Warning! Catholic church is a FALSE religion

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NazariteNation

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Come on guys, all of this nitpicking is getting ridiculous. We can argue over the interpretation of scripture for months over this issue and not make any progress. The truth is that your relationship with God is just like any other true loving relationship that you may encounter. (Why? because God made it that way as a reminder to us!)

Any healthy relationship requires love and respect from both parties. A one sided relationship is doomed to breakdown and fail. It is just as true with your relationship with God as it is with your wife or children. How do we know this? Because it is the central theme throughout the entire bible, Old & New Testaments, and to say other wise is to add to the scriptures which know is a violation of scripture.
 

Test_F_i_2_Luv

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2009
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Test F i 2 Luv wrote:
Baptism - So Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglicans - all who insist
on infant baptism - aren't Christians? Infant baptism and adult baptisms
are both mentioned in the Scriptures. While I am not a proponent of
infant baptism myself, the issue can be argued either way. Some
protestants demand baptism after conversion. Is that not a form of
"works"?

Penance - Similar to what we protestants refer to as repentance. Our
confession of sins is not supposed to be just a one time thing. People
like to quote 1 John 1:9, but they don't seem to realize the verb tense
indicates an ongoing confession. If we don't continue to repent, is our
faith true? If we do continue to repent, is that not a type of work?

Eucharist - Somewhat similar to our protestant communion, with a major
difference being that we treat it as symbolic rather than believing we
are literally eating Christ. This is an issue where I am also very
critical of the RCC. Despite my critical viewpoint on the Eucharist, I'm
far from convinced that all RCs are non-Christian.

If a person is born-again, but lives his/her life without reading or
meditating on the Scriptures, praying, fellowshipping with believers, or
proclaiming the gospel, is he/she a Christian? If he/she does do all of
this, don't they qualify as works?

Faith without works is dead. Works without faith is worthless.

Baptistrw responded:
Infant baptism is NEVER mentioned in the Scriptures in any place.
Baptism after salvation is a step of obedience in allowing one to
display publicly their unity in Christ via His death, burial, and
resurrection, an infant a few days old cannot believe the gospel.
Repentance and Penance are far different. Penance requires good deeds to
pay for the bad, repentance is changing ones mind about sin. The
eucharist is the reoffering of Christ for sins, which is blasphemy
because Christ was offered once for all Hebrews 10:10. I have never met
a Catholic who was Christian, the taking of the mass is a work that a
catholic believes will ultimately save them, as their cathechism will
show.

Test F i 2 Luv response:
Infant baptism is NEVER mentioned in the Scriptures in any place. Let's
assume you're right. The canon is complete around 100 A.D. Name a
specific church or specific individual who didn't teach infant baptism
between 100 AD and 1550 AD or so. I think you'll be hard pressed to
find individuals who promoted only adult baptism in the church for the
first 1450 years AD.

The problem that arises is that the RCC, Eastern Orthodox, and Coptic Churches are
the main ones that existed for the first 1500 years of the church. Even after Lutheranism came around through the Reformation,
the theology of infant baptism remained. All of these denominations taught/practiced infant baptism. You seem to assume they pull their theology out of
the air for the first 1500+ years of the church. I flat out disagree with their
theology, but at least understand it wasn't completely baseless. You point your
finger at the RCC and say it's not a Christian church because of it's position on,
among other things, baptism. There are a number of other churches that should be
getting pointed at as well; essentially any that existed for the first 1500 years of
Christianity's existence.

There are a couple passages in the scriptures that discuss baptism and
refer to families. Acts 16:15 and 1 Cor 1:16 both refer to "households"
being baptized. The passages don't go into details about who lives in these
households, either. There is no indication that all were adults, there
is no indication that there were children. These passages are among those used by
churches(RCC, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Lutherans) that promote/practice infant baptism, though.

Repentance and Penance are far different. Penance requires good deeds to
pay for the bad, repentance is changing ones mind about sin.
You like
to refer to the Catechism. CCC 1430-1460 will explain the RCCs position
on this issue. You need to have a version of the catechism that
contains the footnotes because the footnotes give Biblical references in
support of RC theology.

The eucharist is the reoffering of Christ for sins, which is blasphemy
because Christ was offered once for all Hebrews 10:10.
They consider it to be a
single, perpetual sacrifice. CCC 1366-1367. While the RCC teaches
transubstantiation, other older churches teach consubstantiation. This
would also be a form of cannibalism, which you complained about with
RCs in post 41. Why aren't you booting the Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, and Lutheran
churches as non-Christian for their doctrine of consubstantiation, which also would
be a form of cannibalism?

I have never met a Catholic who was Christian... You've apparently met
a lot of nominal RCs. I know I have. Fortunately, I've become familiar with a few
good ones as well. My experience is that a lot of RCs misunderstand their own
faith. But, so do a lot of protestants. Too many RCs think they can earn
salvation. Unfortunately, too many protestants aren't in any better shape, thinking
that being baptized in a particular church as an infant is all that they need to
have eternal security. Then there are those who claim to make a commitment to Jesus
Christ as Lord and Savior but never demonstrate a transformed mind/heart. Truth is,
there are problems in all the denominations.


...the taking of the mass is a work that a catholic believes will
ultimately save them, as their cathechism will show.
RCs go to mass,
they don't "tak[e] of the mass". Whereas a protestant would probably
say "I'm going to church" or "I'm going to the morning/evening service",
RCs say "I'm going to mass". At mass, they take the Eucharist. The
taking of the Eucharist is the high point of the mass and, really, the
high point in the RC walk. Like the other sacraments, communion is
aimed at keeping them on the path to salvation and to helping them grow
in their faith. It is also the high-point of their unity with Christ.
The catechism doesn't tell them that mass or the Eucharist will save
them. I recommend people read the catechism to see what it actually
says on the Eucharist. CCC 1322-1344 discusses it. In this portion of the
catechism is a section(labeled "III") called "The Eucharist in the Economy of
Salvation". Interestingly, aside from the section header, the word "salvation"
doesn't appear in the paragraphs of the section. The word "saved" doesn't appear in those paragraphs either.
 
Jan 9, 2009
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It looks to me like it is about time for this thread to be closed. This is starting to look more and more to me like bashing the Catholic church and not like bible studying or fellowshipping. If you don't like a particular demonination just LET IT GO!
Right or wrong, The Catholic church, as well as every other church is where somebody will go to worship the Lord how they want to.
 
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Porphyrios

Guest
I am sorry I haven't read through the entire post, but Catholics (and Orthodox) do not worship Mary. We worship God alone. Its hard to understand because of the limitations of the English language in describing our relationship with the Theotokos (Mary). We venerate her, and respect her greatly just as the angel did in scripture when he says blessed art thou amongst women. We ask her to pray for us, much like any of you might ask your neighbor to pray for you. We revere her because she was Christ's mother in His earthly life and He has given her to us to be our mother as well , when He told the Apostle John to take her as his mother when He was on the cross (Gospel of John). Its not true that we came around in the 4th century, even the later epistles (like Timothy) show a similarity between us and the early Church , not to mention other documents like the Epistles of Clement or the Didache , both of which date to the 1st century. Many websites exist on the internet that like to mis represent what Catholics and Orthodox believe. One should read from first hand sources so as to not be lied to. If anyone is interested in some sources I would gladly provide some.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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What are the benefits of asking Mary to pray for you , that cannot be obtained by asking Jesus Christ alone?

Do you think that Jesus is so lacking love and unwilling to answer prayer that you have to ask His Mother?

Is there any verifiable evidence that asking Mary to help achieves greater results than not? e.g. do Catholics receive faster and more miraculous answers to prayer than Protestants?
 

Josh

Banned
May 30, 2008
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I dont think they do. Moreso Jesus when He was left at the temple at the age of 12 she never regarded her as mother she said woman.
More so mary is not (biologically) and in anyway can claim Jesus coz she never produced anything for the formation of Jesus.
God created that body in her womb just as He did to Adam. She was just a bedding ground and praying thro her to me i think is idolatory.
There before in this post was claimed that Peter the Apostle was the first pope and he begun the Catholic church i dont agree no reject,
But can a true catholic tell me this:
Is it true that a pope cant make a mistake?
Is it true that his words cannot be collected neither by another pope?
And that his word are final?
Then if so be:
Who changed the words of Peter in Acts 2:38 on the way to get saved.
If peter (the first pope) believes in what Paul tought why then dont your priest marry when Paul said a bishop be married in
2 Tim 3.
 
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dutchpuppy

Guest
I am not Catholic, but two of the most inspirational and faithful people I ever met were. I agree with the post that we should close this thread and quit the nitpicking.

It all comes down to our relationship with God. Look at the fruit...not meaning that works are enough, but how the Bible meant it.
 
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Porphyrios

Guest
Mahogony snail, do you ask your neighbors, friends, relatives, etc. to pray for you? We as the saints and Mary to pray for us because they are our friends and Christ's friends since they have gone to be with Him in heaven. We pray to the Holy Trinity all the time as well as ask saints to pray for us to the Triune God. We don't worship the saints, we venerate or hold them in high esteem. We worship God alone. There are many miracles attributed to asking the Theokotos' intercession(Mary's intercession, theokotoks is greek for God-bearer since she bore God in the womb).

Christ's calling his mother woman, was to establish a parrallel between her and Eve. Since Eve was called simply woman before the fall. Mary is the new Eve.
Peter was the first Pope, but he didn't "found" the Church. Christ founded our Church. Pope's can make mistakes. The teaching of Papal infalibility is a very limited and requires very very strict circumstances for it to occur. No one changed Acts of the Apostles. What Peter says in that passage is true. Our Bishops were at one time married, but over time it became the practice to have celibate Bishops. In the eastern churches, our Bishops began to be selected from among the monastic clergy, since monastics are celibate so are our Bishops. In that circumstance , Paul is discussing a discipline for his time, not an unchanging truth of the faith that is universal for all times. Eastern canidates for the priesthood can be married still.
 
Jan 9, 2009
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There is one good thing we can say about the Catholic church: We need them for all the scarey movies. I mean; Can you picture a movie like The Exorsist being made with Southern Baptists? Somehow It just wouldn't work. Not for me anyway. ROFL:rolleyes:
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Mahogony snail, do you ask your neighbors, friends, relatives, etc. to pray for you? We as the saints and Mary to pray for us because they are our friends and Christ's friends since they have gone to be with Him in heaven. We pray to the Holy Trinity all the time as well as ask saints to pray for us to the Triune God. We don't worship the saints, we venerate or hold them in high esteem. We worship God alone. There are many miracles attributed to asking the Theokotos' intercession(Mary's intercession, theokotoks is greek for God-bearer since she bore God in the womb).

But you don't even know if Mary has even heard your request. At least asking a live person they will say "yes I'll pray for you". Has Mary or any saint said that to you?

Personally if I was Mary, I'd want to be left alone in peace in heaven, not bombarded daily with millions of petitions. Think about it.

I also question the claim that Catholics don't worship Mary. Because statues of Mary, the name of Mary, is literally everywhere in catholicism and her name is heard, read, or seen much more frequently than the name of Jesus.

As I said, what do you think Mary can do that Jesus can't? Mary never died on a cross, so Jesus who did die on a cross for us is far more loving , compassionate, caring and willing to hear and help us than Mary could ever be.
 
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Porphyrios

Guest
I don't understand why one can't do both. Pray to Mary and offer Worship to God. I find personal testimony a little odd, but yes I do believe my petitions I asked Mary to pray for me have been answered and likewise so have petitions to other saints. I am sorry you feel that you'd want to be left alone in heaven, rather then helping your christian brothers and sisters who are still on earth in need of God's grace by interceding for them. How do you question the claim that we don't worship Mary? Are you Catholic? Do you read (and I mean really read) authoritative Catholic material? Do you attend Divine Liturgy or Mass? You know in the western Mass you will be lucky to hear Mary's name mentioned outside of the Creed (where its only a statement of her role as God's mother). I am a Catholic and I can tell you we do not worship Mary. Worship is for God alone.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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I don't understand why one can't do both. Pray to Mary and offer Worship to God. I find personal testimony a little odd, but yes I do believe my petitions I asked Mary to pray for me have been answered and likewise so have petitions to other saints.
It's just that from my observance, non-catholics get by fine without petitioning the saints or Mary. Jesus Christ hears our prayers, and answers. I wondered what special benefit or advantage this gives catholics who pray to Mary over non-catholics who don't?

Do you truly believe that Christ is so unwilling to hear and answer your prayers directly that you feel you have to appeal to his mother since her prayers carry more "weight"? Or don't you realise that if you are a christian you are a son or daughter of God and have direct access to the Father through Christ alone?


I am sorry you feel that you'd want to be left alone in heaven, rather then helping your christian brothers and sisters who are still on earth in need of God's grace by interceding for them.
Would you like to be petitioned every day by millions of people? I thought heaven is a place of rest. I don't know how you can believe Mary is resting in heaven, whilst also believing she receives and answers millions of prayers a day including your own. Or haven't you thought about the practicalities of your beliefs? Perhaps if you truly honor and venerate Mary you might give the Dear Lady a break?
Mary may only have time to pray for 100 people a day , what is to guarantee that your prayers out of the millions offered to Mary, are heard and answered in your life time?


How do you question the claim that we don't worship Mary? Are you Catholic? Do you read (and I mean really read) authoritative Catholic material? Do you attend Divine Liturgy or Mass? You know in the western Mass you will be lucky to hear Mary's name mentioned outside of the Creed (where its only a statement of her role as God's mother). I am a Catholic and I can tell you we do not worship Mary. Worship is for God alone.
You claim not to worship Mary but why is the name of Mary mentioned more than Jesus? Why the veneration of statues? Why do you all flock to see an image of Mary on a piece of burnt toast for example? I know the Catholic's idea of worship is skewed as well, because it is associated with the mass. But prayer is a type of worship, veneration is a type of worship, images of, statues of, singing about a person..is worship. One or two of these on occasion may be OK..but Mary is everywhere in catholicism. It is strange to hear you say you don't worship her.
 
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roaringkitten

Guest
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..." Exodus 20:4-5

I dont write threads because I like debating. I write these type of threads because I love people and if I feel by God's Word that ANY belief system is not according to Scripture, I must reprove it!

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." Ephesians 5:11


"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20
 
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Porphyrios

Guest
Mahoganysnail, what benefit do you get out of asking your neighbors , friends, etc to pray for you? What graces do you get from the prayers of your family members that you couldn't get by praying to Christ yourself?

No good Catholic will flock to a piece of toast that looks like Mary, that is just ridiculous superstition. Many radical protestants have similarly strange or superstitious practices. Worship is associated with the Mass or Divine Liturgy because that is where we enter into the Real Presence of Christ. Its the closest we get physically to Our Lord in this lifetime. Veneration is a type of worship, buts it not the same type of Worship as that is given to Christ. As I said, its ambiguous in the english language, but no so in Latin and Greek. As I said, in Mass western Catholics barely mention Mary, and in the eastern Byzantine liturgies we do mention Mary, but we mention the Holy Trinity far far more often. When you say its strange to hear that we do not worship her, you are basically playing with words to make it sound like these other "types of worship " (which each have their own word in Latin and Greek) are the same thing as worship given to God, which they aren't.


As for images, statues, Icons etc. Our veneration of them is a way of asking the saints portrayed for prayers. The Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament was adorned with four cherubim statues, to give an OT example of the practice.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Why need Mary at all? What's wrong with appealing to Jesus only, you think He is deaf?
The point is that you can really know for sure that your friends,family hear your request and pray for you. You can even pray with them in a group. But you can't with Mary because she is dead. You can only believe that she hears, when she may not. Same goes for any saint.

Were the four cherubim statues in the Old Testament venerated by the Israelites in similar way to how Catholics venerate statues or images of saints or Mary or even Jesus?

You've said yourself that veneration is a type of worship. It's worship all the same. It seems like you are fumbling around trying to explain the difference between what you call true worship in the mass, and this lesser type of worship called veneration. But the fact remains veneration of any image or statue is worship. I think if you were honest you would say that "yes you worship Mary". It is plainly obvious to me that catholics do.
 
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Porphyrios

Guest
Its plainly obvious to me that you are choosing not to read what I am saying. In the english language, the word worship has a much broader use then in other ancient languages like Latin and Greek. In those languages there are specific words for the veneration of saints and images that are not interchangeable with the word for worship of God.

Mary and the Saints are not dead, but alive in Christ. God is not the God of the dead. You still haven't answered why you don't forget asking your friends to pray for you, aren't your prayers to Jesus enough? Why bother asking your friends to pray for you, you don't even know if they ARE praying for you when you ask them, its your faith in them that lets you accept that they are really following your request for prayers.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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If they say they are praying but aren't then they are liars.
But at least they can communicate with you but Mary can't.
 
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pinkcandy

Guest
freemasons r catholic too it all EVIL
 

Test_F_i_2_Luv

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2009
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If Catholics are "all" evil, then Protestants best be exactly the opposite of everything Catholics are.

Scrap the Bible, scrap Jesus Christ, scrap the Trinity, scrap the concept of sin, scrap eternal life - stay away from all this evil!
freemasons r catholic too it all EVIL
 
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