Warning! Catholic church is a FALSE religion

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roaringkitten

Guest
Mahogony.......I am not protestant just so you know right off the bat.....I even find some issues with Protestants too, but that's another thing for another thread....

Concerning your question, you dont need to ask me to answer it! Just line up what their testimony is with the Word. If ANYONE believes their works will get them into heaven, by their testimony they believed another gospel....Thats a very sad fact.
 
M

Miah45

Guest
I love the people, I'm a missionary to them with the desire that they place their faith in Christ alone for salvation, I just hate the evils of the Catholic church as I have said above. They have been and still are the worst persecutors of the Baptist church (since before the reformation til today) but we still work with them.
Well my non-protestant Baptist friend.. although I doubt Catholics are lopping any Baptist Heads off.. I wish you blessing in showing Israel God's unconditional love to them, and that you fair better than Luther in his emissary work to the Jews.

Just remember friend, there's plenty of opportunity to hate in Israel. It's good to get Love, Grace and Mercy right where you are

קול הברכוט
 
Jan 8, 2009
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oh ok. Are you baptist or something. Non denominational. Hare Krishna? (j/k).
 
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roaringkitten

Guest
I align myself with what the baptists believe, but I wouldn't label myself as such....
 
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suaso

Guest
I am Suaso! hahaha. Mahogany is right. Catholicism isn't just a religion, it is a culture. It is who I am as much as what I am. Sort of like with Jews. Only Jews make way better stand up comedians than we do, and they got a way cool langauge all to their own. But when you want a decent plate of lasagna...you know where to come :D
 
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roaringkitten

Guest
Catholicism isn't just a religion, it is a culture.

Catholicism teaches a works gospel and is a road straight to the lake of fire if catholics believe in their good works to save them(even partly in their works)....I say this in sadness in the hope many would turn to the truth! All it takes is a realization that we are vile sinners before God deserving of hellfire and trusting Jesus to save you! That is it! FAITH. No works will and can save anyone! It is not partly works and partly grace, it is 100% on the merits of Christ! Jesus will help clean up your lives....I have read many testimonies of former catholics who escaped the roman catholic religon because they realized it was a trap and prisonhouse religion! I am here to warn the catholics! Not because I enjoy tearing down their beliefs, but because I can see clearly the trap that many are in! If I see someone heading off a cliff I have to warn them....That is what I see the roman catholic church as! Im as vile a sinner as any other person. I dont consider myself higher than anyone on here.....I am the exact opposite...I seek no praise, I only seek to warn people of the dangers of this catholic system because I love your souls!!!
 
P

Porphyrios

Guest
Works don't bring salvation, it is an aligning of one's self to God's will. Perhaps that is a better explanation for you. That is the essence of what the Church teaches in regards to works and faith. Its meant so that rather then us living, Christ might live with in us.
 
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suaso

Guest
While I appreciate the genuine concern you have for my soul (and I really do), I have to be fair and tell you that I have read the Bible. I have asked the Holy Spirit to guide me. I have gone from luke-warm faith, to neo-paganism, to flat out bitter atheism with a passionate hatred for God, and have been lead out of that hate and contempt for Christ. I was lead out of such hatred by the grace and mercy of God, who through the Holy Spirit, has lead me to Christ by means of the Catholic Church. Everything that has been said against the Catholic Church here completely and totally conflicts with the reality of my personal experience within the Church, my studies of the Church ( I am majoring in Theology. I really understand what the Church teaches and why it does as it does), my relationship with Christ, etc. Never in my whole life can I say that I have felt so close to me, so truly within my heart of hearts, the abiding love of our Savior. Never. The truth is that you have, in your experience, met people whom you claimed have "escaped Catholicism." Well, I aslo have met people who have "escaped" the same sort of thinking which you exhibit toward the Catholic Church to join it. As I said before to another, this proves nothing except that people are completely free to do as they wish, and we can't juge the Catholic Church or your understanding of Christianity based upon which side has lost/gained the most converts from the other. I will never leave my faith and would quite honestly prefer to die than renounce it.
 

Test_F_i_2_Luv

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2009
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MahogonySnail: All cults have their own version of the bible. So do Catholics.

Test_F_i_2_luv: Ok, since giving an example of Scriptural differences didn't work, now you resort to all but calling them a cult. Until the mid 1800's, all Bibles had the apocrypha, including the KJV. Many of today's popular translations didn't exist. No NIV(1978), no NLT(1996), no NAS(1971), no NRS(1989). Considering how fewer Bible versions existed, and what books were contained in Bibles until 150 years ago, it would seem that all churches were cultic in nature from the time of Christ until after 1850 A.D.

MahogonySnail
: Whilst the apocrypha was in the KJV for example, it was never in there as part of canonised scripture. Yet Catholics I believe went right ahead and canonised some apocrypha?. In fact Catholics can't well support their doctrines without the apocrypha, eg purgatory, the book of Maccabees is it? There's your problem.

The R.C. church is the old Roman Empires or Constantines cult basically. It was, is, or has become a cult. The size , power or history of it shouldn't give us any illusions. Cults are basically centred around these things: Power, greed, money, control, and of course, corruption. Been to the Vatican lately? Marvelous wealth there. Now supposing the R.C. church never existed, and it came on the scene 10 years ago, started by a man called the Pope by his followers, the vicar of Christ , and was given his own piece of ranch farm worth millions of dollars and building very prestigious mansions. He gets around in a little
Pope-mobile and is met and greeted by thousands of His followers, who all scramble for the chance at being blessed by him. He comes out on special occasions for special appearances. Not only that, but this man grants indulgences to people for making the effort to see him or attend events that he supports. He also has his own little army that can persecute whoever opposes him and defend him. You don't think they'd be on the cult-watch list?

That's not to mention the indoctrination (or brainwashing) of followers, the superstitions, the abuses, including violent and downright sick exorcisms, the cannibalism against the Lord's body (belief they are actually eating Christ's body and blood), the over-reliance upon extra-biblical sources (eg non-canonical books, early church writers, angelic or dead saint encounters and visions, mysticisms), the vigorous persecution of its opponents (particularly in past history moreso than today), and of course their exclusiveness, the hallmark of any cult. All cults say they are the "one true" church and that everyone should belong
to them. These things make it closer to a cult than not.

Test_F_i_2_luv: You said "Whilst the apocrypha was in the KJV for example, it was never in there as part of canonised scripture. Yet Catholics I believe went right ahead and canonised some apocrypha?"

The whole issue of the apocrypha predates the KJ Bible by a long shot. The debate on what books were to be in the canon went on for perhaps
200-300 years(until a final declaration around 400 A.D.) after Christ. Some church fathers embraced them, some found them "helpful" but not authoritative, and others rejected them.

Before the printing press was developed Bibles were rare because they had to be hand-written. Prior to the printing press it appears that the apocrypha were not only included in various translations, they were also intermingled within the 49 books of the OT we would agree are inspired. They were generally not set aside or considered non-canononical. The Septuagint, Latin Vulgate(although Jerome himself rejected the apocrypha), and Codex Sinaiticus are among those that include the apocrypha and don't distinguish them from other books of the OT. As far as I know, Codex Alexandrinus, Codex Sinaiticus, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus are the same way. Apocrypha was also found in the Chester Beatty Biblical Papyri, which predates all of the above mentioned works. The Gutenburg Bible came along around the time of the printing press and treats the apocrypha in the same way.

The earliest versions of a complete OT/NT Bible that I am aware of that either separated or distinguished the apocrypha are the Wycliffe(1384) and Coverdale(1535) Bibles.

In short(and leaving out an enormous amount of details which would take a book), the church debated on what would be in the canon until around 400 A.D. and included what we now label as the apocrypha in it's final version. It remained there for over a thousand years until the Reformation. At that time, the apocrypha was questioned again. As a result of the Reformation, it was put in a separate section by protestants and remained there for a few hundred years until it was finally completely removed from various protestant translations sometime in the 1800's.

You said: "In fact Catholics can't well support their doctrines without the apocrypha, eg purgatory, the book of Maccabees is it? There's your problem."

They can support their doctrine without the Apocrypha. The RC concept of purgatory does include II Maccabees, but that's not the full story. You could get a better grip on the issue, though, if you looked at a book written by a Roman Catholic Apologist. An even faster and cheaper route is to visit the Catholic Encyclopedia online. I do not agree with the concept of purgatory either, but RCs don't need Maccabees to support the doctrine.

You said: "The R.C. church is the old Roman Empires or Constantines cult basically."

Be more specific.

The only Constantine that I am aware of that we actually know a considerable amount about is Constantine the Great. If that's the one you're referring to, you've got a cherry picked description of who he was and what he did in Rome. Christians were oppressed before he came to power. He allowed believers to practice their faith far more freely.

He did show favoritism to Christianity and financed the building of churches. There are also records of strange pagan practices that he allowed because he refused to outlaw paganism. That Christians were allowed to practice their faith is something we should take joy in rather than chalking up to cultism.

Interestingly, also, is that it's the Eastern Orthodox that considers Constantine a saint and has canonized him as "equal to the apostles", not the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox even have a feast day for him(May 21st).

You said: "That's not to mention the indoctrination (or brainwashing) of followers...the cannibalism against the Lord's body (belief they are actually eating Christ's body and blood)"

A practice shared in part and or in full by Eastern Orthodox and Lutherans. Since you're labeling RCs as a cult, let's just add Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutherans. Doesn't leave much left for choices of early churches. There must have been very few non-brainwashed people; very few Christians. Add to that the scarcity of Bibles available before the printing press(which limited people's ability to verify what they heard being preached) and the likely illiteracy rate, there must have been very few Christians. Nearly everyone must have been a member of a cult.

You said: "the over-reliance upon extra-biblical sources (eg non-canonical books, early church writers, angelic or dead saint encounters and visions, mysticisms)"

Of all these, the only one I care to address is the early church writers.

I find it interesting and enlightening to understand how Christians in distant centuries understood passages of Scripture. When I hear sermons given in protestant churches, ministers will sometimes reflect on thoughts of ministers from the early 1900's or the 1800's. While some congregation members seem awed by such references to individuals that lived a couple hundred years ago, those centuries are actually very recent. Our roots go back 2,000 years, not 200 years.

We would be in tough shape knowing the process of how our canonized Bible came to be without the early church writers.

You said: "All cults say they are the "one true" church and that everyone should belong to them. These things make it closer to a cult than not."

Name me a well known author that agrees with you.

You really ought to read some books that deal with cults. Doing so would help you in two major ways. First, you'd get a more extensive list of traits that are common among cults. Secondly, you'd be exposed to an overview of actual cults. Here are several books that I have in my library, most of which can be purchased at Christian Book Distributors simply by searching the key word "cult", that can help you on the path to truth:

Cults and the Occult, by Edmond Gruss(Professor Emeritus, The Master's College). 17 chapter, 230 pages. Gruss was a Jehovah's Witness. In his discussion of various cults, he fails to have a chapter on Roman Catholicism.

The Kingdom of the Cults, by Dr Walter Martin(Doctorate in Comparative Religions). Martin knew a bit about the RC Church...he debated with Roman Catholic Apologists before audiences. In this 700 page book, which is the most comprehensive book on cults I am aware of, he mentions Roman Catholics about 3 times on three scattered pages. In those mentions, he doesn't refer to RCs as a cult. That's pretty bad for a 700 page books with 20 chapters and 4 appendixes.

The Deceivers. What Cults Believe, How They Lure Followers. Written by Josh McDowell and Don Stewert. 21 Chapters + 3 appendixes. 311 pages.
Rather than declaring Roman Catholics as a cult, the book lumps Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants in one chapter as Orthodox Christianity.

So What's the Difference, by Fritz Ridenour. 256 pages. This is my least favorite of the books that discuss cults. It has, though, sold over a million copies. This one has Roman Catholicism in chapter two, with Eastern Orthodox listed as chapter three...and both of them listed together as a section referred to as "Other Trunks of the Christian Tree". Chapter one of Ridenour's book is on Protestantism, which he labels as "Biblical Christianity".
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Of all these, the only one I care to address is the early church writers.

I find it interesting and enlightening to understand how Christians in distant centuries understood passages of Scripture. When I hear sermons given in protestant churches, ministers will sometimes reflect on thoughts of ministers from the early 1900's or the 1800's. While some congregation members seem awed by such references to individuals that lived a couple hundred years ago, those centuries are actually very recent. Our roots go back 2,000 years, not 200 years.

We would be in tough shape knowing the process of how our canonized Bible came to be without the early church writers.
Remember early church writers are only some christians. They may not reflect the belief of the majority at the time. Many of the early church writers are a bit off on some areas in their theology, many were basically philosphers, and so were corrupt with man's teachings in some areas.





You said: "All cults say they are the "one true" church and that everyone should belong to them. These things make it closer to a cult than not."

Name me a well known author that agrees with you.

You really ought to read some books that deal with cults. Doing so would help you in two major ways. First, you'd get a more extensive list of traits that are common among cults. Secondly, you'd be exposed to an overview of actual cults. Here are several books that I have in my library, most of which can be purchased at Christian Book Distributors simply by searching the key word "cult", that can help you on the path to truth:

Cults and the Occult, by Edmond Gruss(Professor Emeritus, The Master's College). 17 chapter, 230 pages. Gruss was a Jehovah's Witness. In his discussion of various cults, he fails to have a chapter on Roman Catholicism.

The Kingdom of the Cults, by Dr Walter Martin(Doctorate in Comparative Religions). Martin knew a bit about the RC Church...he debated with Roman Catholic Apologists before audiences. In this 700 page book, which is the most comprehensive book on cults I am aware of, he mentions Roman Catholics about 3 times on three scattered pages. In those mentions, he doesn't refer to RCs as a cult. That's pretty bad for a 700 page books with 20 chapters and 4 appendixes.

The Deceivers. What Cults Believe, How They Lure Followers. Written by Josh McDowell and Don Stewert. 21 Chapters + 3 appendixes. 311 pages.
Rather than declaring Roman Catholics as a cult, the book lumps Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants in one chapter as Orthodox Christianity.

So What's the Difference, by Fritz Ridenour. 256 pages. This is my least favorite of the books that discuss cults. It has, though, sold over a million copies. This one has Roman Catholicism in chapter two, with Eastern Orthodox listed as chapter three...and both of them listed together as a section referred to as "Other Trunks of the Christian Tree". Chapter one of Ridenour's book is on Protestantism, which he labels as "Biblical Christianity".

Just because the R.C church isn't listed in those books doesn't mean it isn't a cult. Often they are too afraid to mention the RC church as a cult because of fear of the repercussions/backlash if they published that.


I don't have those books on hand but there are plenty of internet resources that deal with cults:

Let's take a look at this check list shall we and see how the R.C. as an organisation stacks up:

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

I'd tick the box on that one. The Pope is usually unquestioned in his actions and what he says.



‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

And boy was it punished in past centuaries.
Some today are even torture /abused because they want to leave the church. They may do it under the guise of "exorcism".



‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

Ascetism and similar is frequent in Catholicism. As is chanting etc.




‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).


Sounds like the type of controls the R.C. exhibits over its flock. eg marriage bans for priests. Also teachings on contraceptive devices etc.





‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).


Bingo. R.C. exalts itself above other denominations. The status given to the Pope is cult-like. Whatever the Pope says is taken as gospel, even if it is plainly wrong according to scripture.



‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

That's true of the R.C. church.


‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

how accountable is the Pope and Vatican? hmm.




‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

Maybe this one doesn't apply to R.C church, not sure.


‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

I'm pretty sure this one the R.C church does. The threat of purgatory is often a strong motive for people to do the Pope's bidding to receive indulgences.


‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

Maybe the R.C church doesn't exhibit this one so much.


‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

I think that's true. But also to bring in members of other churches under the umbrella of catholicism.


‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.

True. In the past, indulgences were sold, bribes were accepted , they had church taxes, and persuade people to give up their money and possessions to the church. Nowadays, the Vatican has its own bank and all.


‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

Not sure about that one.



‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

I do know the catholics tend to stick to themselves.

‪ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.


I am sure this type of feeling exists in the R. C church. A number of catholics I have spoken with have this sort of fear or dread of what might happen if they leave the church.
 
P

Porphyrios

Guest
I apologize, but all your objects are based on false premises. I will post a response tomorrow but I must go to sleep now.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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The problem is, that most christian apologetics, research ministries etc, probably like those cult books you mention, are all too quick to put JW's and mormons in a cult.
But the R.C. church has just as many, if not more, extra-biblical beliefs and sources, yet they don't label it as a cult. Why is that?
That's why I thought to make this hypothetical for a moment, ignore the hundreds of years of history and size of the R.C. church, and just consider this:

Now supposing the R.C. church never existed, and it came on the scene 10 years ago, started by a man called the Pope by his followers, the vicar of Christ , and was given his own piece of ranch farm worth millions of dollars and building very prestigious mansions. He gets around in a little
Pope-mobile and is met and greeted by thousands of His followers, who all scramble for the chance at being blessed by him. He comes out on special occasions for special appearances. Not only that, but this man grants indulgences to people for making the effort to see him or attend events that he supports. He also has his own little army that can persecute whoever opposes him and defend him. You don't think they'd be on the cult-watch list?
 
K

kujo313

Guest
6 signs that the R.C. church is (or was) a cult. Sounds pretty convincing to me.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/6SIGNS.htm

Me, too. Spent first 20 years of my life there. My parents got saved before they died so I KNOW where they are now.
I was told to wear a scapular. I was told that if I wore it, Mary's scapular, I would escape Hellfire if I wore it when I died.
I was told to recite the Rosary. Funny, it's all about Mary. Pope JP2 credited Mary for his surviving an assasination attempt.

All that and much, much more blasphemy.

Glad I left it.
 
B

Baptistrw

Guest
But roaring, what do you think happened to all the christians who lived prior to the reformation? Before the idea of sola fide etc really took off?
do you think they went to hell?
They were persecuted and killed for not being apart of the church of Rome.
 
T

thefightinglamb

Guest
Someone said that they would prefer to die then leave the 'catholic church'...I suppose you could add I would rather die than leave the 'catholic church'--even if it is wrong...because that is the whole point of making that statement to begin with...If it had to do with the catholic church just being right than it seems the statement would be I would prefer to die than leave the truth in my Lord Jesus Christ, no matter what anything or anybody else says.

I thought of two more things that are confusing in the catholic church.

They have written prayers that they try to make inner prayers. What I am trying to say is that they read a lot of prayers of other people instead of going straight to the Lord. Which other people do as well...but I used to eat lunch with a catholic preist once in a while, and he basically falls asleep following all the set words he is suppose to say every week, regardless of what is in his heart...Would would happen if he broke down and just followed the spirit to pray whatever was on his heart?

I also believe the Catholic church believes more in a social savior than personal. I was trying to explain to another catholic priest how God talks to me and I follow what he says, and he told me "God only talks for and through the church" (not quoting exact words but he said and meant this)...Whereas I believe that God is who spiritually everyone encounters even before experiencing anything in existence, he told me straight out that he didn't believe that God speaks to people on a one to one basis.

Also this concept of role-model apart from Jesus, is still an idol as I said before. So you look at someone elses life and you see all their good deeds and thus you justify them as a saint. What would happen if someone did nothing and were still justified as a saint?
It is not what they did that you should look to...they cannot feed you, only the Lord can and does.

I think all my statements from before still stand...I'll try to respond to them. You did not answer why they didn't put buckets on the sides of the cross to drink later...That does not require the body to be broken up.

And I was never bashing. For a long time I wanted to be catholic, after my mom persecuted me during a fast...and told me about how my insane dad always wanted me to be catholic...I started going there (to mass) every day of the week...sometimes multiple times, until I saw the futility of it...I thought up this as well--so you believe Jesus is in the eucharist: then how can someone come to God without the Eucharist, meaning why would you have someone go through anything before first being introduced to the Lord? Hello I am Tony, Hello I am bread and wine, eat me and recieve life. What I am trying to say is that communion should be first because of its importance and power to change people in converts life, to strengthen them to obey the Lord.

God bless

tony
 
L

lifetime

Guest
Kitty, I suggest you take a good long retreat to prayer and ask the Lord for guidance because your stated intentions are not reflected at all in your actions and in fact your actions relay an entirely different impression.

God bless
 
S

suaso

Guest
The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
I'd tick the box on that one. The Pope is usually unquestioned in his actions and what he says.
No. We regard what the Church teaches as truth. Should the pope himself preach against the teaching of the Church, he too would be wrong and would effectively excommunicate himself. However, no pope has ever declared and official teaching on faith or morals which has been found to be in conflict with historical Church teachings on faith and morals. We may very well question him when he appears to be acting against Church teaching.

Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
And boy was it punished in past centuaries.
Some today are even torture /abused because they want to leave the church. They may do it under the guise of "exorcism".
Such as? The most extreme form of punishment for dissent is excommunication from the sacraments. Doubt is a thing that can lead to greater faith or a loss of faith, and is neither discouraged or encouraged by the Church. You should not make claims of people being tortured/abused for doubting or questioning without a valid source to back them up. Then we will see if it is happening legally or illegally (my money is on illegally).

Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
Ascetism and similar is frequent in Catholicism. As is chanting etc.
Asceticism is merely a path taken by a very small group of individuals called hermits, who choose to be alone and away from the world in order to grow close to God.
St. John the Baptist was an ascetic. Chanting in the Catholic tradition is simply a way of singing hymn and is in no way mind altering. It was the earliest form of music in Europe and modern music evolved out of it. Have you ever even listened to chant?

The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
Sounds like the type of controls the R.C. exhibits over its flock. eg marriage bans for priests. Also teachings on contraceptive devices etc.
The Bible dictates in great detail how Christians should think, act, and feel. The Church uses the Bible to explains things, such as how we are not to commit Adultery also means we are not to lust, fornicate, masturbate, etc. I don’t know any church that does not do the same thing. What is wrong with our teachings on contraceptives? We’re the only ones who seem to be raising the most fuss against abortion and contraceptives because the use of these things undermines the desire God has for us to procreate within the bind of marriage without hindrance.

The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
Bingo. R.C. exalts itself above other denominations. The status given to the Pope is cult-like. Whatever the Pope says is taken as gospel, even if it is plainly wrong according to scripture.
The Church believes she teaches the fullness of the truth of the Word, yes. I am sure you believe that your way is also the best way and that other ways are somehow inferior or incomplete. If you didn’t, you wouldn’t be trying to compel others to believe that their way is wrong (as you are doing to me and other Catholics). Whatever the pope says is not taken as gospel. Only when he publicly and intentionally speaks on matters of faith and morals does he speak infallibly. Believe it or not, this has happened much less than one might think.

The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
That's true of the R.C. church.
That’s true of most churches. That’s why this thread was started: “Warning! THEY are wrong, WE are right!” The thing about Catholicism is that it is not us versus them. It is us, as Christians, against the evils of society: those things which society says is ok, like homosexual behavior, promiscuity, selfishness, improper use of our sexuality, the throw-away culture (abortion/euthanasia). We believe it is our duty as Christians to live as Christ wants and not how popular culture says we should.


‪The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
how accountable is the Pope and Vatican? hmm.
The example here clearly says “unlike teachers, commanders, ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis or mainstream religious denominations.” The pope himself is a priest. The title of pope designates him as the bishop of the diocese of Rome, which has authority over the other bishops. A bishop is a priest. The Catholic Church is a pretty mainstream religious denomination with 1.1 billion members. That’s fairly mainstream if you ask me. He is also the head of his nation: the Vatican is a sovereign nation, with its own laws and regulations. It is a sovereign nation within another sovereign nation (Italy). It just happens to be very tiny (like Malta, Lichtenstein, etc), but it is still a country. The pope is still subject to the laws of his own nation just as the Queen of England is subject to English law and the President of America is subject to American law. Whoever said the pope was not subject to law? I bet you if the pope murdered his brother he’d be locked up. How accountable is the Queen of England and the nation of England? How accountable is the president of America and the United States? Whatever answer you have to those two questions applies to the Pope and the Vatican, as the Pope is the leader of the nation which is the Vatican City-State.

The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
Maybe this one doesn't apply to R.C church, not sure.
This does not apply to the Church. Lying and deceiving others is always a sin and we are told not to do that. To lie even for the sake of the Church is wrong. If the Church is true, or if the good I am seeking is true, there ought be no need to deceive people in order to bring them to a truth or a good thing because the truth and goodness of the thing will speak for itself.

The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
I'm pretty sure this one the R.C church does. The threat of purgatory is often a strong motive for people to do the Pope's bidding to receive indulgences.
Not done by the Church (though often done by one’s parents of any denomination it seems). Firstly, guilt is not a bad thing. Guilt is a sign that the conscience works. When one realizes that they have done something wrong, and they feel guilty for it, this is what moves them to repentance. If one feels guilty, then the case usually is that one is guilty. Guilt ought not to be confused with self-loathing. Self-loathing is bad, because if you hate yourself you hate what God has created, and humans are a good creation of God not to be hated even by one’s own self.

Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
Maybe the R.C church doesn't exhibit this one so much.
Nope…not anymore than any other Christian group says to follow Christ and not the world.

The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
I think that's true. But also to bring in members of other churches under the umbrella of catholicism.

Well, we are called to evangelize as much as anyone else. Didn’t Jesus command his apostles to make disciples of all nations? We don’t do it actively…I mean, I have had Baptists, JWs, and Mormons come to my door and try to convince my family to leave my church for theirs. Then, this threat is trying to convince people not to be Catholic, so I guess the above rule applies to any group of Christians that evangelize in any way.

The group is preoccupied with making money.
True. In the past, indulgences were sold, bribes were accepted , they had church taxes, and persuade people to give up their money and possessions to the church. Nowadays, the Vatican has its own bank and all.
The purpose of the Church is not to make money. It does not require a membership fee, and does not force tithing (though it is recommended to give according to one’s means). In the past people abused the right use of indulgences for personal gain. This does not mean that it was right or acceptable or even approved by the teachings of the Church. Men did these things against the teachings of their own Church. Men in all churches do these things. It is called sin. The Vatican is a nation. Why would it operate with a foreign bank? Would you expect the United States to put all of its money in the National Band of Uganda? Nope.

Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
Not sure about that one.
I guess you could say we are expected to devote at least one hour to Church on Sundays, but really, that is the only expectation. We are encouraged to do more: like read the Bible on our free time, pray regularly, etc. Just like any other Christian Church.

Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
I do know the catholics tend to stick to themselves.
Boy, with the aggressive, malicious, and relentless attacks in this thread alone, would you blame us? I am a native of South Carolina. Once I began public school, I had many many friends…until they found out I was Catholic. Then they spent their free time saying “YOUR GOING TO HELL!” So, yeah, after that, I pretty much only hung out with my Catholic friends…all 2 of them. We are certainly not encouraged to keep to our own. It simply is the case that others usually seem to not want us around or are otherwise hostile to us.

‪The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
I am sure this type of feeling exists in the R. C church. A number of catholics I have spoken with have this sort of fear or dread of what might happen if they leave the church.
Christians ought to fear becoming non Christian because to believe in anything but Christianity is to die. Makes sense to me.

Tony, the example I gave of how Christ said how to do communion at the Last Supper applies to his body and his blood equally. That is the most sufficient answer I can sufficiently give regarding that statement: because Christ told the apostles to do it one way, and to do it another way would have been to go against his wishes.
 

Test_F_i_2_Luv

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2009
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Test_f_i_2_luv: If my question is so flawed, show the flaw. Clarify your original statement. Rephrasing the thought could make a world of difference.I did show the flaw. I clarified my statement previously:

MahogonySnail: I did not say the bible differences "causes the difference in theology with protestants " I said their version makes it difficult when you debate with them.

You claimed that I said that the bible differences cause differences in theology with protestants. I did not say that all. I said the phrasing (not to mention any footnotes) in the Catholic bible makes it difficult when they aren't using exactly the same bible version.

Test_f_i_2_luv: Your exact words were "The catholic bible is a bit different on key areas that catholics differ from protestants. eg. the nature of the wine turning into Christ's actual blood etc. Which makes it difficult to prove the point when their bible supports their own doctrine, and vice versa".

My response:
"What's the difference in the RC Bible that causes the difference in theology with protestants and why is Lutheran theology different than both that of the RC church & other protestant denominations?"

The catholic bible is a bit different = What's the difference in the RC Bible

on key areas that catholics differ from protestants. eg. the nature of the wine turning into Christ's actual blood etc. Which makes it difficult to prove the point when their bible supports their own doctrine, and vice versa = that causes the difference in theology with protestants

"wine turning into Christ's actual blood etc" = transubstantiation = theological issue as well as a difference in theology with protestants

Now, finally, you clarify yourself without using a false example(ie - John 6:53/54). What you're really getting at is that "the phrasing (not to mention any footnotes) in the Catholic bible makes it difficult when they aren't using exactly the same bible version". Still need an actual existing example.

You've got a strange and demanding bias.

1. You haven't offered any examples of verses that are dramatically different between a RC & Protestant Bible.
2.
The footnotes in Protestant Bibles will give several explanations for a particular verse when there are multiple Protestant views on the verse. This certainly doesn't help from a Protestant perspective. In such instances, the RC is pretty much forced to ask "which Protestant view are you going to argue in favor of"?
3. RC Bibles will have a RC position on the verse in it's footnotes. Protestant Bible will have Protestant views on the verse. If footnotes are an issue, then both parties ought to use Bibles without any footnotes.
4. We protestants have more versions than the RCs do. It's certainly not helpful to a RC to discussing the Bible when s/he has to deal with a boatload of different Protestant Bible versions. Add to that the extremist KJV only-ism croud which thinks all other versions(and probably especially a RC version) are satanic and we Protestants are poorly represented.
 
E

EconGrad

Guest
I couldn't be a Roman Catholic again in good conscience. Not an honest or 'good' one anyhow.

I wouldn't call the Roman Catholic Church a cult though. In my opinion Roman Catholicism contains elements of folk religion and superstition mixed in with orthodox Christianity.

I'd not condemn the followers of the Roman Catholic Church either over my disagreements with them.
 
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