in pious outrage is telling of your church experiences.

I only have time to deal with "greater" statement.

Basically, those in the Military have Ranks. A General and Private are both human. One simply has a higher rank.

Thee Greek word for begotten has the meaning of unique.

International Standard Version
"For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.

 

[TheLearner]

No one is judging you stop acting like a snowflake. Do you believe Jesus is God from what I see you say "I do not believe" you do not agree with Scripture that Jesus is God?

I want to know that too.

 

[justbyfaith]

Since you wish to discuss my unbelief,
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord;
I do not believe that Jesus said the Father was greater than He. I know it is written in the Scriptures
I do not believe that Jesus said the Father was His God. I know it is written in the Scriptures.
I do not believe that it is said Jesus is the Only-Begotten Son. I know it is written in the Scriptures.
I do not believe that it is said the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. I know it is written in the Scriptures.
I do not believe you as commanded by the Scriptures.

Your self identified piety or scholarship is not of interest to me. I have tested your sayings against the Scriptures and I have found it lacking. Your scholarship is tainted by greek philosophy, but you refuse to grant them citation.

As purveyors of digested scholarship, the question of trust is paramount. I do not trust you in your pursuit of truth. The term אֲבִיעַ֖ד has the component עַ֖ד shown. No further compounding or elaboration. Strong`s 5706 Original Word: עַד Definition: booty, prey
It is not an ankle!

Your rush to judgement clothed in pious outrage is telling of your church experiences.

The Father is greater than Jesus as concerning His humanity, not His Deity (John 5:18).

That Jesus said His Father was His God does not make Jesus any less God (see Hebrews 1:8-9 (kjv), Revelation 1:6 (kjv)).

That Jesus is the only begotten Son indicates that He is "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6).

Why wouldn't I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God? I believe that.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, I do not understand the godhead, but I suspect neither do you.

I do.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is the other way around. The literal meaning is father of booty or father of eternity. Because of cultural Christendom, it was changed to everlasting father.

The kjv's rendering is accurate.

For God is both sovereign and Omnipotent and loving;

So He is not going to give anything but His unadulterated message to the common people.

 

[justbyfaith]

I think you are talking modalism. I don't think alot your trinitarian brothers and sisters will agree with you.

I am believing in and preaching a distinction between the members of the Trinity, so it is not modalism that I am preaching; although I emphasize the Oneness of the Lord in my preaching.

 

[justbyfaith]

English Bibles do translate the text with Progressive Pronouns. It is reasonable to think it is.

But, do you personally have a Hebrew Bible?

And is the word "Israel" after the word "created" in that Bible, if you have it?

 

[justbyfaith]

But, do you personally have a Hebrew Bible?

And is the word "Israel" after the word "created" in that Bible, if you have it?

What I'm trying to get at is, do you think that the kjv was inaccurately translated?

So that it ought to say,

Isa 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One, of Israel and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Instead of what it says,

Isa 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

 

[MalikB]

Please list your reasons for not believe in it.
Don't waste my time by saying the word trinity is not in the Bible. Many titles for doctrines are not used in the Bible.

Have Blessed Day,
daniel

The trinity doctrine states that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three co-equal persons that define "God". I don't believe it is scriptural to say they are all equal, or all persons...

I have posted many scriptures on this forum illustrating how according to The Messiah, everything from him ultimately comes from The Father.... He said The Father is greater than him, is the only One all-knowing, etc....Along with The Father Himself saying He is above ALL Gods. That is not co-equal.

I also don't see the Holy Sprit (or spirit in general) as a person.... but rather the energy controlled by said person. Because spirit is required for all life, I believe the word is sometimes personified like many other things in scripture (the sun, the moon, water, wisdom, etc.). But unlike the Father and Son, the Holy spirit does not get an actual name, a throne in heaven, neither is it mentioned in any of the epistle greetings with The Father and Son. Just like man has a spirit, The Holy spirit is referred to as The Father's spirit. It is His spirit. So rather than The Holy spirit being it's own person, I believe The Father is the person behind the spirit. We can't see or hear the Father directly, so He communicates through His spirit.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

No one is judging you stop acting like a snowflake. Do you believe Jesus is God from what I see you say "I do not believe" you do not agree with Scripture that Jesus is God?

Now I am an agnostic snowflake obsessed with booty? Wow!
I thought it was clear. My faith requirements are spelled out in the Apostles's Creed. No more. No less. What I know are what is in the the Scriptures. Understand?

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Jesus is God 100% and man 100% If He is the Son of God then HE is God because the Son of God is Eternal as the Father is.

IF You have seen me you have seen( past tense) My Father.

John 14:9

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time, and you do not know Me yet, Philip, nor recognize clearly who I am? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’

I also think that one who cries " Don't judge me" then refers to others as being in a cult is well below the belt. But it does speak volumes to your understanding. I thank you for your opinion and will place you on ignore to prevent me from saying to you things that you think are judgment.

That is 200%. Does that make sense when 100% means all?

Have you seen an Invisible God? Are you able to see beyond this timespace continuum? The demonstrable presence of Christ's Authority, Personality and Holiness is as close as you can get to God.

Matt 4:7 Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, You shall not put the Lord your God to the test"
Philip wanted a miracle. See above.

You can judge me all you want. I was just saying your actions revealed your cards and you were bluffing. Asking someone to believe beyond the Apostle's Creed is basically a new religion. In the relative sense, a cult.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

I only have time to deal with "greater" statement.

Basically, those in the Military have Ranks. A General and Private are both human. One simply has a higher rank.

Thee Greek word for begotten has the meaning of unique.

International Standard Version
"For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.

If the category is military human, I would agree. But let us say miltary asset. Is a human Marine the same as an AI uav?

We are the children of Sarai. Children of Promise. As Abraham was about to sacrifice his only begotten son isaac to God, so has God sacrificed His Only Begotten Son for humanity. Why should I take away the Glory of God's Sacrifice with the man's carnal interpretation of unique. Is it not written that the Word was with God at the beginning?

 

[justbyfaith]

That is 200%.

100% x 100% = 100%, if you know your math.

 

[justbyfaith]

If the category is military human, I would agree. But let us say miltary asset. Is a human Marine the same as an AI uav?

We are the children of Sarai. Children of Promise. As Abraham was about to sacrifice his only begotten son isaac to God, so has God sacrificed His Only Begotten Son for humanity. Why should I take away the Glory of God's Sacrifice with the man's carnal interpretation of unique. Is it not written that the Word was with God at the beginning?

And that He was God in the beginning; unless you go by the faulty NeWT (cousin of the serpent).

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

The Father is greater than Jesus as concerning His humanity, not His Deity (John 5:18).

That Jesus said His Father was His God does not make Jesus any less God (see Hebrews 1:8-9 (kjv), Revelation 1:6 (kjv)).

That Jesus is the only begotten Son indicates that He is "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6).

Why wouldn't I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God? I believe that.

Absolute Sovereignty was given to him - God gave it. Jesus, after dying, ascended to His God. Jesus' place is at the Right Hand Side of the Throne not on the throne - that is the Throne of God. There is only One Immortal Soul, God - that means all else are contingent. As I have argued before, show me what is definitively written about the Deity of Christ that is not touched by opinion.

I do not know how your logic works here. God is the Creator of Everything and Absolute Sovereign. How can a co-equal person of the godhead be God and have a God?

Consider this trinitarian site https://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/Isaiah_9.6.php
Isaiah 9:6—Why is Jesus called “the everlasting Father” if He is the Son of God?

Problem: The orthodox Christian doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is one Essence in three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, Isaiah 9:6 calls the Messiah “the everlasting Father.” How can Jesus be both the Father and the Son?

Solution: This verse is not a Trinitarian formula that calls Jesus Christ the Father. Actually, it is easier to grasp the idea when the phrase is rendered literally into English, “Father of eternity.” (I think this is kind of funny) The first part of verse six makes reference to the incarnation of Jesus. The part that lists the names by which He is called expresses His relationship to His people. He is to us the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Father of Eternity, the Prince of Peace. Considered in this way, we see that Jesus is the One who gives us eternal life. By His death, burial, and resurrection, He has brought life and immortality to light. Truly, He is the Father of eternity for His people. The name “Father of eternity” indicates that, as a loving father provides for His children, so Jesus loves us and has provided for us by giving us everlasting life.

At the pentecost, the Holy Spirit was poured in the people. Can you pour a person?

 

[justbyfaith]

The trinity doctrine states that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three co-equal persons that define "God". I don't believe it is scriptural to say they are all equal, or all persons...

I have posted many scriptures on this forum illustrating how according to The Messiah, everything from him ultimately comes from The Father.... He said The Father is greater than him, is the only One all-knowing, etc....Along with The Father Himself saying He is above ALL Gods. That is not co-equal.

I also don't see the Holy Sprit (or spirit in general) as a person.... but rather the energy controlled by said person. Because spirit is required for all life, I believe the word is sometimes personified like many other things in scripture (the sun, the moon, water, wisdom, etc.). But unlike the Father and Son, the Holy spirit does not get an actual name, a throne in heaven, neither is it mentioned in any of the epistle greetings with The Father and Son. Just like man has a spirit, The Holy spirit is referred to as The Father's spirit. It is His spirit. So rather than The Holy spirit being it's own person, I believe The Father is the person behind the spirit. We can't see or hear the Father directly, so He communicates through His spirit.

The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4) and He is a Person with personality. For, He makes intercession for us and has a mind (Romans 8:26-27).