Was Judas saved?

[MahogonySnail]

Thanks for raising that point Pastor Keith it raises another question.

Some see Judas as someone misguided who didn't know what he was doing. He betrayed Christ , not knowing Christ was going to be killed. He may not be up for murder, but possibly manslaughter.
Others see Judas as someone intent on seeing Christ die, and had as much part in Christ's death as those who put him on the cross. A full blown murderer.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Thanks for raising that point Pastor Keith it raises another question.

Some see Judas as someone misguided who didn't know what he was doing. He betrayed Christ , not knowing Christ was going to be killed. He may not be up for murder, but possibly manslaughter.
Others see Judas as someone intent on seeing Christ die, and had as much part in Christ's death as those who put him on the cross. A full blown murderer.

Then I guess I am a murderer also for it was my sins that nailed Him to the Cross;Heb 9:28So Christ was once offered to bear the SINS OF many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[Wisdom]

The question is was Judas saved or not? Judas was not saved because the word say, if you continue in my word then you are my disciple indeed. It also, says it you continue until the end and you would be saved. Judas, did not continue in the word of God.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Then I guess I am a murderer also for it was my sins that nailed Him to the Cross

umm yeah I guess in a sense yes. Not to forget that God the Father nailed Jesus to the cross, and that Jesus willingly chose to be nailed to the cross. We didn't really nail Jesus to the cross, only in the sense that if we weren't sinners, Jesus would never have had to go to the cross.., it was all God's wonderful plan of salvation to nail Jesus to the cross. He didn't have to, but he wanted to.

 

[KingdomGeneration]

How can anyone come to the conclusion by Judas doing miracles that he was a believer have you not ever read :
Mt 7:22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mt 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What part of I NEVER KNEW YOU , don't u understand. They were not saved while they were doing all these wonderful works then stepped away. Jesus never knew them, they were never saved , never were they one of His!!

One more thing here, show me one scripture where Judas did a miracle

Please read the entire thread. Mahogany has already given a more than adequate answer.

 

[BLC]

Quote: 'Joh 6:64 Yet some of you do not believe." (Jesus knew from the very beginning who were the ones that would not believe and which one would betray him.) The ones who would not believe, and the one who betrayed him (Judas) are two different kinds of people. Judas was one of those who did believe, but would later betray him'.

In (John 13 1-11) Jesus took a towel and basin to wash the disciples feet after the sup was ended. The devil had already put in the heart of Judas to betray Him (v/2). Peter doesn't want just his feet washed but he wants to be washed all over. Now hear the response that Christ gives to Peter.

v/10,11 'Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean'.

Peter was clean, he only needed his feet (his walk) to be washed. Peter did not need to be cleaned again because he was already clean every whit as were the other disciples except the one who would betray Him and that one was not clean. Judas had never been washed and was not clean. You can't take from this nor add anything to this event and the things that Christ said, because it is what it is. There is no hidden or double meaning in any of it. Jesus could not have made it any clearer. Judas was never washed or cleansed from sin.

 

[Baruch]

Sorry Baruch usually I can Amen. most of your posts, But I have to disagree with the disciples were not sealed until pentecost for this scripture I will have to throw in, I believe they were saved, sealed when They walked away from everything and followed Him.

Lu 10:17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.Lu 10:18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.Lu 10:19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.Lu 10:20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Your names ARE WRITTEN , not soon will be written

That is okay, Pastor Keith. Iron sharpens iron. I am certain that believers of like-mindedness will correct one another when need be.

However, I do point out that I see the verses you had quoted moreso towards predestination, than the moment of being sealed as His. The reason why I see the Day of Pentecost as the day of the actual sealing is due to the promise of Jesus from John 14th chapter which leads to the permanancy of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Matthew 9:17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

As Matthew 10 and Luke 10 share testimony of this similar event of power of the Holy Spirit given unto them, and yet again, in John 20:22, He gave them the Holy Ghost again.. but note.. He was still with them. So the promise of the permanancy of the indwelling Holy Ghost is when He had departed finally to the right hand of God the Father so that the Holy Spirit can fulfill the role of the Comforter in John 14th chapter. That was why they were told to wait so that His actual departure to the right hand of God the Father would bring forth that promise.

I am certain that many believed in Him before the crucifixion, but the process of providing the means for salvation available for all had yet to occur... and so He died, rose, and ascended to the right hand of God the Father as we are bought with a price, sealed with the Holy Spirit so that we may be witnesses of Jesus Christ and what He has done for us.

So in the scripture you had quoted, I see that as leading towards predestination. It's like this...

Romans 8: 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2 Thessalonians 2:13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

So yes, their names were written in heaven because God foreknew they would believe on Him and once Jesus had died, rose, and had ascended to the right hand of God the Father, they were justified by the faith in Christ whereunto they were called unto the Gospel to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That particular glory.. the Good News.. was not fully realized nor implemented until He had died, rose, and had ascended for them to be bought with a price and sealed as His, but yes, their names were already written in Heaven for God foreknew them.

Remember in Acts how the disciples were led away from Asia and the away from Mysia? And yet the great commission was to spread the Gospel everywhere, right? But God foreknew that they would not receive the Gospel as He foreknew whom would.. a man in Macedonia. So it is in that I see the names as written in Heaven for God foreknew them.

That is why the yoke in serving the Lord is not heavy or burdensome as He will do His work in us and through us and in others so that no flesh shall glory in His Presence, but glory in the Lord as we cast our crowns at His feet for what He has done. That is why we can leave the wayward believers behind at the rapture event because Jesus will finish His work even in them.

Note this...

John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We see how we come to the Son... and in verse 3 below.. He calls us by name.

John 10: 1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Now as much as you and I see those that seek another baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues as this below...

1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

... as they follow a stranger's voice which is a perfect analogy to tongues without interpretation... we see that even the wayward will be scourged for not being "chaste" in going to the Bridegroom only for having their relationship with God the Father as Jesus will finish His work even in those left behind as they would be the vessels unto dishonour.

John 10:14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So that is why I refer to the Day of Pentecost as the official day of the sealing of the saints that believed in Jesus.

1 Corinthians 6:18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2 Timothy 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

2 Timothy 2:11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Hopefully, by His grace, you see where I am coming from in regards to our faith in Christ.

 

[Piano_hero]

Jesus Christ never lost Judas (John 18:9). Have you not read (John 17:12) 'While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

lol, that same verse you use to say that Jesus didnt lose Judas says the exact opposite .that verse itself says that jesus only lost judas except you used an old timey version so it gives more leeway for bending to ones own will . here it is plainly
"While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave me. I watched over them, and none of them, except one person, became lost. So Scripture came true." .

 

[MahogonySnail]

BLC said,

Jesus could not have made it any clearer. Judas was never washed or cleansed from sin.

That's a very good point. But does it mean Judas was never a christian or a believer in Christ? I can't say that it does. If anything, the fact that Judas was never washed or cleansed from sin, is more in line with the non-OSAS position that sin can cause a person to lose salvation, than the OSAS position which says a christian can never lose salvation even if they sin.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I mean, here you have a man (Judas), called by Christ, willingly followed him, obviously believed in him, was his friend, was even more, an apostle, by today's standards he fulfilled the requirement of a Christian "believe in Christ and you will be saved" , but he never dealt with the unresolved sin in his life, and so that led to him being open to satans attack and ultimate betrayal of Christ. There are many "Judas's" in todays churches, with unresolved sin in their life, who are guaranteed a place in heaven because feel good preachers make them think they can never fall away (yes thankyou Mr Calvin). Yet Judas fell from Christ and his apostleship and fell badly, as was predicted by the Prophets.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Baruch, I think Scripture teaches that the sealing occurs when one puts their faith in Christ, not at Pentecost:

Eph 1:13 in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The disciples were sealed with the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. If they weren't they wouldn't have believed in Jesus. This agrees with Jesus's teachings about being born again. If we are born again, the Spirit has already sealed that person as theirs. No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit.

Pentecost was a subsequent "pouring out" of the Spirit as prophesied by Joel, and resulted in tongues, prophecy etc..
This pouring out is different to the sealing of the Spirit.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 "And it shall be in the last days, says God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.
Act 2:18 And in those days I will pour out My Spirit upon My slaves and My slave women, and they shall prophesy.


As Barnes says in his commentary:

I will pour out of my Spirit - The expression in Hebrew is, "I will pour out my Spirit." The word "pour" is commonly applied to water or to blood, "to pour it out," or "to shed it," Isa_57:6; to tears, "to pour them out," that is," to weep, etc., Psa_42:4; 1Sa_1:15. It is applied to water, to wine, or to blood, in the New Testament, Mat_9:17; Rev_16:1; Act_22:20, "The blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed." It conveys also the idea of "communicating largely or freely," as water is poured freely from a fountain, Tit_3:5-6, "The renewing of the Holy Spirit, which he shed on us abundantly." Thus, Job_36:27, "They (the clouds) pour down rain according to the vapor thereof"; Isa_44:3, "I will pour water on him that is thirsty"; Isa_45:8, "Let the skies pour down righteousness"; Mal_3:10, "I will pour you out a blessing." It is also applied to fury and anger, when God intends to say that he will not spare, but will signally punish, Psa_69:24; Jer_10:25. It is not infrequently applied to the Spirit, Pro_1:23; Isa_44:3; Zec_12:10. As thus used it means that he will bestow large measures of spiritual influences. As the Spirit renews and sanctifies people, so to pour out the Spirit is to grant freely his influences to renew and sanctify the soul.

As Gill says in his commentary:

By the Spirit is meant the gifts of the Spirit, the spirit of wisdom and knowledge, of understanding the mysteries of the Gospel, of explaining the Scriptures, and of speaking with tongues; and by the pouring of it out, is intended the abundance and great plenty of the gifts and graces of the Spirit bestowed; but yet not all of him, or all his gifts and grace in the large extent of them: therefore it is said, not "my Spirit", but "of my Spirit", or "out of it"; as out of an unfathomable, immeasurable, and inexhaustible fountain and fulness:

 

[MahogonySnail]

The scriptures about new wine in new wineskins is not about the pouring out of the Spirit at Pentecost, but about the lost being saved, the sealing of the Spirit as per being born again, regeneration, whatever we wish to call it, not Pentecost.

As Barnes says in his commentary:

But they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. By "new bottles" are meant sinners, whom Christ calls by his grace, and the Spirit regenerates and renews, who are made new creatures in Christ; who have new hearts, and new spirits, and new principles of light, life, love, faith, and holiness, implanted in them; who have new eyes to see with, new ears to hear with, new feet to walk with, to and in Christ, new hands to work and handle with, and who live a new life and conversation. Now to such as these, the love of God is manifested and shed abroad in their hearts; by these, the Gospel of Christ is truly received and valued, and these enjoy the spiritual blessings of it; and so both the doctrine of the Gospel, and the grace of God, are preserved entire, and these persons saved in the day of Christ.

 

[Baruch]

I have seen scholars making mistakes, so I wouldn't put much stock in the modern day ones since you are not putting stock in the KJV translators of the past.

Reason being that in Job 40, the footnotes had the Biblical scholars of the day call the behemoth an elephant or a rhino, but neither one of those creatures has a tail like a cedar which is a tree. This is what happens when error in education and train of thinking gets even the Biblical scholars to "compromise" the meaning of the Bible.

So for all those believers out there, rely on the Lord to give you wisdom in understanding His Words. He will give us the answers we seek. That is His promise to all of us that believe in His Word. Amen.