Was the crucifixion that Jesus endured the worst possible suffering a human could experience?

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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#41
So was the crucifixion necessary?

You mean God poured that punishment on HIMSELF, surely?
On the Son . The Father did not die on the cross. The Son really did become a man .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,940
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#42
So was the crucifixion necessary?

You mean God poured that punishment on HIMSELF, surely?
Could you elaborate on what you mean by ' poured that punishment on HIMSELF, surely?'
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
4,675
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#43
Meaning, was it the ultimate suffering that no other human would ever possibly compare to have experienced?
I like your questions. Very meaty. A lot to bite into.

Jesus' suffering was different from what any normal man can experience. Normal men will always have a God to cry out to for help in troubled times. Remember Steven when he was stoned. Remember Paul and friends as they were beaten. Remember that there were four in that fiery furnace. It was not so for Jesus...

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
4,675
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#44
So was the crucifixion necessary?

You mean God poured that punishment on HIMSELF, surely?
Yes...

Hebrews
9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
4,675
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#45
Is there any scriptural basis for that assertion?
Luke
22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
22:45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,357
588
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#46
Who HAS to suffer?
A Parent whose children have gone wayward.

And why did he ask God (himself?) why he'd been forsaken?
Because the religious leaders were mocking him as he was dying, as though God had forsaken him. So Jesus quoted Psalm 22, where King David felt forsaken. But this psalm shows that during the worst of times, God does not abandon his children.

David actually goes on to prophesy the sufferings of Jesus and the mocking of the scribes. I wonder if they realized their wrong when the Lord quoted David.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,396
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#47
Is there any scriptural basis for that assertion?
22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Lets consider this......the wrath of God poured out on one man...innocent of all charges. This wrath has been stored up since the beginning of sin entering the world.
God hates sin above all else. It is repulsive and vile to him to say the least.
The measure of pain and anguish accompanied by humility and despair beyound human endurance to be suffered untill the Lord only would dismiss his spirit and death would end its terrible grip.
No one to help, could help, the brain could not shut down causing unconsciousness to overcome the trauma.
For the christ alone had to endure the full measure of Gods stored up wrath.
 

VickyK

Active member
Jan 15, 2021
363
55
28
#48
22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Lets consider this......the wrath of God poured out on one man...innocent of all charges. This wrath has been stored up since the beginning of sin entering the world.
God hates sin above all else. It is repulsive and vile to him to say the least.
The measure of pain and anguish accompanied by humility and despair beyound human endurance to be suffered untill the Lord only would dismiss his spirit and death would end its terrible grip.
No one to help, could help, the brain could not shut down causing unconsciousness to overcome the trauma.
For the christ alone had to endure the full measure of Gods stored up wrath.
God hates?

And did Jesus not die? Or did he suffer for eternity?
 

VickyK

Active member
Jan 15, 2021
363
55
28
#49
A Parent whose children have gone wayward.

Because the religious leaders were mocking him as he was dying, as though God had forsaken him. So Jesus quoted Psalm 22, where King David felt forsaken. But this psalm shows that during the worst of times, God does not abandon his children.

David actually goes on to prophesy the sufferings of Jesus and the mocking of the scribes. I wonder if they realized their wrong when the Lord quoted David.
But I thought Jesus IS God?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
35,008
12,573
113
#51
My understanding was that Jesus is God
God in the flesh. The flesh was put to death.

To attain to life ever after, one must be born again of the Holy Spirit of God.

Thereby, the flesh is likewise crucified. Otherwise, one suffers the second and eternal death.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
6,464
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#52
Who HAS to suffer? And why did he ask God (himself?) why he'd been forsaken? My question was was Jesus' suffering disprortionate to that of others? Did he suffer any more than any other criminal sent to the cross?
Well, The God of the bible demands blood for sin. Jesus was not forsaken Read Pslams 22. Jesus' death and the method of suffering were prophesied. Jesus did not have to just die HE had to die in the way the OldTestmant said HE would. I am not able to answer in full detail all the death of Jesus represented or what it accomplished but he is a start.

His death represented :
  1. payment for sin the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23
  2. fulfillment of Prophecy Genesis 3:15, Is 53 Ps 22
  3. He came to die a vicarious Death John 3:16-18
How he was to die:

  1. On a cross Is Ps 22
  2. he was not to have any bones broken Ps34:20
The death burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus fulfilled 10 prophecies.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
5,937
2,773
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#53
Meaning, was it the ultimate suffering that no other human would ever possibly compare to have experienced?
Far from it.
The Vikings Blood Eagle
https://allthatsinteresting.com/blood-eagle

Ancient sailors had a punishment where they would tie a sailor up under the ship and force his body over the barnacles.

Then you once had the punishments of using 4 horses to rip the 4 limbs off of the victim.

Mankind has been very brutal and unfortunately creative for how to kill.

The mafia or cartel uses horrible methods today while using modern medicine to keep people alive so they can repeat the torture over and over.
 

VickyK

Active member
Jan 15, 2021
363
55
28
#54
Far from it.
The Vikings Blood Eagle
https://allthatsinteresting.com/blood-eagle

Ancient sailors had a punishment where they would tie a sailor up under the ship and force his body over the barnacles.

Then you once had the punishments of using 4 horses to rip the 4 limbs off of the victim.

Mankind has been very brutal and unfortunately creative for how to kill.

The mafia or cartel uses horrible methods today while using modern medicine to keep people alive so they can repeat the torture over and over.
Yeah I'd take the crucifixion. The purpose of crucifixion was not so much a slow, agonising death so much as a method to display the bodies, alive or not, for a length of time. It was reserved for political criminals such as Jesus and those whom were executed with him.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
7,940
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#55
My understanding was that Jesus is God
The Son . Who became flesh ,yes . Its something an atheist might say when they don't understand the trinity .That " God punished himself "
 

PC123

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2020
719
358
63
Australia
#56
So why was the crucifixion necessary?
Hi Vicky. For us humans iv always imagined being burnt alive at the stake would be the most painful...

Now to your question up here... My answer is i have no idea... LoL... Im like u... It makes no sense to us.
People will try and explain it but im not sure anyone really understands it...

God made Adam and Eve, gave them free will and they sinned. Then he kind of cursed mankind with that sin. So i don't understand why his mad in the first place at us to send Jesus. So he sends Jesus but its Him... The Trinity is a confusion. Why would you send yourself to earth to get tortured and crucified in order to save us from our sins. And how much of a sacrifice is it considering he rose again anyway...

I tried to imagine this... A criminal robbed my house and killed my wife... He sinned against me. But instead of taking him to the cops i take my only son to be tried for murder and excecuted. Like whaaaat. Does that compute in your mind? It doesn't for me. So now my wife is dead, my son is dead and the killer is still at large...

So my answer is that we have feeble minds. We can't possibly begin to comprehend everything. Its something beyond the capability of our minds. Iv only got a few things that i truly believe and i think that's all that's needed.
God welcomes children. Are they versed in scripture? Do they know doctrines? I like that child like faith. One day when were out of here it will all make sense, but for now we can either do our heads in or live our lives i reckon
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
6,464
1,803
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#57
Yeah I'd take the crucifixion. The purpose of crucifixion was not so much a slow, agonising death so much as a method to display the bodies, alive or not, for a length of time. It was reserved for political criminals such as Jesus and those whom were executed with him.
Oh no, it was very painful and agonizing Did you see the passion of Christ? there are also a scientific study done on the death of Christ and spoken by those who will tell you all he suffered from the medical position.

Jeuss was :

beaten, hit over the head with a club crown of thrones placed and drove into his head and then hit on the head. he suffered the flogging with what was known as the "cat of nine tails with rock and glass woven into the straps ripping the flesh open with one whip. He received 39. Then carry a cross with no food or water to finally be hung naked on the cross. trying to grasp for air. Finally, when he died they stuck him with A SPEAR IN HIS SIDE TO ENSURE HE WAS DEAD. This death was awful and he did it for all.
 

VickyK

Active member
Jan 15, 2021
363
55
28
#58
Oh no, it was very painful and agonizing Did you see the passion of Christ? there are also a scientific study done on the death of Christ and spoken by those who will tell you all he suffered from the medical position.

Jeuss was :

beaten, hit over the head with a club crown of thrones placed and drove into his head and then hit on the head. he suffered the flogging with what was known as the "cat of nine tails with rock and glass woven into the straps ripping the flesh open with one whip. He received 39. Then carry a cross with no food or water to finally be hung naked on the cross. trying to grasp for air. Finally, when he died they stuck him with A SPEAR IN HIS SIDE TO ENSURE HE WAS DEAD. This death was awful and he did it for all.
Was it worse than what this young lady went through? https://japaninsides.com/44-days-of...ttended a high,, in Saitama Prefecture, Japan.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
6,464
1,803
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#59
I am not sure what your point is but The death of Jesus was no walk in the park and I would not wish that on anyone. As far as the young lady and the descriptiveness provided that was a terrible death. I think you believe the death of Jesus was no big deal. And your point of this women's death surely doesn't trivialize the suffering of Christ.
 

VickyK

Active member
Jan 15, 2021
363
55
28
#60
Hi Vicky. For us humans iv always imagined being burnt alive at the stake would be the most painful...

Now to your question up here... My answer is i have no idea... LoL... Im like u... It makes no sense to us.
People will try and explain it but im not sure anyone really understands it...

God made Adam and Eve, gave them free will and they sinned. Then he kind of cursed mankind with that sin. So i don't understand why his mad in the first place at us to send Jesus. So he sends Jesus but its Him... The Trinity is a confusion. Why would you send yourself to earth to get tortured and crucified in order to save us from our sins. And how much of a sacrifice is it considering he rose again anyway...

I tried to imagine this... A criminal robbed my house and killed my wife... He sinned against me. But instead of taking him to the cops i take my only son to be tried for murder and excecuted. Like whaaaat. Does that compute in your mind? It doesn't for me. So now my wife is dead, my son is dead and the killer is still at large...

So my answer is that we have feeble minds. We can't possibly begin to comprehend everything. Its something beyond the capability of our minds. Iv only got a few things that i truly believe and i think that's all that's needed.
God welcomes children. Are they versed in scripture? Do they know doctrines? I like that child like faith. One day when were out of here it will all make sense, but for now we can either do our heads in or live our lives i reckon
If we're not capable of comprehending it how did we make a religion out of it?