Was King David a rapist?

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7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#61
I don't know why so many are saying she was not naked, who takes a bath with their clothes on?

One thing I hadn't thought of before is that the roof had to have walls, or at least a railing. Not only is it common sense, it was put into law (Deuteronomy 22:8). If it was walls, David would have to be pretty high up- which is possible for castles.

But like I said, after the introduction of new thoughts to consider, i changed my mind, I no longer think she was trying to seduce David.

man I'm telling you! I would not have known either if I had not bothered to look it up...do a little research, yah know?

Customs of bathing in the ancient world, and in some cultures today, are very different to the way most westerners bathe. In many cultures, women do not have the luxury of a private bathroom, and they bathe in more public places. Sometimes they bathe with clothes on, or with a cloth or sarong wrapped around their bodies, so that they are never completely naked.[2] We don’t know if Bathsheba was bathing by a well, or spring, or river (cf. Judith 12:7-9); or if she was bathing at her own home, perhaps on the roof or in a courtyard. But we do know it was evening, so the light level may have been low. It is more than likely that Bathsheba was neither naked nor brazenly exposed when she was bathing.

2 Samuel 11:4 indicates that Bathsheba’s bath was part of a ritual cleansing. (This is clearer in the CEB, NRSV and NIV than in other English translations such as the NASB.) Devout Israelite women washed seven days after their period had finished, as indicated in the Law, and this may have been what Bathsheba was doing. source

if anyone would actually read the passage, her bathing was ritual cleansing from her period...nothing involving pole dancing

...................................................................................................................



What happens in the story of David and Bathsheba seems sometimes to depend on the eye of the beholder. Some suggest Bathsheba was a seductress who had her eye on the king. Others think she naively put herself in a position where her immodesty could tempt the righteous king. Either way, many people mistakenly assume that Bathsheba bears a portion of the blame for David’s sin. This is a misreading of the text. While there is some ambiguity in the narrative, the story puts the blame squarely on David’s shoulders. The story of David and Bathsheba is not the story of a conniving seductress. It is a story of a king who abused his power, took advantage of a woman, murdered her husband to cover it up, and sinned against God.

Here are five reasons why Bathsheba was the victim in this story.

1. David was on the roof. Bathsheba wasn’t.
2. Bathsheba was conducting her monthly purification rites.
3. The Bible doesn’t usually mince words.
4. David takes the initiative throughout the encounter.
5. You are the man! Nathan puts the blame on David.

So What Really Happened?

Did David rape Bathsheba? There are scholars on both sides of the issue. Some argue that David’s position and power made it impossible for Bathsheba to say no. Others counter that the text omits any mention of Bathsheba resisting or objecting to David’s advances. While acknowledging that the account leaves some ambiguity, I think it’s most accurate to say that the narrator does not consider it rape. The Old Testament view of rape is fairly narrow, applying only to situations where the man forcibly overpowered the woman (see Deuteronomy 22:23-27; 2 Samuel 13:1-14). There is nothing in the text to suggest that David forced himself on Bathsheba. However, I would also add that I do not believe Bathsheba would have felt she had many options, nor do I feel it is appropriate to conclude that she was an “unprotesting partner” as the NIV study notes do. True, the Bible records no protest from Bathsheba. However, the Bible also records no protest when Sarah was taken by Pharaoh and Abimelech, when David himself reclaimed Michal from Paltiel, or when Esther was taken by Xerxes (Genesis 12: 11-20; 20:1-18; 2 Samuel 3:12-16; Esther 2:8-9). It seems most accurate to conclude that Bathsheba didn’t protest because the king’s power and authority made it impossible for her to do so.

Why does it matter?

It matters because this is not the story of a godly man who was led astray by a seductive, conniving woman. It is the story of a godly man who fell into sin because he was led astray and enticed by his own evil desires (James 1:13-15). Consider the number of red flags there should have been in this story. It was chance that David’s eyes fell upon Bathsheba that evening, but he should have known not to lust after a woman who was not his wife. Her identity as the granddaughter of David’s counselor and daughter of one of his bodyguards should have let him know that she was a woman, not an object. Her status as wife of a member of his royal guard should have reminded David that she was off limits, even to the king. Yet the king followed his desires, and they brought forth death. David lost four sons because of what happened that evening.



source


there are many many articles about Bathsheba out there, but it seems many people think they are so familiar with the story they don't need to take a better look

I guess if someone wants to paint her as the big seductress, they will continue to do so but frankly I think that kind of gives a clue as to how they see all women

yes I said that :whistle:
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#62
I recommend taking that blog piece with a grain of salt. It says that bathing water had to be collected rainwater, which is simply not a requirement of the law, or even realistic. Also, did Hebrew women only bath once a month?
it doesn't matter if Hebrew women bathed daily (which by the way they did not...most bathing was apparently ritual)..the Bible relates she was not having a bubble bath

and I would recommend taking your biased post with 2 or 3 grains of salt :cool:
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,910
2,746
113
#63
First, a Disclaimer: I am not picking on my brother David, whom I love and shall see someday. We all sin and need to repent whole-heartily as he did in Psalms. I do not judge him. Simply some of his sins are written in the bible- which make them open for discussion...

We all know and agree that David committed murder, and we all know why- to be with Bathsheba and to cover up his pregnancy with her. But some say he raped Bathsheba. I disagree, and here's why...

There are different kinds of rape...
1 By force against the other's will (non-consensual).
2 Statutory rape (even if it is consensual between both the adult and the minor).
3 And there is power rape- someone misuses their authority over you to psychologically pressure you into verbally agreeing to it when you would not have agreed had there not been that pressure and misuse of authority. And this is the kind in question.


The bible answers itself in other areas of it, so let's look to the bible for this answer. God is wise, and He shared that ability with Solomon (who happens to be David's son). When a case was brought before him of the two mothers claiming both their babies were born around the same time, one had died, and both claim the live one is theirs, He was wise enough to offer to cut the child in half and give half to each mother- which revealed the real mother who pleaded for the child's life. When you are a mother, your intention is to protect your child.

God has an ability that we do not have. He can always see the intentions, thoughts, and motivations of each heart. I understand that a child, even at the age of 16, cannot truly decide such things for themselves. That's why they can't walk into a bar and get drunk, or get married in some cases, or make legal decisions about surgeries or medicines. But we are talking adults here, therefore we must look at the intention.

In Deuteronomy 22 the bible speaks of a woman being raped in town or out in the field. In town people should hear her scream, in the field they cannot hear her scream. So if she is raped in town, and screamed not, she also is found guilty. By not screaming and calling for help, her intention was proven that she consensually shared in the sin.

So let's look at the evidences of Bathsheba's intentions. She was bathing naked on the roof. That tells me that she is not modest for one, and that she knew she would be seen by David- that's flaunting and flirting. Her goal was obviously to leave a poor man and be united to a rich man with power and titles- which would affect her status as well. There is no mention of her crying for her dead husband, or being united to David against her will.

Some say that since guards brought her to him, that that proves she was brought against her will. I disagree. It could have been for secrecy and protection. Besides, does a king go fetch his own bread? No, his servants bring him all his needs and requests.

I personally do not believe Bathsheba was raped by any definition of the word. I am speaking as someone who has been kidnapped at 16, and raped repeatedly for years while held captive in a dark basement- in which I produced a son. I know rape. Bathsheba was not raped.
no it was not rape,

abuse of power yes. could dhe refuse the King ? she could have but She did what the king wanted. That is not rape . adultry yes. murder yes.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#64
and since CS1 brought it up, most articles conclude it was not rape but most definitely abuse of power...see my post 61...she was not just some village girl...David should have let her be but he had already illustrated his proclivity towards just taking women

however, Nathan put the blame squarely on David and he suffered for it the rest of his life
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#66
I just thought of something interesting

David committed adultery with Bathsheba and Bathsheba most likely did not scream for help (picture it was the king)

their son so conceived died, but Solomon was their son and far out did his father with regards to women

thinking about the fact he was the offspring of D and B...sins of the fathers?

I suppose that opens a whole nother can of wigglies though :cautious:
 
L

LaVieEnRose

Guest
#67
man I'm telling you! I would not have known either if I had not bothered to look it up...do a little research, yah know?

Customs of bathing in the ancient world, and in some cultures today, are very different to the way most westerners bathe. In many cultures, women do not have the luxury of a private bathroom, and they bathe in more public places. Sometimes they bathe with clothes on, or with a cloth or sarong wrapped around their bodies, so that they are never completely naked.[2] We don’t know if Bathsheba was bathing by a well, or spring, or river (cf. Judith 12:7-9); or if she was bathing at her own home, perhaps on the roof or in a courtyard. But we do know it was evening, so the light level may have been low. It is more than likely that Bathsheba was neither naked nor brazenly exposed when she was bathing.

2 Samuel 11:4 indicates that Bathsheba’s bath was part of a ritual cleansing. (This is clearer in the CEB, NRSV and NIV than in other English translations such as the NASB.) Devout Israelite women washed seven days after their period had finished, as indicated in the Law, and this may have been what Bathsheba was doing. source

if anyone would actually read the passage, her bathing was ritual cleansing from her period...nothing involving pole dancing

...................................................................................................................



What happens in the story of David and Bathsheba seems sometimes to depend on the eye of the beholder. Some suggest Bathsheba was a seductress who had her eye on the king. Others think she naively put herself in a position where her immodesty could tempt the righteous king. Either way, many people mistakenly assume that Bathsheba bears a portion of the blame for David’s sin. This is a misreading of the text. While there is some ambiguity in the narrative, the story puts the blame squarely on David’s shoulders. The story of David and Bathsheba is not the story of a conniving seductress. It is a story of a king who abused his power, took advantage of a woman, murdered her husband to cover it up, and sinned against God.

Here are five reasons why Bathsheba was the victim in this story.

1. David was on the roof. Bathsheba wasn’t.
2. Bathsheba was conducting her monthly purification rites.
3. The Bible doesn’t usually mince words.
4. David takes the initiative throughout the encounter.
5. You are the man! Nathan puts the blame on David.


So What Really Happened?

Did David rape Bathsheba? There are scholars on both sides of the issue. Some argue that David’s position and power made it impossible for Bathsheba to say no. Others counter that the text omits any mention of Bathsheba resisting or objecting to David’s advances. While acknowledging that the account leaves some ambiguity, I think it’s most accurate to say that the narrator does not consider it rape. The Old Testament view of rape is fairly narrow, applying only to situations where the man forcibly overpowered the woman (see Deuteronomy 22:23-27; 2 Samuel 13:1-14). There is nothing in the text to suggest that David forced himself on Bathsheba. However, I would also add that I do not believe Bathsheba would have felt she had many options, nor do I feel it is appropriate to conclude that she was an “unprotesting partner” as the NIV study notes do. True, the Bible records no protest from Bathsheba. However, the Bible also records no protest when Sarah was taken by Pharaoh and Abimelech, when David himself reclaimed Michal from Paltiel, or when Esther was taken by Xerxes (Genesis 12: 11-20; 20:1-18; 2 Samuel 3:12-16; Esther 2:8-9). It seems most accurate to conclude that Bathsheba didn’t protest because the king’s power and authority made it impossible for her to do so.

Why does it matter?

It matters because this is not the story of a godly man who was led astray by a seductive, conniving woman. It is the story of a godly man who fell into sin because he was led astray and enticed by his own evil desires (James 1:13-15). Consider the number of red flags there should have been in this story. It was chance that David’s eyes fell upon Bathsheba that evening, but he should have known not to lust after a woman who was not his wife. Her identity as the granddaughter of David’s counselor and daughter of one of his bodyguards should have let him know that she was a woman, not an object. Her status as wife of a member of his royal guard should have reminded David that she was off limits, even to the king. Yet the king followed his desires, and they brought forth death. David lost four sons because of what happened that evening.



source


there are many many articles about Bathsheba out there, but it seems many people think they are so familiar with the story they don't need to take a better look

I guess if someone wants to paint her as the big seductress, they will continue to do so but frankly I think that kind of gives a clue as to how they see all women

yes I said that :whistle:
Thank you for this post.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#68
No she wasn't. Her husband was one of David's 30 mighty men. She could have put an end to it if she had wanted.

hey...no one said you had to believe anything but what you wanted to believe

like I already said, I do see some prejudice going into the discussion and it is online as well and seems to be somewhat prejudiced for or against according to gender
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#69
maybe they should have had shower stalls with opaque glass or something :D
 
L

LaVieEnRose

Guest
#70
yeah that's right

why is it always the prostitute that is dirty? if I remember right, there are 2 people involved

men do what they do and then turn around and say the woman made them do it by what she wore or said or maybe the tilt of her head

it's nonsense
From what I read from the Bible, the men going
hey...no one said you had to believe anything but what you wanted to believe

like I already said, I do see some prejudice going into the discussion and it is online as well and seems to be somewhat prejudiced for or against according to gender
I think men are extremely naive if they think Bathsheba could have just said “no” to the King.
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,344
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#71
Here are the troubling issue here

People are assuming things without biblical fact, that is dangerous. Especially when you tear down someone,

No one was in the womans head to know what she was thinking

1. do i turn the king down?

2. i am pregnant with kings son, what do I do (she probably thought her life was over? But we can not prove that, so should we speculate?

We should just stick with gacts and not assume anyway, that how people went astray with unfounded doctrines to begin with, speculation kills the power of the word.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
687
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#72
2 Samuel 11:4 indicates that Bathsheba’s bath was part of a ritual cleansing. (This is clearer in the CEB, NRSV and NIV than in other English translations such as the NASB.) Devout Israelite women washed seven days after their period had finished, as indicated in the Law, and this may have been what Bathsheba was doing. source
That's not what that verse says at all. It says she stayed with David until she was clean from sleeping with him. People who had sex were unclean until the evening (Leviticus 15:18).
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
687
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#73
That's not what that verse says at all. It says she stayed with David until she was clean from sleeping with him. People who had sex were unclean until the evening (Leviticus 15:18).
I wonder if they took a bath together?

The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even. Leviticus 15:18
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,964
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#74
every day things, '....' comes up in all of our lives - and I AM keeping in 'context'...
search your hearts, be honest if you can, because so very often this is simply
not possible depending on where you are in your journey -

we only have One True Love in our lifetime - Love Him with ALL of your 'heart',
and you will definitely see wonderful results - but', if you don't, then there is
definitely some MORE WORK to be done on yourself!
we 'both' know from vast experience'...
 
Feb 7, 2017
1,190
93
48
#76
Where does it say this in Gods word?
  • "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." (Prov 9.10)
  • "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Matt 10.16).
Note that everyone that fear the Lord acts with prudence (wisdom). And no wander: after all, if evil finds a place in our life, however small, its effect will be overwhelming. Hence:

  • "Because you, brothers, were marked out to be free; only do not make use of your free condition to give the flesh its chance, but through love be servants one to another." (Gal 5.13).
  • " And do not give way to the Evil One." (Eph 4:27),
  • "Abstain from all appearance of evil." (1Thess 5.22).
  • "So let him who seems to himself to be safe go in fear of a fall. " (1Cor 10.12).

Based on this, we can see that:

  • "A woman who is full of grace is honoured, but a woman hating righteousness is a seat of shame: those hating work will undergo loss, but the strong keep their wealth." (Prov 11.16).
  • "Every wise woman buildeth her house: but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands" (Prov 14.1).
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,344
17,612
113
#77
  • "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." (Prov 9.10)
  • "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Matt 10.16).
Note that everyone that fear the Lord acts with prudence (wisdom). And no wander: after all, if evil finds a place in our life, however small, its effect will be overwhelming. Hence:

  • "Because you, brothers, were marked out to be free; only do not make use of your free condition to give the flesh its chance, but through love be servants one to another." (Gal 5.13).
  • " And do not give way to the Evil One." (Eph 4:27),
  • "Abstain from all appearance of evil." (1Thess 5.22).
  • "So let him who seems to himself to be safe go in fear of a fall. " (1Cor 10.12).

Based on this, we can see that:

  • "A woman who is full of grace is honoured, but a woman hating righteousness is a seat of shame: those hating work will undergo loss, but the strong keep their wealth." (Prov 11.16).
  • "Every wise woman buildeth her house: but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands" (Prov 14.1).
So this says batsheba was a temptress and was trying to seduce david? Where?
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
687
113
#78
I wonder if they took a bath together?

The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even. Leviticus 15:18

As I read this, first David had her brought to the palace, then bedded her, then she cleansed herself per Leviticus 15:18, then she went to her house.

And David sent messengers, and he took her; and he entered to her, and went to bed with her. And she was purified from her uncleanness, and she returned to her house. 2 Samuel 11:4
A remarkable thing to me about this unfortunate episode is that after David and Bathsheeba committed the gross sin of adultery, they then were faithful to follow the law to be cleansed from the uncleanness of copulation. It's like Christians committing adultery and then being diligent to go to church on Sundays without repenting.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#79
From what I read from the Bible, the men going

I think men are extremely naive if they think Bathsheba could have just said “no” to the King.

ha!

I think they are just defending the actions of way too many men

way too many men and that includes 'Christian' men

disclaimer: obviously not referring to actual men on the forum but there does seem to be this 'it's the woman's fault' mentality over and over and over and I do see that in this forum during the time I have been here...and on others..obviously not every man
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
8,910
2,746
113
#80
and since CS1 brought it up, most articles conclude it was not rape but most definitely abuse of power...see my post 61...she was not just some village girl...David should have let her be but he had already illustrated his proclivity towards just taking women

however, Nathan put the blame squarely on David and he suffered for it the rest of his life
it was davids fault . He was the king go back and read it what did God say to david through the Prophet ?
God said IF you would have asked ME I would have given her to you.