Visualization in Prayer

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Mar 17, 2021
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I think the op was deliberate in her verbage. " Open up new spiritual world" states the motive
I agree. There is no "new" spiritual world for the Christian believer. The Scripture says that believers live by faith, which is total trust and dependence on written Scripture. The "higher life" and "spiritual realm" are figments of the imagination. When the Bible describes a person as "spiritual" ("those who are spiritual judge all things), it is talking about someone living and walking in the Spirit. And the way we walk in the Spirit is that we walk by faith and not by sight.

So this idea that someone is elevated to a "higher spiritual plane" is New Age occult. Walking in the Spirit is living according to the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, patience, faithfulness, goodness and self-control. Not being elevated to some mystical spiritual realm above the normal "herd" godly believers.

The notion of a "spiritual world" originally comes from the monastic mysticism of the Middle Ages where through total separation from the world, locked away in a small cell, the monks achieve heightened spiritual awareness of God, the universe and everything. They didn't call it "New Age" way back then, but it is the same thing.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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I found a playlist:

Skipping around a bit, I found one song I had heard in church back in the day. The songs are a bit of the 'lalalala' variety. That doesn't really get the meaning across as it does when I sing it in a high pitched voice. The songs, IMO, are a bit less musically interesting (to my ears) than some of the contemporary songs you mention which now happen to be accompanied by rock guitars-- or more often the non-distorted guitar ambient sound combined with a strong. I like the modern style personally. I also like many styles of old hymns. I like Gregorian chants. These 'lalalala' choruses from the '80's can have great lyrics, but the musical style isn't really my favorite. I can praise God to them.

It would be great if more scripture were put to different styles of music for praise music, IMO. I consider the musical style to be largely a matter of taste and the words that edify. If the music is appealing, I find that good. The psalmist said to play skillfully with a loud noise.

Some of the newer songs are actually rather good in terms of lyrics, and some of them do take lyrics out of scripture or have good doctrine. Much of the song 'The Blessing' comes right out of scripture, for example. Some of the songs will have generally good doctrine but have a few lines here and there that are questionable.
Thank you for posting this. It reminded me that we never had any overheads or projectors as we did not need them. Because the songs were simple it only needed singing a couple of times and the words and tune were picked up. Nothing worse than having to keep your eyes and attention on a screen because of the complex nature of a song and its music. That is one thing my wife complains about with modern music.

I remember being in one meeting last year where the volume of the music was horrendous. it was so bad that I had to leave my seat and go to the back of the room and stand behind a screen because the volume was playing havoc with my pacemaker rythms.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,617
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...Nothing worse than having to keep your eyes and attention on a screen because of the complex nature of a song and its music. That is one thing my wife complains about with modern music.

I remember being in one meeting last year where the volume of the music was horrendous. it was so bad that I had to leave my seat and go to the back of the room and stand behind a screen because the volume was playing havoc with my pacemaker rythms.
This is really disturbing sights at progressive churches and I believe it's an unwise handling of matters that makes a bad testimony (whatever is being taught) that distracts people. Not to mention this common scene of a group of max 15 people gathered in a small locale and they're yet having a sound speaker system with a guy shouting in a microphone. The worldly sounding top of the pops for the day style of music was already mentioned, anything but relaxing and calm.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Worshiping that image would be idolatry. We worship God who is invisible, with faith based in the Scriptures. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. If you are worshiping a humanoid figure on a throne, then you are worshiping a god that is not in the Bible, but one concocted in your imagination.
If Ezekiel worshiped during his vision-- recorded in the Bible, would you call that idolatry.

I am wary if people who make a bunch of junk up and call that doctrine. The Bible says not to make a graven image and bow down to it. There are no warnings against thinking in pictures when you pray. Today many people think in pictures. I assume this was the case in times past, especially among people who spent less time reading.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
6,495
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Thank you for posting this. It reminded me that we never had any overheads or projectors as we did not need them. Because the songs were simple it only needed singing a couple of times and the words and tune were picked up. Nothing worse than having to keep your eyes and attention on a screen because of the complex nature of a song and its music. That is one thing my wife complains about with modern music.

I remember being in one meeting last year where the volume of the music was horrendous. it was so bad that I had to leave my seat and go to the back of the room and stand behind a screen because the volume was playing havoc with my pacemaker rythms.
I remember going to church without OHPs and then when these things started to be added. We relied a lot on hymnals back then, but sang choruses. I think it is a lot like driving a GPS. If you don't have one, you learn directions fast. If you do have one, it can take a lot longer to learn the route. It's kind of a crutch. I am not anti-screen myself, though. I do like everyone being able to see the Bible on the page if it is used that way.

I went to a church for a little while where the volume was ridiculously bad. I finally got the sound guy to turn it down when I pointed out the decibels might hurt a baby's ears that was placed in the front. I wore cotton in my ears for a while so I could hear and gave cotton to family members. It was ridiculous. The pastor was telling the sound guy to do it. He didn't seem to be deaf when you calked to him, and he was young. And right at the end, when the pastor wanted to emphasize the end of the message, he told the sound guy to crank up the sound, and sometimes I couldn't make out what he was saying anymore. Maybe the sound was quiet on stage. The pastor got lots of feedback that the sound was too loud. I think some people left over that.

Something I don't care for is the practice of playing some kind of gospel or CCM mood music at the end of a sermon, during an 'altar call' or whatever they say at the end. Many years ago the doctor me my hearing was normal 'for my age.' Maybe young folks could make it out, but I've been in situations where the sound wasn't perfect, and the preacher was trying to present the gospel at the end, but I could hardly make out what he was saying over the music.

I have heard a lot of background music during movies and TV shows-- fiction designed to manipulate our emotions. When I hear it during a sermon used like that, IMO, it can give off an air of fakeness, of a lack of seriousness. That's not what is intended. But in my opinion, it is often a distraction, and it can make it harder for seniors to hear.
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
If Ezekiel worshiped during his vision-- recorded in the Bible, would you call that idolatry.

I am wary if people who make a bunch of junk up and call that doctrine. The Bible says not to make a graven image and bow down to it. There are no warnings against thinking in pictures when you pray. Today many people think in pictures. I assume this was the case in times past, especially among people who spent less time reading.
That's not what the op is about, this is an obfuscation.

Ezekiel's vision was from God, not his imagination.

The op gave specific staments as to intent.
Use visualization with the Lord's prayer
And open up new spiritual worlds.

This is the problem as it has been covered. Not all the side tracks and obfuscations that you keep bringing up.
I know it don't matter what is say, and that is why I stopped saying stuff to you.

Again the op made statement of intent.
One too "use visualization with the Lord's prayer", and too " open up new spiritual worlds. "

This is not eluding to visual thinking style. That is an obfuscation.

So to go over it one more time.
The op stated specific statements of intent. Those statements are as follows, "use visualization with the Lord's prayer" " to open up new spiritual worlds".

Ok thank you
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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That's not what the op is about, this is an obfuscation.

Ezekiel's vision was from God, not his imagination.
But if someone reads Ezekiel's vision and imagines what he is reading, picturing it in his mind, is that a vision or imagination?

The op gave specific staments as to intent.
Use visualization with the Lord's prayer
And open up new spiritual worlds.
Sounds like a bit of hype, but hype and idolatry are not the same thing. If you say that is untrue, well that is something we could discuss. The conversation went on to talk about 'idolatry'-- which is not the same thing.

What is your problem with the author's specific statements about what to do with the Lord's prayer? Is it just that you object to the term 'visualization'?
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
But if someone reads Ezekiel's vision and imagines what he is reading, picturing it in his mind, is that a vision or imagination?



Sounds like a bit of hype, but hype and idolatry are not the same thing. If you say that is untrue, well that is something we could discuss. The conversation went on to talk about 'idolatry'-- which is not the same thing.

What is your problem with the author's specific statements about what to do with the Lord's prayer? Is it just that you object to the term 'visualization'?
Use visualization with the Lord's prayer
To open up new spiritual worlds .
That is all thank you good bye.
 
Mar 17, 2021
425
120
43
If Ezekiel worshiped during his vision-- recorded in the Bible, would you call that idolatry.

I am wary if people who make a bunch of junk up and call that doctrine. The Bible says not to make a graven image and bow down to it. There are no warnings against thinking in pictures when you pray. Today many people think in pictures. I assume this was the case in times past, especially among people who spent less time reading.
It was the OP's comment: "Opening up a new spiritual world" that firmly suggests New Age spirituallty.

When I have written plays, I have "seen" the action like a video playing in my mind. But this is not rising to a new "spiritual plane". It is just imagining what they play would look like on the stage. It is not wrong to mediate on the Word through word and pictures. The problem is conjuring up an image of God or Jesus and worshiping it.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,438
245
63
This is really disturbing sights at progressive churches and I believe it's an unwise handling of matters that makes a bad testimony (whatever is being taught) that distracts people. Not to mention this common scene of a group of max 15 people gathered in a small locale and they're yet having a sound speaker system with a guy shouting in a microphone. The worldly sounding top of the pops for the day style of music was already mentioned, anything but relaxing and calm.
Perhaps noise/volume equals power. Or maybe noise/volume hides the fact that there is no power present.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,438
245
63
I remember going to church without OHPs and then when these things started to be added. We relied a lot on hymnals back then, but sang choruses. I think it is a lot like driving a GPS. If you don't have one, you learn directions fast. If you do have one, it can take a lot longer to learn the route. It's kind of a crutch. I am not anti-screen myself, though. I do like everyone being able to see the Bible on the page if it is used that way.

I went to a church for a little while where the volume was ridiculously bad. I finally got the sound guy to turn it down when I pointed out the decibels might hurt a baby's ears that was placed in the front. I wore cotton in my ears for a while so I could hear and gave cotton to family members. It was ridiculous. The pastor was telling the sound guy to do it. He didn't seem to be deaf when you calked to him, and he was young. And right at the end, when the pastor wanted to emphasize the end of the message, he told the sound guy to crank up the sound, and sometimes I couldn't make out what he was saying anymore. Maybe the sound was quiet on stage. The pastor got lots of feedback that the sound was too loud. I think some people left over that.

Something I don't care for is the practice of playing some kind of gospel or CCM mood music at the end of a sermon, during an 'altar call' or whatever they say at the end. Many years ago the doctor me my hearing was normal 'for my age.' Maybe young folks could make it out, but I've been in situations where the sound wasn't perfect, and the preacher was trying to present the gospel at the end, but I could hardly make out what he was saying over the music.

I have heard a lot of background music during movies and TV shows-- fiction designed to manipulate our emotions. When I hear it during a sermon used like that, IMO, it can give off an air of fakeness, of a lack of seriousness. That's not what is intended. But in my opinion, it is often a distraction, and it can make it harder for seniors to hear.
I wore cotton in my ears for a while so I could hear and gave cotton to family members. It was ridiculous.

Obviously, you cottoned on very quickly.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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The answer for you would be to further educate yourself on the New Age movement.
@crossnote also
Be wise to what is good and simple concerning evil, Paul said.

Judge doctrine by the word of God, not by similarity to New Age or a million other religions.

Why do you have expertise in New Age?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,595
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@crossnote also
Be wise to what is good and simple concerning evil, Paul said.

Judge doctrine by the word of God, not by similarity to New Age or a million other religions.

Why do you have expertise in New Age?
Why do I have expertise in the New Age?
Maybe because that was the pit Jesus dug me out of and consequently I am more sensitive to it when it rears it's 'spiritual cackles'.
(After all, God has gifted each of us differently).

Paul also said...

Ephesians 6:11 (NASB) Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

So as we clothe ourselves with the light of God's Word, the lies of the enemy become readily apparent.

Again Paul...

2 Timothy 2:23-26 (KJV) But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

And again...

so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.
(2Co 2:11)
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
Maybe. Seriously, we need to go to the bottom of this and ask from where this culture originates.
If you are referring to the praise band stuff, it originated in revivalism. Which is to say that the atmosphere is created to induce an emotive response to the message and cause someone to make a decision for Jesus. It really is rooted in very bad theology, and it borders on idolatry, because it depends on the human effort to create an atmosphere that emotionally manipulates people into making a decision rather than depending the Holy Spirit who inhabits the Gospel to convict and convince and draw people to the Lord.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
5,115
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My point has been 'what is the source and impetus of the visualization?' Self or God's Word?
You are giving examples where it is God's Word.
The source of Christian visualization is scripture. You can memorize scripture and memorize evil, we are not to discount memorizing because it can be used by evil. You can meditate on scripture or meditate on "ummmmm", we are not to discount meditation of scripture because it can be used in a wrong way.

This post that was to speak of Christian visualization has been turned by evil ones into visualization that is not Christian. Many seem to be helping the evil one work. It should stop.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,595
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This post that was to speak of Christian visualization has been turned by evil ones into visualization that is not Christian. Many seem to be helping the evil one work. It should stop.
I wouldn't go so far as to describe your brothers and sisters in Christ as 'evil ones'.
Where this post went awry is when the OP used a term commonly used by mystics and the New Age and tried applying it to Christian practice without warning the readers from the outset the difference between the two uses. If you don't know the difference, there isn't much more I can say.