Was Lot a carnal christian or unbeliever

[FollowtheShepherd]

Wow the word calls Lot rigteous but people here are saying Lot is carnal and/or lost????

2 Peter 2:7-8, " 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

Genesis 19:28-29, " 28 He looked off toward Sodom, Gomorrah, and the entire plain, and he saw smoke rising from the land like smoke from a furnace. 29 And so it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, He remembered Abraham and brought Lot out from the midst of the destruction when he overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How he could be a christian?

Once again, it was a typo. I was thinking about all the posts of people who said there is no such thing as a carnal christian when i made it,

Lot is an example of a carnal BELIEVER, who not only was protected by God, was shown to be his child inspite of his lack of faith

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. Categories:
The first thing, as others have pointed out, is to be careful of categories: Lot wasn't actually a "Christian."

2. Bible:
If the Bible says Lot was "just" and "righteous" and "godly" (2Pe2:7-9) then that settles it for me.

3. Opinions:
It doesn't matter if Lot seems awful to ME.
God's opinion is always the right opinion.
What does God say?
God refers to his actions toward Lot (2Peter2:9) as "rescuing the godly".


The story of Lot should give us all great confidence in the mercy and grace of God.

I'm sure others have said the exact same things; I can't imagine I'm saying anything unique.

.

Thank you, i agree 100%

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We know from 2 Peter 2 that Lot was just and righteous.

Doesn't the description of Lot's life reflect how we as believers live our lives in our day and time — — For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds (2 Peter 2:8)?

And don't we rely on the promise of God — — The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished (2 Peter 2:9)?

Sometimes I wonder if Lot was there to give warning to the people to turn from sin. Could Lot have been used by God (as Noah was used) to preach righteousness before God brought judgment?

There is no evidence this was the case, i wonder if god would have told us this if it was?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes it is a strange end for Lots wife. And to "remember Lots wife" has to have some significance. I have always thought that "looking back" (as the OT was a shadow of things to come) represented her hankering after what she was leaving, despite being warned not to look back and maybe why Lot never lived anywhere else to start with as he could have left the city before if it vexed his soul so much, as maybe his wife didn't want to leave.

But it is hard to answer the question people ask sometimes about how come Lot was so righteous when he offered his daughters instead of the angels to the wicked men. I am not sure if we are to make of this, that like most of the characters in the OT, he was just a man and didn't know any better, but it doesn't explain his being called righteous as its not a great example. I mean is it possible to be "righteous" and do such a thing, yet still do something stupid and obviously shocking? Its a hard one to explain, unless he was covered by Abrahams request when he negotiated to save him. Not sure.

David was considered righteous, yet look at his sins

Abraham had some pretty doozy sins also, yet considered righteous,

I think it is the righteousness of god which came by faith?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sodom is our current locale ... no matter where we live on this earth.

This is sad, but so true

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Read in Gen 6:4 There were giants [Heb nĕphiyl] in the earth in those days; and also after that, ...

Numbers 13:33 And there we saw the giants [Heb nĕphiyl], the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Deuteronomy 2:10-11 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.


In Deuteronomy the giants are referred to as rephaim. Perhaps not nephilim, but related.

Probably a DNA thing, they had something from creation which caused them great height.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sounds about right. He knew what the city dwellers were doing was wrong and its not so easy I guess, even today, to get out of a city you hate living in. We cant all go and live in haybarns can we when we hate where we live sometimes. I guess this was Lots "lot".

I also think god needs us to stay and be a light in those places. Because most of them have more then ten righteous people we are not loaners like lot was.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow the word calls Lot rigteous but people here are saying Lot is carnal and/or lost????

2 Peter 2:7-8, " 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

Genesis 19:28-29, " 28 He looked off toward Sodom, Gomorrah, and the entire plain, and he saw smoke rising from the land like smoke from a furnace. 29 And so it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, He remembered Abraham and brought Lot out from the midst of the destruction when he overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

So you think lot was not carnal? How? Everything he did was pretty much for his own pleasure

 

[PennEd]

Going further in your analogy, have you considered Abraham as a type of Christ as Intercessor?





So do you consider Lot as just/righteous? Since believers will be caught up at the time of the pre trib rapture, and Lot is a "simile of the pre trib rapture" then Lot must have been a believer who lived in and among some seriously sinful folks.

My understanding is that the Rabbis view prophecy more as pattern, than the western concept of prediction and fulfillment.

Many of these models are of a literal occurrence and as a predictive pattern. The classical example is that of Abraham and Issac. The more you dig into that account, the more stunning this becomes.

I think prophetic approach to patterns is more prevalent than we know. I like the model of judgement with the Flood.

You had those "raptured" before judgement. (Enoch)

You had those saved through judgement. (Noah + family)

You had those destroyed by judgement. (the rest of the world)


The Angels HAD to remove Lot BEFORE judgement could come on the unrepentant wicked. God told Abraham He would not destroy the righteous (NOT sinless) with the wicked. I believe the same will hold true for the Great Tribulation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My understanding is that the Rabbis view prophecy more as pattern, than the western concept of prediction and fulfillment.

Many of these models are of a literal occurrence and as a predictive pattern. The classical example is that of Abraham and Issac. The more you dig into that account, the more stunning this becomes.

I think prophetic approach to patterns is more prevalent than we know. I like the model of judgement with the Flood.

You had those "raptured" before judgement. (Enoch)

You had those saved through judgement. (Noah + family)

You had those destroyed by judgement. (the rest of the world)


The Angels HAD to remove Lot BEFORE judgement could come on the unrepentant wicked. God told Abraham He would not destroy the righteous (NOT sinless) with the wicked. I believe the same will hold true for the Great Tribulation.

I will be honest, never heard of this, but can not argue against it either

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

So you think lot was not carnal? How? Everything he did was pretty much for his own pleasure

Like I said before, I am not willing to accuse a man that the word calls righteous, and in practice we see God saving him and speaking with him.

2 Peter 2:7-8, " 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

Genesis 19:28-29, " 28 He looked off toward Sodom, Gomorrah, and the entire plain, and he saw smoke rising from the land like smoke from a furnace. 29 And so it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, He remembered Abraham and brought Lot out from the midst of the destruction when he overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like I said before, I am not willing to accuse a man that the word calls righteous, and in practice we see God saving him and speaking with him.

2 Peter 2:7-8, " 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

Genesis 19:28-29, " 28 He looked off toward Sodom, Gomorrah, and the entire plain, and he saw smoke rising from the land like smoke from a furnace. 29 And so it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, He remembered Abraham and brought Lot out from the midst of the destruction when he overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

Yes,

But look at his life, there is really no evidence he really walked with god,,

Yes, he was cut to the heart, all believers are that way, and if sin does not affect them then something is seriously wrong

It does not mean they do not walk outide

Look at lots faith as compaired to Abrahams

Both made some huge sins, but one learned to grow his faith, the other kept failing,

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Yes,

But look at his life, there is really no evidence he really walked with god,,

Yes, he was cut to the heart, all believers are that way, and if sin does not affect them then something is seriously wrong

It does not mean they do not walk outide

Look at lots faith as compaired to Abrahams

Both made some huge sins, but one learned to grow his faith, the other kept failing,

Well God talked to him and writers of these verses say he was righteous. Apparently that does not matter, but to me it is sufficent evidence. Lot was a man of God.

2 Peter 2:7-8, " 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

Genesis 19:28-29, " 28 He looked off toward Sodom, Gomorrah, and the entire plain, and he saw smoke rising from the land like smoke from a furnace. 29 And so it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, He remembered Abraham and brought Lot out from the midst of the destruction when he overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well God talked to him and writers of these verses say he was righteous. Apparently that does not matter, but to me it is sufficent evidence. Lot was a man of God.

2 Peter 2:7-8, " 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

Genesis 19:28-29, " 28 He looked off toward Sodom, Gomorrah, and the entire plain, and he saw smoke rising from the land like smoke from a furnace. 29 And so it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, He remembered Abraham and brought Lot out from the midst of the destruction when he overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

So explain all the times he lacked faith? And carried that lack of faith out

 

[wolfwint]

Once again, it was a typo. I was thinking about all the posts of people who said there is no such thing as a carnal christian when i made it,

Lot is an example of a carnal BELIEVER, who not only was protected by God, was shown to be his child inspite of his lack of faith

EG, he can not be a typo of an christian. He had no Holy Spirit. The different a christian has to him.
So the questions you ask for, cant be answered in this way.
Maby you should search for an NT typo for to ask this questions.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG, he can not be a typo of an christian. He had no Holy Spirit. The different a christian has to him.
So the questions you ask for, cant be answered in this way.
Maby you should search for an NT typo for to ask this questions.

It was my thpo, it should say carnal believer not carnal christian, by the time i realized it it was to late to change

 

[reneweddaybyday]

My understanding is that the Rabbis view prophecy more as pattern, than the western concept of prediction and fulfillment.

Many of these models are of a literal occurrence and as a predictive pattern. The classical example is that of Abraham and Issac. The more you dig into that account, the more stunning this becomes.

I think prophetic approach to patterns is more prevalent than we know. I like the model of judgement with the Flood.

You had those "raptured" before judgement. (Enoch)

You had those saved through judgement. (Noah + family)

You had those destroyed by judgement. (the rest of the world)


The Angels HAD to remove Lot BEFORE judgement could come on the unrepentant wicked. God told Abraham He would not destroy the righteous (NOT sinless) with the wicked. I believe the same will hold true for the Great Tribulation.

Yes ... I understand the pattern.

I also see Abraham as an intercessor on behalf of the people of Sodom. That there were not even 10 people so the city would be spared is sad.

Does not Christ ever live as our Intercessor ... interceding to God on our behalf. Just as Abraham interceded to God on behalf of the people of Sodom? That Lot and his daughters were spared is wholly the mercy of God.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

So explain all the times he lacked faith? And carried that lack of faith out

Nobody walked perfectly on earth other than Jesus, maybe you can go through and accuse everyone in the word that did God's will.

Why not attack

Jonah? he got in a boat to escape his duties

Moses? struck the rock twice

Abraham? doubted a old age child birth

Paul? he hunted, arrested and killed believers, ohh I bet you would never say this about Paul?

Yeah im done with this topic.

You can accuse Lot all you want, I would not advise it, but The word says:

2 Peter 2:7-8, " 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

Genesis 19:28-29, " 28 He looked off toward Sodom, Gomorrah, and the entire plain, and he saw smoke rising from the land like smoke from a furnace. 29 And so it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, He remembered Abraham and brought Lot out from the midst of the destruction when he overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

 

[Heyjude]

Nobody walked perfectly on earth other than Jesus, maybe you can go through and accuse everyone in the word that did God's will.

Why not attack

Jonah? he got in a boat to escape his duties

Moses? struck the rock twice

Abraham? doubted a old age child birth

Paul? he hunted, arrested and killed believers, ohh I bet you would never say this about Paul?

Yeah im done with this topic.

You can accuse Lot all you want, I would not advise it, but The word says:

2 Peter 2:7-8, " 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

Genesis 19:28-29, " 28 He looked off toward Sodom, Gomorrah, and the entire plain, and he saw smoke rising from the land like smoke from a furnace. 29 And so it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, He remembered Abraham and brought Lot out from the midst of the destruction when he overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

Exactly. All have sinned. even those considered "righteous" and everyone did something displeasing, foolish or bad towards God. Even Moses murdered a man and buried him in the sand. And just to show he knew what he was doing, Scripture says, he looked to the left and the right before hand to make sure nobody saw.

"After looking in all directions to make sure no one was watching, Moses killed the Egyptian and hid the body in the sand". Exodus 2:12