Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I am going to hold back the clarification at this point for i desire for the Spirit to show you and for you to get back to me on it, even if it is not immediate.
Some things i have to hold back on as it is essential for the activity of the Holy Spirit to be included.
For now, there is much given in those few words in Post #478
Some things i have to hold back on as it is essential for the activity of the Holy Spirit to be included.
For now, there is much given in those few words in Post #478
Noah is a good biblical example used in the New Testament Noah like us is saved by faith he was saved like this
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet,
moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
Hebrews 11:7 KJV
what Noah understood about God was “ if God says anything it’s absolutely true even if I don’t see it yet it’s going to happen as God said it will happen. To hear what God said , believe it before there was any visual proof and obey Gods word based on that belief , not needing proof because the faith is already there to move us
Noah was saved by faith , but not dead faith without works.
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
James 2:26 KJV
More than that Noah was saved by grace and through faith like we are
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; ……
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
Genesis 6:5-8, 11-14, 17-18, 22 KJV
God told Noah something true that was coming and how to be saved , that requires Noah to believe and act upon without seeing. To act by faith in Gods word
God tells Noah he’s going to flood the earth and destroy everything
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet,”
Noah doesnt say “ I believe lord now I don’t need to do anything you told me to do I have faith im saved now because I believe there’s a flood coming “
instead Noah just believed what God said to him he believed a flood was coming to destroy the world based only on what God said to him. He also believed what God said would save him and bring a new covenant to him so his actions is based on “the floods coming “ so Gods instructions to Noah became very important to his salvstion and his family he took it seriously as of the flood was coming
“moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;
by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
that’s the righteousness that we need the righteousness that hears about the coming flame and destruction and takes it seriously the part he told us will save us is salvstion
we often want to define judgement and salvation but Jesus already did that the things Jesus said are about salvation and life are about salvation and life he’s the judge jury and executioner now
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:3 KJV
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
Romans 8:13 KJV
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
John 6:63 KJV
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51 KJV
“Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”
John 7:16-17 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
“Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
2 John 1:8-10 KJV
We have the instructions from the savior For salvstion we just have to start accepting them like Noah did and acting like it’s all true we don’t have to build an ark we just have to get on board but it requires us to act like it’s true because we hear and believe it
We don’t have a list of rules we have words of faith were able to hear from the lord , in the gospel believe it’s true and so we’re going to start acting like it’s true also if we really believe his word. We’re going to eventually learn from him and start applying it to life because we believe
well start letting go of grudges , dishonesty , hate , greed , pride , lust hidden in the heart ect if we let Jesus teachings until our faith to create our faith in a better way by the gospel
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet,
moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
Hebrews 11:7 KJV
what Noah understood about God was “ if God says anything it’s absolutely true even if I don’t see it yet it’s going to happen as God said it will happen. To hear what God said , believe it before there was any visual proof and obey Gods word based on that belief , not needing proof because the faith is already there to move us
Noah was saved by faith , but not dead faith without works.
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
James 2:26 KJV
More than that Noah was saved by grace and through faith like we are
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; ……
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
Genesis 6:5-8, 11-14, 17-18, 22 KJV
God told Noah something true that was coming and how to be saved , that requires Noah to believe and act upon without seeing. To act by faith in Gods word
God tells Noah he’s going to flood the earth and destroy everything
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet,”
Noah doesnt say “ I believe lord now I don’t need to do anything you told me to do I have faith im saved now because I believe there’s a flood coming “
instead Noah just believed what God said to him he believed a flood was coming to destroy the world based only on what God said to him. He also believed what God said would save him and bring a new covenant to him so his actions is based on “the floods coming “ so Gods instructions to Noah became very important to his salvstion and his family he took it seriously as of the flood was coming
“moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;
by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
that’s the righteousness that we need the righteousness that hears about the coming flame and destruction and takes it seriously the part he told us will save us is salvstion
we often want to define judgement and salvation but Jesus already did that the things Jesus said are about salvation and life are about salvation and life he’s the judge jury and executioner now
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:3 KJV
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
Romans 8:13 KJV
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
John 6:63 KJV
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51 KJV
“Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”
John 7:16-17 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
“Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
2 John 1:8-10 KJV
We have the instructions from the savior For salvstion we just have to start accepting them like Noah did and acting like it’s all true we don’t have to build an ark we just have to get on board but it requires us to act like it’s true because we hear and believe it
We don’t have a list of rules we have words of faith were able to hear from the lord , in the gospel believe it’s true and so we’re going to start acting like it’s true also if we really believe his word. We’re going to eventually learn from him and start applying it to life because we believe
well start letting go of grudges , dishonesty , hate , greed , pride , lust hidden in the heart ect if we let Jesus teachings until our faith to create our faith in a better way by the gospel
-
1
- Show all
Agreed. For example, which came first, faith or the work?
Hebrews 11:7
New International Version
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
Hebrews 11:7
New International Version
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
-
1
- Show all
Yes but in Acts 16 which came first? They first heard and believed verse 32. There is nothing that makes water holy or miracle producing. It is just water. Symbolic in nature. Symbolic in Christ's resurrection, the flood of Noah, and being reborn spiritually.
John 3:5 again is water of a woman's birth as explained in the context. One must be born in order to be reborn.
Titus 3:5 in context
Titus 3:5-6
New International Version
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
This is of the Holy Spirit not water. Poured out is a reference to the Spirit.
Infant baptism isn't Biblical. The promise is of the Holy Spirit which is the promise guarantee as such in a earnest agreement. The promise of our salvation because we are sealed within that promise.
Ephesians 1:13-14
English Standard Version
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[a] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[b] to the praise of his glory.
I growing up in a Methodist Church have seen child baptism fail as of date so many times including myself. I can tell the difference in of water and of Spirit. The Spirit happened without water and was life transforming.
Acts 19:1-7
English Standard Version
Paul in Ephesus
19 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland[a] country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
Water first for me did nothing. Only when the Spirit came upon me late at night driving on back country road going home from work.
I believe the Spirit can come at any moment either in belief, in baptism, or even after both belief and baptism as it did in Acts 19.
Believe/faith is the key in everything. Without faith we have nothing.
John 3:5 again is water of a woman's birth as explained in the context. One must be born in order to be reborn.
Titus 3:5 in context
Titus 3:5-6
New International Version
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
This is of the Holy Spirit not water. Poured out is a reference to the Spirit.
Infant baptism isn't Biblical. The promise is of the Holy Spirit which is the promise guarantee as such in a earnest agreement. The promise of our salvation because we are sealed within that promise.
Ephesians 1:13-14
English Standard Version
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[a] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[b] to the praise of his glory.
I growing up in a Methodist Church have seen child baptism fail as of date so many times including myself. I can tell the difference in of water and of Spirit. The Spirit happened without water and was life transforming.
Acts 19:1-7
English Standard Version
Paul in Ephesus
19 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland[a] country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
Water first for me did nothing. Only when the Spirit came upon me late at night driving on back country road going home from work.
I believe the Spirit can come at any moment either in belief, in baptism, or even after both belief and baptism as it did in Acts 19.
Believe/faith is the key in everything. Without faith we have nothing.
That's great. Most refuse to accept a person's sins are remitted through obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Noah's obedience to God's commands resulted in his being saved. Noah would have died along with the others had he not believed and obeyed God. Noah and his family were transported to the cleansed world via the ark and water. God's NT instructions to man involve believing in Jesus' sacrifice, repentance and water baptism in the name of Jesus. (Acts 2:1-38)
"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." Hebrews 11:7
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" Romans 6:3-6
Noah's obedience to God's commands resulted in his being saved. Noah would have died along with the others had he not believed and obeyed God. Noah and his family were transported to the cleansed world via the ark and water. God's NT instructions to man involve believing in Jesus' sacrifice, repentance and water baptism in the name of Jesus. (Acts 2:1-38)
"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." Hebrews 11:7
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" Romans 6:3-6
Your pretense is false. You require John 3:5 to be about live birth, but that's obviously the same mistake Nicodemus made. Please go back and read the context. Jesus is saying that being born of "water and Spirit" is necessary to enter the kingdom of God and that being born of flesh is of no value. The only interpretation that makes sense is water baptism and there is further scriptural support for water baptism.
John 3:4-6
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Like Nicodemus, your interpretation is wrong. Washing of rebirth is the being "born of water and Spirit" Jesus talked about in John 3:5 and it's about water baptism and spiritual rebirth.
The gospel includes water baptism. When they talk about "the gospel of you salvation that you believed in" it undoubtedly includes water baptism because Jesus said so.
Mark 16:15-16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
I agree with your bottom line, but you clearly don't seem to understand the purpose of water baptism and it's because you're misunderstanding the scriptures. Many people here are trying to show you the Biblical perspective concerning this topic.
John 3:4-6
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Like Nicodemus, your interpretation is wrong. Washing of rebirth is the being "born of water and Spirit" Jesus talked about in John 3:5 and it's about water baptism and spiritual rebirth.
The gospel includes water baptism. When they talk about "the gospel of you salvation that you believed in" it undoubtedly includes water baptism because Jesus said so.
Mark 16:15-16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
I agree with your bottom line, but you clearly don't seem to understand the purpose of water baptism and it's because you're misunderstanding the scriptures. Many people here are trying to show you the Biblical perspective concerning this topic.
FreeGrace2 said:
That's what your posts sure sound like.
True. Where do you find water baptism for salvation in Genesis?
In the early development of the church, things weren't uniform. On the day of Pentecost, ALL Jewish believers received the Holy Spirit.
It was not uniform for Gentiles though. In Acts 10, Gentiles received the Holy Spirit upon belief in the gospel, BEFORE they were water baptized. However, there were Gentile believers in Acts 19 that Paul had to lay his hands on before they received the Holy Spirit.
But, by the time Paul wrote Galatians, he was very clear about how EVERYONE received the Holy Spirit: through faith.
Gal 3:2,5 says so plainly.
Go ahead and ignore Cornelius and his family/friends. Doesn't matter. By Gal 3:2,5 EVERYONE receives the Holy Spirit by faith.
Who is arguing with this? And that's not the issue, as I believe you actually know.
It is a command for WHAT, exactly? Or, WHY is it commanded? Please answer.
You need to be more clear about what you actually mean.
To be saved, we know that "God is pleased to save those who believe", per 1 Cor 1:21. That's how to be accepted by God. Believe what He commands.
Acts 17:30 - In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
That's what your posts sure sound like.
True. Where do you find water baptism for salvation in Genesis?
In the early development of the church, things weren't uniform. On the day of Pentecost, ALL Jewish believers received the Holy Spirit.
It was not uniform for Gentiles though. In Acts 10, Gentiles received the Holy Spirit upon belief in the gospel, BEFORE they were water baptized. However, there were Gentile believers in Acts 19 that Paul had to lay his hands on before they received the Holy Spirit.
But, by the time Paul wrote Galatians, he was very clear about how EVERYONE received the Holy Spirit: through faith.
Gal 3:2,5 says so plainly.
Go ahead and ignore Cornelius and his family/friends. Doesn't matter. By Gal 3:2,5 EVERYONE receives the Holy Spirit by faith.
Who is arguing with this? And that's not the issue, as I believe you actually know.
It is a command for WHAT, exactly? Or, WHY is it commanded? Please answer.
You need to be more clear about what you actually mean.
To be saved, we know that "God is pleased to save those who believe", per 1 Cor 1:21. That's how to be accepted by God. Believe what He commands.
Acts 17:30 - In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Believing is repenting. You cannot separate them
I believe some people forget that the Spirit of God is God and is not like a genie where we do this certain task to bring forth the Spirit.
The Spirit entered and manifested Himself throughout the OT and NT in different ways. Sometimes in the NT is was with baptism and sometimes, it came before or after.
Churches have to remember that making a doctrine of baptism forces us to think of the Spirit in a nicely controlled box. Same with the gifts as to why some churches pick and choose what gifts to allow.
The Spirit operates within its will and God's timing while knowing the if the heart is truly seeking Him.
-
1
-
1
- Show all