Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

[SomeDisciple]

"There he (Paul) found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?” (Acts 19:1-2) Why would the Apostle Paul ask this question if a person receives the Holy Spirit the moment they believe? He would not.

This might not be the best example, because being disciples of John the Baptist- they don't know the whole Gospel. They are "believers" but the gospel to them is "repent: the messiah, whoever he is, is coming and will do some stuff".

Acts 8 does demonstrate that it's not necessarily immediate, though.

 

[BeeThePeace]

This might not be the best example, because being disciples of John the Baptist- they don't know the whole Gospel. They are "believers" but the gospel to them is "repent: the messiah, whoever he is, is coming and will do some stuff".

Acts 8 does demonstrate that it's not necessarily immediate, though.

(ESV) Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

[SomeDisciple]

when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Yeah, that's how it went down in Ephesus, in Acts 19. It doesn't mean that's how it always goes down for everyone, everywhere. As you can see in Acts 8.

 

[DavidTree]

The men in Ephesus were taught by Apollos, who only knew the baptism of John (Acts 18:24-25). They had never heard of the Holy Spirit. Paul taught them that they should believe on him (Jesus) who came after John.


Your holier-than-thou condescension is quite offputting at times.

Actually, your statement means that you assume you are so holy that you have no need of prayer.
Whenever someone mentions prayer to me i accept that as the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.

Peace

 

[Beckie]

Acts 19.
I remember Jesus began his ministry after being baotized by John the baptizer.

Wow you are very very old..

 

[BeeThePeace]

Yeah, that's how it went down in Ephesus, in Acts 19. It doesn't mean that's how it always goes down for everyone, everywhere. As you can see in Acts 8.

Well, we are led to Jesus by God's calling. We are given the free irrevocable gift of faith and salvation by God. We are sealed with the holy spirit as God wills.

And no human alive is able to argue when God executes his will upon whom he has called to himself through his son.

Unfortunately, this is not known by many. So they try to put human constraints and step by step layers of order upon salvation.
Do this, must do that or else ....

That's extra biblical and extra gospel.

How about be at peace secure in your salvation and not be so invested in telling everyone else we have to see salvations "steps" the way you do in order to be saved.

 

[SomeDisciple]

How about be at peace secure in your salvation and not be so invested in telling everyone else we have to see salvations "steps" the way you do in order to be saved.

I agree to some extent. But, I mean, if I genuinely thought that you had to eat Jesus' physical body and drink his blood to be saved, I would probably insist on telling people that until someone explained to me why that's not the case.

Unfortunately, this is not known by many. So they try to put human constraints and step by step layers of order upon salvation.
Do this, must do that or else ....

Well Acts 2:38, depending on how you read it/ translate it, can imply that water Baptism is how sins are remitted. "...be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins". If this "constraint" is in the scriptures, then it's not a "human constraint" unless the scriptures are somehow being misunderstood.

 

[Beckie]

I agree to some extent. But, I mean, if I genuinely thought that you had to eat Jesus' physical body and drink his blood to be saved, I would probably insist on telling people that until someone explained to me why that's not the case.


Well Acts 2:38, depending on how you read it/ translate it, can imply that water Baptism is how sins are remitted. "...be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins". If this "constraint" is in the scriptures, then it's not a "human constraint" unless the scriptures are somehow being misunderstood.

Are we to read and understand the Scriptures separate from one another or learn the context of the Whole?

 

[Nehemiah6]

If this "constraint" is in the scriptures, then it's not a "human constraint" unless the scriptures are somehow being misunderstood.

Yes. The Scriptures are definitely being misunderstood, because too many do not want to give up their false ideas.

Did Jesus say in Luke 24:47 that it was repentance that was necessary for the remission of sins, or did He say it was baptism? Did Peter say the same thing in Acts 3:19 even though it appears different in Acts 2:38? Is repentance internal while water is external? Did Christ say that salvation had come to Zacchaeus and the thief of the cross because of their repentance, with no mention of baptism? Did the people in the house of Cornelius receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism or after? So all this nonsense about baptism being necessary for salvation or for resurrection is just that -- total nonsense.

 

[Wansvic]

Acts 19.
I remember Jesus began his ministry after being baotized by John the baptizer.

Comparing Paul's observations about John's baptism, when Jesus sought out John, may make someone consider Paul's remarks in a new light. Being, if true what Paul says applies to Jesus first since he was baptized before Paul ,who stated also he did not come to baptize, made this sermon.

Jesus didn't baptize people. Yet, the thief who believed in Jesus and was on the cross beside him, was saved by Jesus when the thief confessed his faith to Jesus.
No baptism, just faith.

And if baptism were mandatory to be saved and be with God, I imagine Jesus would have not only preached that in his gospel teaching,but would have baptized people too.

Interestingly, Paul stated he did not come to baptize. If baptism is mandatory, Paul was remiss in th8nking he was spreading only half the gospel when he didn't baptize people to aecure that full part of the civenant.

And Jesus, who was the living sacrifice for the salvation of the world, dud not baptize anyone.

The thief died under the OT. Obedience to water baptism in Jesus' name is a NT command in association with Jesus' sacrifice. It was begun on the Day of Pentecost as prophesied by Jesus. (Luke 24:47)

Paul's interaction with the Ephesus disciples occurred over 20 years after the message was initially given by Peter at Pentecost. (Acts 2:38)

Jesus did preach the need to be baptized. (Matt. 28:19, Mark 16:15-16, John 3:3-5)

The following shows John the Baptist knew he needed to be baptized in the Holy Ghost. And Jesus' actions show water baptism was required as well:
"But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” 15“Let it be so now,” Jesus replied. “It is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness in this way.” Then John permitted Him. (Matt. 3:14-15)

The Apostle Paul did water baptize people. Therefore baptism was part of the message he preached. What is clear is that at times others baptized individuals. It appears what his statement conveys is his primary ministry was to preach the message: Acts 16:28-33 Jailer/family, Acts 16:14-15 Lydia/family, Acts 18:8 Crispus, (Paul baptized this leader of the synagogue/Someone else baptized members of Crispus’ household and other Corinthian believers) Gaius baptized by Paul as well.

Scripture is silent as to why Jesus did not water baptize people. However, someone shared that if He had, it would have caused confusion. People would have thought receiving the Holy Ghost and being water baptized were one in the same experience.

 

[DavidTree]

There appears to be more than one seemingly committed to an effort here to try and tell Christian members we're not really Christian or saved.

It seems they misstate the bible in that effort while not really knowing it themselves. They repeat themselves. Like they're in a rut, have clipped together certain passages they intend to use to make their point.

When those excerpts don't work they repeat themselves in a different way. But they continue to refer to their same verse choices.

Where the disciples in Acts 19 saved by their faith in the Gospel BEFORE the Apostle Paul met them?

 

[Beckie]

The thief died under the OT. Obedience to water baptism in Jesus' name is a NT command in association with Jesus' sacrifice. It was begun on the Day of Pentecost as prophesied by Jesus. (Luke 24:47)

Did the thief get off his cross find a priest bring a sin offering to be sacrificed before he died?

 

[Wansvic]

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The problem in Acts 19 was that the men only knew the baptism of John. They had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, they had never heard of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Eph. 1:13 - what was the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation? See Acts 19:1-6, 2:2-41.

Paul's question, in and of itself, makes the point the Holy Ghost is not automatically received when a person believes.

 

[SomeDisciple]

It was begun on the Day of Pentecost as prophesied by Jesus. (Luke 24:47)

How do you say that it was prophesied by Jesus?
Here's LK24
4And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem

He's explaining what is in the scriptures, and nothing here says anything about baptism.

 

[DavidTree]

The thief died under the OT. Obedience to water baptism in Jesus' name is a NT command in association with Jesus' sacrifice. It was begun on the Day of Pentecost as prophesied by Jesus. (Luke 24:47)

Paul's interaction with the Ephesus disciples occurred over 20 years after the message was initially given by Peter at Pentecost. (Acts 2:38)

Jesus did preach the need to be baptized. (Matt. 28:19, Mark 16:15-16, John 3:3-5)

The following shows John the Baptist knew he needed to be baptized in the Holy Ghost. And Jesus' actions show water baptism was required as well:
"But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” 15“Let it be so now,” Jesus replied. “It is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness in this way.” Then John permitted Him. (Matt. 3:14-15)

The Apostle Paul did water baptize people. Therefore baptism was part of the message he preached. What is clear is that at times others baptized individuals. It appears what his statement conveys is his primary ministry was to preach the message: Acts 16:28-33 Jailer/family, Acts 16:14-15 Lydia/family, Acts 18:8 Crispus, (Paul baptized this leader of the synagogue/Someone else baptized members of Crispus’ household and other Corinthian believers) Gaius baptized by Paul as well.

Scripture is silent as to why Jesus did not water baptize people. However, someone shared that if He had, it would have caused confusion. People would have thought receiving the Holy Ghost and being water baptized were one in the same experience.

The thief NEVER died under OT - this is so WRONG to even say such a thing.

The theif on the cross next to the NEW TESTAMENT confessed to the NEW TESTAMENT and the NEW TESTAMENT said:
"this day you will be with ME...."

 

[Wansvic]

This might not be the best example, because being disciples of John the Baptist- they don't know the whole Gospel. They are "believers" but the gospel to them is "repent: the messiah, whoever he is, is coming and will do some stuff".

Acts 8 does demonstrate that it's not necessarily immediate, though.

Paul's question alone makes the point that believing does not automatically provide one with the Holy Ghost.

Your reference to Acts 8 does demonstrate this truth.

Another confirming scripture is presented by Jesus in Luke 11:13,
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

 

[VARob]

Eph. 1:13 - what was the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation? See Acts 19:1-6, 2:2-41.

Paul's question, in and of itself, makes the point the Holy Ghost is not automatically received when a person believes.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is received the moment a person hears and believes the gospel (Eph 1:13), "that Jesus Christ died for our sins, that he was buried, and rose again on the third day." (1 Cor 15:3-4). Also see Rom 10:9.

 

[BeeThePeace]

Paul's question alone makes the point that believing does not automatically provide one with the Holy Ghost.

Your reference to Acts 8 does demonstrate this truth.

Another confirming scripture is presented by Jesus in Luke 11:13,
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

This again omits context and other scriptures that prove upon entering into the gift of God's faith and Salvation we receive, are sealed, with the holy spirit. That is God and his promise.

A false gospel is not the gospel of Christ. You're wrong. Yet will not face that.
God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven .

 

[SomeDisciple]

The thief NEVER died under OT - this is so WRONG to even say such a thing.

Well, I think it is fair enough to say that he died while the OT was still in effect; Hebrews 9 suggests that the NT didn't take effect at least until Jesus ascended to heaven.

 

[Wansvic]

Yeah, that's how it went down in Ephesus, in Acts 19. It doesn't mean that's how it always goes down for everyone, everywhere. As you can see in Acts 8.

What many fail to realize is that believing the gospel includes accepting the requirements stated as necessary. The initial gospel message presented by Peter in Acts 2 shows those who believed in Jesus asking what was required of them. Acts 2:38 was their answer. Repent, and be baptized in Jesus' name and receive the Holy Ghost. Verses 40 and 41 show the result of their obedience: 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Paul also told the Ephesus disciples about Jesus and baptized them in the name of the Lord Jesus. Afterward he laid hands upon them and they received the Holy Ghost.