Unforgivable Sin

roaringkitten · Apr 2, 2009

Very good points canadian!!! 100% Biblical.....ALL of our sins were FUTURE when Jesus died on the cross for our sins 2000 yrs ago! And the Word says its clearly not partly works and partly grace, but 100% grace! So someone to say that on the merits of bad works someone can lose salvation really do not understand what Jesus accomplished on the cross!!! Still, no one who does not believe in eternal secuirty will even touch the verses that speak of works and faith being separate, but are quick to try and explain hard passages which speak nothing about a born again Christian losing salvation!

"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:14-15

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10

NoahsDad · Apr 2, 2009

roaringkitten said:

Very good points canadian!!! 100% Biblical.....ALL of our sins were FUTURE when Jesus died on the cross for our sins 2000 yrs ago! And the Word says its clearly not partly works and partly grace, but 100% grace! So someone to say that on the merits of bad works someone can lose salvation really do not understand what Jesus accomplished on the cross!!! Still, no one who does not believe in eternal secuirty will even touch the verses that speak of works and faith being separate, but are quick to try and explain hard passages which speak nothing about a born again Christian losing salvation!

"If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:14-15

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10

Iwish I knew 1/2 of whatyou think you know

roaringkitten · Apr 2, 2009

Noahsdad, you didn't really help with anything here by saying that....Why not contribute instead of making random remarks that help no one? When did I ever say I know more than anyone on here? If you want to play, play in the miscellanious thread!

MahogonySnail · Apr 2, 2009

Roaring, I don't think you are really teaching the whole of what scripture says. Here are some scriptures showing believers, people who call Jesus Lord etc, being cast aside suffering the same fate as unbelievers. In fact Jesus spoke these stories to warn his own disciples against going astray. If Jesus didn't think his own disciples could possibly fall away, why bother warning them at all.

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says in his heart, My lord delays his coming, and shall begin to beat the male servants and women servants, and to eat and drink and to be drunk,
Luk 12:46 the lord of that servant will come in a day when he does not expect, and at an hour when he does not know. And he will cut him apart, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Mat 24:51 And He shall cut him apart and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And here is scriptures showing that yes a person's name can be erased from the Book of Life. Once it's in there doesn't mean God has to keep it there.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous.

Rev 3:5 The one who overcomes, this one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev 22:19 And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book.

You mention that works has nothing to do with it, but if that's true, why are people's works judged at all:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.

And because everyone's works will be judged, Jesus commands repentance.

Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,
Act 17:31 because He has appointed a day in which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He appointed, having given proof to all by raising Him from the dead.

roaringkitten · Apr 2, 2009

Well....I guess to you the Scriptures must be contradicting themselves...I think you are going around the Word trying to find passages that you want to say of a born-again believer losing his salvation. Tell me btw, where do you stand? Do you think a born-again Christian can be lost again because they did bad works? Why not tell me your full position......

MahogonySnail · Apr 2, 2009

The fact is I have found passages that warn believers that they could suffer the same fate as unbelievers. Jesus was speaking to his disciples at the time, no doubt He was warning them for a very good reason.

I'm not sure what that does to your position on eternal security.

I have found passages with warnings about names being removed from the book of life.

If a person's name is removed from the book of life, logically there name must have been in that book to begin with. That too may bring question to your view on eternal security. So what do you think happens to a christian who intentionally changes the book of Revelations? Do they still keep their name in the book of life?

I have found the passages where it says people will be judged according to their works. But you have been saying that works don't matter so much
and it's only about our belief. If that's so can you find any passage in Revelations which says that God will ask us a yes or no question "why should I let you into heaven?" and we are allowed to enter based on a correct response? I can't find that sort of test in there.

Can a born again Christian be lost? I believe only if they turn away from the faith in complete apostasy. Coming out of Egypt is symbolic for a Christian coming out of their past life. But they still have to enter into the promised land. Some of God's beloved people the Israelites fell in the desert never making it to the promised land.

I think God has a very long arm of grace. But I wouldn't say what God can or cannot do. I have read and heard personal testimonies of christians even pastors who have died and come back to life again, who when they were in heaven were warned by God that their sin may have led them to end up in hell unless they repented.

My personal view is that a born-again Christian can be lost if they live in unrepentant sin and hardened heart. The scripture is full of exhortation and warnings and I can't see the point of those scriptures if it wasn't possible for us to endanger our own soul. Jesus lost one of His disciples, Judas, so I'm not sure why believing christians can fall away is such a problem for you.

MahogonySnail · Apr 2, 2009

And in promoting your view of eternal security as the only correct way, out of a number of possible views, you are completely ignoring scriptures such as this which warn against "drawing back" etc. Anyone who renounces their religion , God will not be pleased with them.

Heb 10:38 Now, "the Just shall live by faith. But if he draws back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him."
Heb 10:39 But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of those who believe to the preserving of the soul.

Sinnner · Apr 2, 2009

roaringkitten said:

Whenever someone shows you a scripture that is undeniable to the belief of conditional salvation you always say that the scriptures will never contradict its self. This is true, have you ever thought that your new age interpritation of the gospel could be wrong. Every day I read the bible and I see another scripture that contradicts your new age gospel. If you believe the way we do when you read the bible ther is no longer contradictions in the bible.

MahogonySnail · Apr 2, 2009

Then there is passages like Galatians 5:4 where Paul is warning them about falling from grace.

Here Paul is speaking to genuine Christians (Gal 5:1), who were being deceived into thinking that their works could save them. Which ultimately means Christ is of no effect to them. He is warning them to get back on track.

And with obvious passages of scripture like these you say Christians can't lose their salvation? What else could "fall from grace", "Christ is no effect" mean?

Oh they might get a smaller wooden hut in heaven instead of a big gold mansion? Where is that in scripture.

roaringkitten · Apr 2, 2009

"blotted out of the book of life" is not referring to a born again believer losing his salvation......baptistrw pointed this out on another thread. There are different audiences in the Word. You can lose your testimony, lose the ministry, lose your life, etc...

I have found the passages where it says people will be judged according to their works. But you have been saying that works don't matter so much
and it's only about our belief. If that's so can you find any passage in Revelations which says that God will ask us a yes or no question "why should I let you into heaven?" and we are allowed to enter based on a correct response? I can't find that sort of test in there.

Believers get judged at the judgment seat of Christ(earlier referred passages). Works have no part in saving faith. So why does God judge Christians by our works? Because we were ordained to live by good works, a believer will not be judged as a criminal(because Jesus already paid the PRICE for all our sins), but cannot be lost because he believed in the Son(christiancanadian already posted a verse speaking "saved as by the fire".

roaringkitten · Apr 2, 2009

have you ever thought that your new age interpritation of the gospel could be wrong.

I think you misunderstand what New Age means. New age is a religion that says man is a god within that controls his own destiny(research this, this comes from popular new agers like Oprah, and many more). before the fall in the garden of Eden man was in fellowship with God....Then Eve sinned and the penalty of sin was death. The entire basis of salvation is GOD giving us eternal life....NOT man giving himself eternal life.....The popular works gospel being preached today is nothing short of New Age...

Baptistrw · Apr 2, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Legalism means the abandonment of Christ as one's only hope of righteousness. This verse has given rise to considerable discussion. Many different interpretations have been offered, but these may be grouped broadly in three classes, as follows:
1. Many hold that Paul here teaches that it is possible for a person to be truly saved, then to fall into sin, and therefore to fall from grace and be forever lost. This has come to be known as "the falling away doctrine." We believe such an interpretation to be unsound for two compelling reasons: First, the verse does not describe saved persons who fall into sin. In fact, there is no mention of falling into sin. Rather, the verse is speaking of those who are living moral, respectable, upright lives and hope to be saved thereby. Thus the passage acts as a boomerang on those who use it to support the falling away doctrine. They teach that a Christian must keep the law, live a perfect life and otherwise refrain from sinning in order to remain saved. However, this Scripture insists that all who seek to be justified by works of law or self-effort have fallen from grace.
Secondly, this interpretation contradicts the over-all, consistent testimony of the NT to the effect that every true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is eternally saved, that no sheep of Christ will ever perish, and that salvation depends entirely on the finished work of the Savior, and not on man's feeble efforts (John 3:16, 36; 5:24; 6:47; 10:28).
2. A second interpretation of the verse is that it refers to those who were originally saved by faith in the Lord Jesus, but who subsequently put themselves under the law to retain their salvation or to achieve holiness. In other words, they were saved by grace, but now seek to be kept by law. In this case, to fall from grace is, as Philip Mauro put it, "to turn from God's way of perfecting His saints by the work of the Spirit in them, and to seek that end through the observance of external rites and ceremonies, which men of the flesh can observe as well as saints of God."
This view is unscriptural, first because the verse does not describe Christians who seek holiness or sanctification, but rather unsaved persons who seek justification by law-keeping. Note the wording-you who attempt to be justified by law. And second, this explanation of the verse implies the possibility of saved people being subsequently severed from Christ, and this is inconsistent with right views of the grace of God.
3. The third interpretation is that Paul is speaking of people who might profess to be Christians but who are not truly saved. They are seeking to be justified by keeping the law. The apostle is telling them that they cannot have two saviors; they must choose either Christ or the law. If they choose the law, then they are severed from Christ as their only possible hope of righteousness; they have fallen from grace. Hogg and Vine express it clearly:
Christ must be everything or nothing to a man; no limited trust or divided allegiance is acceptable to Him. The man who is justified by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is a Christian; the man who seeks to be justified by the works of the law is not.

MahogonySnail · Apr 2, 2009

So you basically explain away scriptures by saying you can lose your testimony, ministry, life, gold mansions in heaven, crowns, rewards, whatever...
use any excuse to avoid saying lose salvation.

Jesus paid the price for our sins yes, but I don't think the types of sin this is referring to is this kind of sin:

Luk 12:45 But if that servant says in his heart, My lord delays his coming, and shall begin to beat the male servants and women servants, and to eat and drink and to be drunk

And note it is speaking about a servant of the Lord. Not an unbeliever. And what do you think "portion with the unbelievers" means? Loss of a nice golden mansion and given a wooden hut instead? hmm.

Luk 12:46 the lord of that servant will come in a day when he does not expect, and at an hour when he does not know. And he will cut him apart, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Or do you believe these unfaithful servants will not lose their salvation? just a reward?

I recall posting a list on this website before. Can't find it now. Of all the great bible scholars and men of past who did not believe in your view on eternal security. It was a rather long list. I don't think you can be quite so sure that your view is the only right one when you consider all of these great knowledgeable men and women of the bible.

I don't think of losing salvation as "losing salvation". I think of it as falling out of favor with the Savior. Stop seeing salvation as a ticket to heaven based upon what you think you believe. Start seeing it as a relationship with a very real Person named Jesus.

roaringkitten · Apr 2, 2009

My personal view is that a born-again Christian can be lost if they live in unrepentant sin and hardened heart.

You mean a born again Christian can go to hell? Unrepentant sin, is of itself a whole list of bad works. So you are saying on the merits of bad works a born again Christian can lose his salvation? Those who claimed to be Christian then one day said "I dont have faith in Christ anymore" are liars!

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." 1 John 2:19

These are false professors of Christ! This passage btw, does not talk about a born-again Christian losing his salvation!

roaringkitten · Apr 2, 2009

Good points baptistrw....Here, this verse speaks that it is NOT partly grace and partly works!

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But IF IT BE OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO MORE GRACE: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6

man gets to choose. They can COMPLETELY depend on the Savior, or depend on themselves. Even partly depending on yourself for salvation makes void true faith in Christ! It's either/or!

Abing · Apr 2, 2009

roaringkitten said:

Since this is my thread, no one is allowed to kick anyone!

I'll read this thread again later and check your answers to my question, but right now im not yet here so ill ttyl

MahogonySnail · Apr 2, 2009

It is also a boomerang for those who don't support falling away doctrine. Because you are forced to conclude that true believing christians can fall away from grace and yet still be saved. What kind of doctrine is that? That contradicts the very doctrine you hold to, that we are saved by faith in Christ alone and not of works. Yet here you are forced to claim that a believer in Christ can trust in their circumcision , fall from grace, and yet still be saved.

This is written to the church at Galatia was it not? i.e. believers?
Judging by Gal 5:1, it is warning them not to turn away from the liberty in Christ that they had. I can't see anything in those passages to indicate Paul is writing to unbelievers. Or those that thought they were believers but didn't really believe anyway.

No it's not very consistent actually. What happened to Judas? He was lost. There's one example. Was Judas a sheep or a goat? I think he was a sheep up until satan entered him and he denied Christ. There is no indication that Judas was counted as an unbeliever while he walked with Christ, no indication that Judas was not considered to be one of the 12, and no indication that Judas was thought by the others that he "was not really a true christian". Judas shared in their ministry, casting out devils, healing the sick. Judas followed Christ even when many of his other disciples refused to walk with him anymore.

You say these people were unsaved persons. But why would Paul be writing to unsaved persons, to warn them about keeping the law? And why would he say they have fallen, if they weren't really true believers? Fallen from grace means just that, fallen. To fall from grace must obviously mean they had it in the first place.

I think my views fall into this third interpretation. I can't see any other way to read it than it speaks to saved believers, warning them about falling from grace. And if they fall so far, that they no longer trust in Christ, then how can they hope to be saved?

Sinnner · Apr 2, 2009

roaringkitten said:

What I know as the gospel has been being taught as truth for over 2000 years. The garbage that you teach has only been around for 500 years, this is a fact, you tend to dodge this or act like its not true even though I have supplied documentation. The things you teach will send people to hell and your interpritation of the gospel is straight from satan. The fact that the moderators refuse to do anything about you leading people to hell leads me to believe that they have the same views of will tollerate lies, either way I no longer value my membership at CC. Thank you and God Bless.

MahogonySnail · Apr 2, 2009

We both believe in this, as Baptist posted don't we?

The difference is how we interpret abandoning Christ.
We could say
a) We can't abandon Christ.
b) We can abandon Christ but we are still saved
c) We can abandon Christ but are not saved.
d) We never belonged to Christ in the first place.

The passage you quoted, from 1 John, referring to gnostics? I think. Yes I think they fall into d) category. But this doesn't prove that a), b), c) views are false.

What about a person who does belong to Christ?
option a) - doesn't leave room for our free will, poor choices etc. Doesn't explain how Judas and a number of other believers mentioned in scripture, fell away. These were considered to be true christians.

Option b), doesn't really make sense. We can't be saved without the Savior. If we deny Christ, He'll deny us.

Option c) is the only one I think that fits nicely with all views in scripture.

MahogonySnail · Apr 2, 2009

Sinnner I don't think Roaring is leading anyone to hell that's a little bit harsh.

Roaring I'm posting these scriptures and discussion to hopefully show you that your interpretation on this issue is just that, an interpretation. You can't really claim that all other interpretations mean they are not true Christians and all this sort of talk. Because you seem to bring it up all the time this faith vs works issue.

Just because I believe that a Christian may possibly lose salvation doesn't mean I think works saves. I'm not saying trusting in our works saves. I'm saying lack of faith or bad works doesn't. And there's nothing in scripture, from the old testament to the new, that convinces me that people who are truly real christians, can never show both lack of faith or bad works if they are deceived or otherwise.

Unforgivable Sin

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