Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

Absolutely · Oct 17, 2021

Garbage.

The Father = One distinct person
Jesus = One distinct person.

Prove it without any room for challenge.

OK....I will

Rev 5
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Jesus standing there takes the scroll out of the hand of the Father,

oopps

Absolutely · Oct 17, 2021

MalikB said:

The Holy Spirit is addressed as a "He" for different reasons in different places in scripture:

Personification....

Genesis 4:10

And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Psalm 77:16

The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: the depths also were troubled.

Isaiah 24:23

Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Joel 1:10

The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.

Proverbs 8:1

Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

Can blood cry? Can water be afraid? Can the sun be ashamed? Can land mourn? Is wisdom female with a voice?

Nobody can survive without spirit, its the lifeforce from The Most High... Therefore spirit is many times used interchangeably with the person controlling it:

Genesis 41:8

8 And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.

Samuel 1:15

15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the Lord.

1 Kings 21:4-5

4 And Ahab came into his house heavy and displeased because of the word which Naboth the Jezreelite had spoken to him: for he had said, I will not give thee the inheritance of my fathers. And he laid him down upon his bed, and turned away his face, and would eat no bread.
5 But Jezebel his wife came to him, and said unto him, Why is thy spirit so sad, that thou eatest no bread?

So if I say my spirit is sad, sorrowful, troubled, in grief, etc.... does that mean it is a separate person from me? Of course not. The spirit is part of what makes up a human being. Likewise with the Holy Spirit... which is The Most High's spirit.

Mankind can not see or hear The Most High. He communicates to us through His Spirit. Just like your spirit is not a separate person from you, His spirit is not a separate person from Him. He is the person controlling the spirit, and we experience Him through His Holy spirit.

The last reason The Holy Spirit is sometimes referred to a "He" is simply based on the translator's choice. Many pronouns are universal and could be translated as he, she, it, etc. I do think it makes the most sense to translate the pronouns dealing with the Holy Spirit as "He" though because The Father is the person behind His spirit.

We are never told to worship the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit does not have an actual name, no throne in heaven, not mentioned in any of the epistle greetings with the Father and Son, etc. We should be giving The Most High all the glory, rather than share it with His way of interacting with us.

We are 3 parts

spirit
soul
body

looks like you are struggling Quite a bit trying to jettison or reframe "He"

Absolutely · Oct 17, 2021

TheLearner said:

His theology is closer to

Jesus was Not a Trinitarian
A Call to Return to the Creed of Jesus
By Anthony F. Buzzard

The One God, the Father, One Man Messiah Translation
New Testament with Commentary
By Anthony Buzzard

Sir Anthony Farquhar Buzzard, 3rd Baronet, ARCM (b. 28 June 1935), is a biblical scholar, unitarian Christian theologian, author and professor on the faculty of Atlanta Bible College.

https://web.archive.org/web/20120602173948/http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles.html

unity is some slick heresy.

Absolutely · Oct 17, 2021

justbyfaith said:

Heb 1
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

ya'll were saying?????

MalikB · Oct 17, 2021

rayzor said:

In modern Hebrew you need the vowel points to tell you how a word should be pronounced. You can have multiple Hebrew words with the exact same characters, but are pronounced differently because of the niqqud. In a phonetic language, there is not multiple sounds for letters... For example, even without knowing the meanings of the words, I can read Spanish because the letters always sound the same.

MalikB · Oct 17, 2021

Absolutely said:

No struggle, verses were posted

MalikB · Oct 17, 2021

Absolutely said:

Jesus is not "the word"... he is the word made flesh. Stop adding to the text.

MalikB · Oct 17, 2021

Absolutely said:

Heb 1
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

ya'll were saying?????

So the Son is ranked above the angels... I never disagreed with that.

justbyfaith · Oct 17, 2021

Absolutely said:

Jesus is a distinct Person from the Father in that He is come in the flesh; while the Father is a Spirit without flesh.

justbyfaith · Oct 17, 2021

Absolutely said:

Heb 1
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

ya'll were saying?????

See my response in post #589.

LactoseIntolerant · Oct 17, 2021

justbyfaith said:

I guess we have different metrics for truth.
Have a good day!;-)

Roar · Oct 17, 2021

To me it has always been rather simple. We are made in the image of God.

We are Mind, Flesh, and Soul and God is God the Father, God the Son and The Spirit of God. If you study the Old Testament you begin to understand the difference between God the Father and God the Son. Then in the New Testament in the Book of Acts you begin to understand the personhood of the Spirithood of the Spirithood of God as He is a person not some nebulous ghostly apparition but a person you can have a personal relationship with.

MalikB · Oct 17, 2021

Roar said:

What makes someone a "person" is a mind. Spirit does not have a mind. Spirit is energy/lifeforce/qi that comes from The Most High in which a person needs to survive and can use as they see fit and know how. We don't say that our spirit is a separate person from us... likewise The Father's spirit is not a separate person from Him. Mankind can not see or hear the Father directly... We communicate with Him through His Holy spirit. His spirit is not a separate person from Him... He is the person behind the spirit.

phil36 · Oct 17, 2021

justbyfaith said:

So was Jesus a distinct person before the incarnation?

justbyfaith · Oct 17, 2021

LactoseIntolerant said:

Because I believe that the Bible dictates truth and you don't?

justbyfaith · Oct 17, 2021

MalikB said:

Rom 8:27, And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

justbyfaith · Oct 17, 2021

phil36 said:

Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35).

However, He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10), to exist again outside of time; so His existence after raising from the dead extends into eternity past.

My question to you...

Did 1/3 of God descend to become a Man? Did a 2nd God descend to become a Man?

Or, was it God?

LactoseIntolerant · Oct 17, 2021

justbyfaith said:

What you say should match what you mean. I do not see that in your doctrine.
I will leave the last word for you.

MalikB · Oct 17, 2021

justbyfaith said:

The word there actually means inclination, but it's irrelevant. Spirit is the vessel in which thoughts and actions are expressed. This is why spirit is sometimes used interchangeably with aspects of personhood:

1 Kings 21:4-5

4 And Ahab came into his house heavy and displeased because of the word which Naboth the Jezreelite had spoken to him: for he had said, I will not give thee the inheritance of my fathers. And he laid him down upon his bed, and turned away his face, and would eat no bread.
5 But Jezebel his wife came to him, and said unto him, Why is thy spirit so sad, that thou eatest no bread?

Is Ahab sad or is His spirit sad?

Spirit is not it's own person... there is always a separate person behind it. Whether it be mankind, an angel or The Most High Himself.

justbyfaith · Oct 18, 2021

MalikB said:

Both.

It has been taught, and I believe it to be sound doctrine,

That we are a spirit, we have a soul, and we dwell in a body.

Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

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