Walking By The Spirit

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Jun 15, 2020
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Aren't you the one who has told us that (bold/underline mine):

"The second is the Patriarchal administration. It was the time after the fall from the Garden of Eden, but before the Law was given. This second administration ended with the coming of the Law to Moses.
...

These different administrations are suited to different times because God has spoken everything to its proper time and administration. We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we read into one administration what God tells us belongs to another administration. If we believe what God said in one administration and carry it into another administration that was on a different principle, we will be taking what is true for one time, and using it to contradict what is also true for another time. When we mix them all together, by jumbling the whole Bible together: Law, Gospel, Grace, Judgment, Glory, Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God, we will be very confused in our understanding of the truth of God’s Word."
[link]

So you want to take a truth that was written to a certain time period, apply it to yourself, and thereby do exactly what you warn is not to be done.

Not only that, but those who lived during the time before Moses received not the promise (Heb 11:39). So if you are going to apply Rom 5:13 to yourself, do you take on the whole of what was available in the time period before Moses, when what is available in our day and time is the fullness of all that the Lord Jesus Christ provides for us NOW? Just something for you to think about ...





We are wholly incapable of "changing [ our ] mind".

In Romans 12, we are instructed to present your bodies a living sacrifice to God (vs 1) and be not conformed to this world (vs 2). That's our part.

Then, we are transformed by the renewing of your mind (vs 2). That's God's part. The word "transformed" is the verb ... the action. And in the Greek this verb is passive which means the subject (the believer) is the recipient of the action. And God transforms us by the renewing of your mind. And the renewing of your mind is a noun.

So, understanding the verbs in Rom 12:1-2, Who is it that changes our mind from "carnal" to "the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:16)? Is it us? Or is it God? I'll go with God. He is much more capable of effecting the change than I am.

If I do the changing, it is nothing more than going from one carnal thought to another ... all the while thinking I am going from worse to better. carnal is carnal.





Yes, you have explained this process more than once.

In Ephesians 4:22 we are instructed to put off concerning the former conversation, the old man. This is something we do.

In verse 23, it says and be renewed in the spirit of your mind. This "renewed" is a verb. However, it is passive ... which means the subject (the believer) is the recipient of the action.

So as we "put off the old man", we are the recipients of the renewed in the spirit of your mind. Again, the renewal of our mind is what is received when we put off the old man.

Then verse 24 ... and that ye put on the new man.


Now, getting back to your point that the noun of Rom 12:2 is the same as the verb in Eph 4:23. Why not just let Rom 12:2 be as God intends and let Eph 4:23 be as God intends? Isn't that a more worthy endeavor than changing God's Word to conform to an idea we think is good? To me, replacing Rom 12:2 with Eph 4:23 is not good workmanship.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
What part of this "renewed mind" do we see different? It seems to me I see the same thing you do. That we can change our mind in Romans and God gave us a new nature in Ephesians.

Note: I replaced Romans 12:2 with Ephesians 4:23 because I did not know you yet and therefore was not able to have you tell me they were two different Greek words. And I missed that even in the English one is "renewed" and the other is "renewing."
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Romans 5:13 says "...sin is not imputed when there is no law."
Romans 5:13 says For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

why are you arguing about this, Peterlag? You whine and moan and groan when you believe someone has taken your words out of context ... and then you rip words from Scripture out of the context within which they sit in order to prop up your assertion. Go find another verse to support your statement that "Everything is about being sinless because there's no sin in Christ and his righteousness" - Post #56. Surely you can find other verses in Scripture which are on point without reducing God's Word (specifically Rom 5:13) to the whim of subjective interpretation of the reader.




Peterlag said:
1.) There was no Law with the second which was the Patriarchal administration. It was the time after the fall from the Garden of Eden, but before the Law was given. This second administration ended with the coming of the Law to Moses.
yes ... so why is it proper for you to apply to yourself what is written in Romans which clearly falls within the timeframe of "after the fall from the Garden of Eden, but before the Law was given"?




Peterlag said:
2.) There is no Law with the fifth that started on the day of Pentecost as recorded in the second chapter of the book of Acts. This is the present administration of Grace that is for the Church of God. It's the time period you and I now belong to because it's the Grace administration, without any distinction made between the Jew and the Gentile, which will end with the appearing of Jesus Christ.
Scripture clearly indicates that born again believers are under New Covenant wherein God promises to put His laws into our mind, and write them in our hearts. So it's not that there is "no law". It's that God's laws are in our minds and in our hearts ... our capacity to overcome the sin which so easily besets us is greater because He Who knew no sin dwells within us. He helps us to overcome.




 
Mar 23, 2016
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What part of this "renewed mind" do we see different? It seems to me I see the same thing you do. That we can change our mind in Romans and God gave us a new nature in Ephesians.
We can't change our mind. that's the whole point.

What we can do and what we are instructed to do:

present our bodies a living sacrifice unto God. We no longer bring a dead sacrifice to God ... we give ourselves to God

not conform ourselves to this age


What God works in us when we present ourselves to Him and when we do not conform ourselves to this age:

He transforms us ... He works within us. How does He transform (verb) us? By the renewing (noun) of our mind (noun)


We do not renew our mind ... we present our bodies to God and He works within us.



 
Jun 15, 2020
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We can't change our mind. that's the whole point.

What we can do and what we are instructed to do:

present our bodies a living sacrifice unto God. We no longer bring a dead sacrifice to God ... we give ourselves to God

not conform ourselves to this age


What God works in us when we present ourselves to Him and when we do not conform ourselves to this age:

He transforms us ... He works within us. How does He transform (verb) us? By the renewing (noun) of our mind (noun)


We do not renew our mind ... we present our bodies to God and He works within us.
I'm here...

Very few Christians know who they are in the spirit because most of us have been taught by our religious leaders that we are sinners by nature. And in my view that is just the opposite of what the Scriptures teach.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

It's not the body, but the spirit that has become a new creature. In other words, it's in the spirit that we have become a brand-new species of being because our spirit is totally new and therefore there is not an old sin nature left in us.

I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. It now seems clear to me that this concept of what the Christians believe today is not what the Scriptures teach.

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ. It’s dead and gone because it does not exist anymore. We become totally new in our spirit when we are born again, and this is how our old nature has been completely changed.
 
Jun 15, 2020
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Hello Peterlag, perhaps I am misunderstanding your meaning and/or intent, but I can understand why our "religious leaders" teach what they do about our fallen nature, as there seems to be some pretty solid Biblical ground for doing so. For instance:

Psalm 51
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Romans 3
9 Both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Ephesians 2
1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were ~by nature~ children of wrath, even as the rest.

For those of us who God has regenerated and made alive spiritually .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; Ephesians 2:4-5, we are commanded to set aside the old man/old self and put on the new man/new self, so in a very real sense, God has given us a new nature "spiritually", but all of us Christians were "by nature, children of wrath", as the Apostle makes clear for us, yes :unsure:

~Deut

Ephesians 4
22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds;
24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Very few Christians know who they are in the spirit because most of us have been taught by our religious leaders that we are sinners by nature. And in my view that is just the opposite of what the Scriptures teach.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

It's not the body, but the spirit that has become a new creature. In other words, it's in the spirit that we have become a brand-new species of being because our spirit is totally new and therefore there is not an old sin nature left in us.

I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. It now seems clear to me that this concept of what the Christians believe today is not what the Scriptures teach.

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ. It’s dead and gone because it does not exist anymore. We become totally new in our spirit when we are born again, and this is how our old nature has been completely changed.
 
Jun 15, 2020
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Romans 5:13 says For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

why are you arguing about this, Peterlag? You whine and moan and groan when you believe someone has taken your words out of context ... and then you rip words from Scripture out of the context within which they sit in order to prop up your assertion. Go find another verse to support your statement that "Everything is about being sinless because there's no sin in Christ and his righteousness" - Post #56. Surely you can find other verses in Scripture which are on point without reducing God's Word (specifically Rom 5:13) to the whim of subjective interpretation of the reader.





yes ... so why is it proper for you to apply to yourself what is written in Romans which clearly falls within the timeframe of "after the fall from the Garden of Eden, but before the Law was given"?





Scripture clearly indicates that born again believers are under New Covenant wherein God promises to put His laws into our mind, and write them in our hearts. So it's not that there is "no law". It's that God's laws are in our minds and in our hearts ... our capacity to overcome the sin which so easily besets us is greater because He Who knew no sin dwells within us. He helps us to overcome.
Okay here's a few...

Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

1 John 3 & 5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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It's not the body, but the spirit that has become a new creature. In other words, it's in the spirit that we have become a brand-new species of being because our spirit is totally new and therefore there is not an old sin nature left in us.
The new creation within is housed in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us (2 Cor 4:7).

And while the new creation within is more than capable of following the Lord Jesus Christ, at times this earthen vessel is influenced by the world, by habits built up over years, by emotions, by lusts. We are to bring our habits, emotions, lusts under the control of the new creation within. And we are not always successful in doing this ... especially when we are first born again and just beginning our walk in faith in the Lord. Over time, we learn to walk in the Lord ... learn to pay attention to His leading. This is the maturing process each born again one goes through. And the maturing process continues throughout the whole of our lifetime on this earth, beginning at the time we are born again. God continues to work in His children. And He will finish His work.




Peterlag said:
I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.
Actually it is the core (the inward man) where the change takes place and as God starts working within us, what begins on the inside becomes revealed outwardly ... little by little that spark of light burns and increases over time to the point where it shines through the earthen vessel in which it is housed. And sometimes we resist God because we don't want to let go of things He wants us to let go of. This does not eradicate the light, but the flesh overshadows and the light does not shine as brightly as it should or could.




Peterlag said:
Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. It now seems clear to me that this concept of what the Christians believe today is not what the Scriptures teach.
I do not know that all Christians believe they are alive to sin. I and other believers also know that Scripture gives warning.

Why does God tell us in Ephesians that we are to put away lying (Eph 4:25) ... don't give place to the devil (Eph 4:27) ... no corrupt communication out of our mouth (Eph 4:29) ... grieve not the Holy Spirit of God (Eph 4:30) ... put away bitterness, wrath, anger, and clamour, evil speaking, malice (Eph 4:31)?

This is written to those who are faithful in Christ Jesus (Eph 1:1) and this is only one example of warning written to us in our day and time. I can give other examples of God warning the born again believer.

Yes, the born again one is to walk in all the fullness of blessing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, we have what is needed in order to overcome the wiles of the devil who walks about as a roaring lion seeking to devour. Yes, we with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. And all of this takes place in this earthen vessel ... which sometimes is weak and succumbs to the pressure and we are drawn away from the Lord.




Peterlag said:
Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ. It’s dead and gone because it does not exist anymore. We become totally new in our spirit when we are born again, and this is how our old nature has been completely changed.
On the one hand, you claim "we experience a death to our old sin nature" and say "it's dead and gone because it does not exist anymore".

On the other hand, you claim "this is how our old nature has been completely changed".

So which is it? Is the old nature "dead and gone"? Is the old nature "completely changed"?

It can't be changed and gone at the same time.

It's either gone, eradicated, no longer exists.

Or it is changed.


I believe it is changed so that it no longer holds power. I believe it is to be under submission to the new man which is created in righteousness and true holiness. And the old is to be reckoned under submission to the new. However, the tendencies, the habits built up over time, the emotions, which are all inherent in our flesh sometimes flare up and we do not follow the Lord and instead follow our own ways. That's just the nature of who we were in Adam.

And, when we find we have strayed from following the Lord, the moment we realize we have been drawn away, we are to turn our hearts back to the Lord ... put off the old ... put on the new ...

God gives good instruction and warnings. It's best to pay attention to both the instruction and the warning. imho ...



 
Mar 23, 2016
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Okay here's a few...

Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

1 John 3 & 5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.
better ... just don't use Rom 5:13 as support for your claim because that is not proper handling of Scripture. Use the verses God intended and you and the hearers of your message will be much better served.



 
Mar 28, 2016
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What part of this "renewed mind" do we see different? It seems to me I see the same thing you do. That we can change our mind in Romans and God gave us a new nature in Ephesians.

Note: I replaced Romans 12:2 with Ephesians 4:23 because I did not know you yet and therefore was not able to have you tell me they were two different Greek words. And I missed that even in the English one is "renewed" and the other is "renewing."
It could be the part that he who began renewing it will continue to until the last day as in no righteous of ones own .

Some have a different self confidence.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The foolish Galatians that said there is no god in their hearts. they leaned If has begun the good hearing of faith in us he will give us his understanding that works in us with us all the way to the end . Some murmur and desire to be found with a righteousness of their own.

Galatians 3 King James Version (KJV) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?