Was the Garden of Eden, literally Heaven on Earth? Was the Earth already fallen except for the Garden?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,672
13,131
113
Is it suggesting there was a Big Bang before ours? Didn't Penrose say this?

Or is it only the Earth that restarts?
it wouldn't be suggesting that -- there's still "the" beginning in scripture.

Penrose's argument is "turtles all the way down" in re: the preface to that Stephen Hawking book everyone bought but no one read.
in other words a nonsense attempt at trying to hide away a problem he doesn't have an answer for by pushing it away indefinitely, to avoid the conundrum.


what's the earth on?
the back of a turtle
what's that turtle on?
another turtle
and that turtle, what's he on?

another turtle
what about him, what's he on?
another turtle
. . .
well what's at the bottom?
there's no bottom; it's turtles all the way down

ad absurdum
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
it wouldn't be suggesting that -- there's still "the" beginning in scripture.

Penrose's argument is "turtles all the way down" in re: the preface to that Stephen Hawking book everyone bought but no one read.
in other words a nonsense attempt at trying to hide away a problem he doesn't have an answer for by pushing it away indefinitely, to avoid the conundrum.


what's the earth on?
the back of a turtle
what's that turtle on?
another turtle
and that turtle, what's he on?
another turtle
what about him, what's he on?
another turtle
. . .

well what's at the bottom?
there's no bottom; it's turtles all the way down

ad absurdum
Could it be the beginning ..of this iteration of reality?
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
I thought of the below verse after reading what you wrote above. The NLT version is unbelievable.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 KJV - "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 1:9 NLT - "History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new."
If satan has been through this before, would that mean he has the general idea of what is going to happen? Would he plant stories similar to what is going to happen in the Bible to discredit it?
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
Life is a clear indicator that there is a Creator. They still can't figure out how how the first cells formed. I think we can add Dark Matter to the list. It is what holds galaxies together, but it never becomes physical ..it doesn't become real to this fallen reality. We have something that causes gravity that we can't observe. That doesn't sound natural to me.
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
I thought of the below verse after reading what you wrote above. The NLT version is unbelievable.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 KJV - "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 1:9 NLT - "History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new."
I wonder if hell could mean having to live on Earth in the next restart ..until you find God.
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
@Nehemiah6

why does God say "replenish" here?
why not "fill" ?

replenish means it used to be full and it's not anymore, and needs to be refilled.
that's very different than an earth that was created largely empty and needs to be filled for the first time.

what does this mean?
it's another Biblical support for a previous generation on earth. not to say i believe this or do not believe this, but to say that there is Biblical support
So either the Earth restarts and needs replenished or there was a previous generation in our timeline.
 
Feb 22, 2021
684
35
28
So either the Earth restarts and needs replenished or there was a previous generation in our timeline.
It means to transfigure the earth into a celestial planet. That's what It means to replenish the earth. A celestial planet is already built, perfected and cannot be lacking in anything.
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
It means to transfigure the earth into a celestial planet. That's what It means to replenish the earth. A celestial planet is already built, perfected and cannot be lacking in anything.
Then it should say "plenish" ..not "replenish"
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
The earth was not in a fallen state before the fall. Which means it was in it's perfect state. In the fall the earth became a terrestrial planet.
Hmm, I was assuming the Earth became fallen after satan was cast out. But now I wonder if it could have been from a previous iteration of the Earth.
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
The earth was not in a fallen state before the fall. Which means it was in it's perfect state. In the fall the earth became a terrestrial planet.
The Garden was in a perfect state ..but that wasn't the whole planet. I imagine God set a safe-zone on a fallen Earth. ..leaving one tree in the zone that wasn't safe. I wonder if that explains why it was in the middle.
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
Like I said, SDA's teachings are correct about certain aspects of some things, but other of their teachings are totally false.

As far as your "new ideas" are concerned, if they don't align themselves properly with rightly-divided, Holy Ghost inspired scripture (and yours DON'T), then they are to be rejected as the doctrines of demons that they actually are.

Bye...
Could the last Adam have started in the Garden of Eden, but then we lost it with the spiritual death of original sin? Did Jesus's resurrection give man the option to be spiritual again? To give us the door to open to Him?
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
Could the last Adam have started in the Garden of Eden, but then we lost it with the spiritual death of original sin? Did Jesus's resurrection give man the option to be spiritual again? To give us the door to open to Him?
lol.

How much do I have to pay people on this thread to stop quoting my posts?

30 pieces of silver?

Seriously, I've been trying my best to stay out of this thread, and I have no idea what others have been saying here because I haven't been reading any posts.

That said, although I have no idea whatsoever as to what might have prompted your question or where you're headed with it, I will quickly address something about "the last Adam" that you mentioned.

We read:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[35] But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
[37] And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
[38] But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
[39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
[41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
[46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The obvious context of what Paul is talking about here is the resurrection of the dead.

Christians who have earthly bodies shall one day have them replaced with heavenly bodies.

In this context, Paul mentions two Adams:

1. "The first man Adam" (vs. 45) or "the first man" who "is of the earth, earthy" (vs. 47).
2. "The last Adam" (vs. 45) or "the second man" who "is the Lord from heaven" (vs. 47).

He does this, contextually, because as Christians have borne earthy bodies like "the first Adam", they will one day bear heavenly bodies like "the last Adam".

Notice, however, that Jesus is called "the second man" (vs. 47).

"The second man"?

How can this be when there have been countless other men between the time of "the first Adam" and "the last Adam"?

Well, Paul explained that earlier in this same chapter, when he said:

I Corinthians chapter 15

21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Seeing how, in God's eyes, "IN ADAM ALL DIE", Christ can rightly be called "the second man" (vs. 47) in that he was born of a virgin who was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.

Anyhow, that is my understanding.

What does any of this have to do with what you're presently discussing?

I don't know because I haven't been following this thread nor do I intend to.

Anyhow, in answer to your question, assuming that I'm even properly understanding it without any knowledge of what's currently being discussed here, "NO", the last Adam could not have started in the garden of Eden.

Jesus became "the last Adam" at his incarnation when he also became "the second man".

Seriously, I've already told you (pittsburghjoe) multiple times that I deem your stated beliefs here as being antibiblical and off the wall, so please stop asking me questions.

Thank you.
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
lol.

How much do I have to pay people on this thread to stop quoting my posts?

30 pieces of silver?

Seriously, I've been trying my best to stay out of this thread, and I have no idea what others have been saying here because I haven't been reading any posts.

That said, although I have no idea whatsoever as to what might have prompted your question or where you're headed with it, I will quickly address something about "the last Adam" that you mentioned.

We read:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[35] But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
[37] And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
[38] But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
[39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
[41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
[46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The obvious context of what Paul is talking about here is the resurrection of the dead.

Christians who have earthly bodies shall one day have them replaced with heavenly bodies.

In this context, Paul mentions two Adams:

1. "The first man Adam" (vs. 45) or "the first man" who "is of the earth, earthy" (vs. 47).
2. "The last Adam" (vs. 45) or "the second man" who "is the Lord from heaven" (vs. 47).

He does this, contextually, because as Christians have borne earthy bodies like "the first Adam", they will one day bear heavenly bodies like "the last Adam".

Notice, however, that Jesus is called "the second man" (vs. 47).

"The second man"?

How can this be when there have been countless other men between the time of "the first Adam" and "the last Adam"?

Well, Paul explained that earlier in this same chapter, when he said:

I Corinthians chapter 15

21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Seeing how, in God's eyes, "IN ADAM ALL DIE", Christ can rightly be called "the second man" (vs. 47) in that he was born of a virgin who was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.

Anyhow, that is my understanding.

What does any of this have to do with what you're presently discussing?

I don't know because I haven't been following this thread nor do I intend to.

Anyhow, in answer to your question, assuming that I'm even properly understanding it without any knowledge of what's currently being discussed here, "NO", the last Adam could not have started in the garden of Eden.

Jesus became "the last Adam" at his incarnation when he also became "the second man".

Seriously, I've already told you (pittsburghjoe) multiple times that I deem your stated beliefs here as being antibiblical and off the wall, so please stop asking me questions.

Thank you.
Are you suggesting that the Son of God was not in the Garden? Why do they even bother using the word "Adam" when talking about Jesus? Is it because Jesus is in Adam? Pretty sure Jesus wasn't a human man before becoming one ..He was the Son of God.

The point being, if we can associate the last Adam with the Adam we know from the Garden then there could have been humans before him. Humans that had no chance of being saved. Humans that were part of the original creation week. It would ruin the evolution excuse.
 
Feb 22, 2021
684
35
28
The Garden was in a perfect state ..but that wasn't the whole planet. I imagine God set a safe-zone on a fallen Earth. ..leaving one tree in the zone that wasn't safe. I wonder if that explains why it was in the middle.
Eden is a heavens world. The garden of Eden that has the kind of trees you eat that will give you glory raiments is not a terrestrial tree. Eden was never in the earth. They descended into the earth after the fall, it wasn't a walk out.
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
Eden is a heavens world. The garden of Eden that has the kind of trees you eat that will give you glory raiments is not a terrestrial tree. Eden was never in the earth. They descended into the earth after the fall, it wasn't a walk out.
I was right there with you at the start of the thread, but now I'm not so sure. I screamed that Adam and Eve were not physical in the Garden in pretty much every thread I started on this site. The problem is that there needs to be something fallen in the Garden to grant Free Will. The option had to be available to Adam and Eve. If the tree was physical then I have a hard time explaining how they were able to touch and eat it. I think satan brought physicality to creation when he was cast out. It caused everything here to be fallen. The Bible says God "formed" Adam, it didn't say "created". That means God could have used fallen Earth. From dust to dust. The safe-zone was weird physics that didn't have decay, death, or entropy.
 
Feb 22, 2021
684
35
28
I was right there with you at the start of the thread, but now I'm not so sure. I screamed that Adam and Eve were not physical in the Garden in pretty much every thread I started on this site. The problem is that there needs to be something fallen in the Garden to grant Free Will. The option had to be available to Adam and Eve. If the tree was physical then I have a hard time explaining how they were able to touch and eat it. I think satan brought physicality to creation when he was cast out. It caused everything here to be fallen. The Bible says God "formed" Adam, it didn't say "created". That means God could have used fallen Earth. From dust to dust.
Man Adam and Woman Eve had physical bodies. Heaven is not a ghost world.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,672
13,131
113
The earth was not in a fallen state before the fall. Which means it was in it's perfect state. In the fall the earth became a terrestrial planet.

it's in Genesis 1:28 that we find God telling the man and the woman to "
replenish"
 
Feb 22, 2021
684
35
28
it's in Genesis 1:28 that we find God telling the man and the woman to "replenish"
Yes, the GOD who is All knowing. GOD is not reactive, HE is the GOD of Prophets. It was there, where the FULL mission of Man was revealed. But yet, the people think that it was not the mission.