We were Predestined by God
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J
Has anybody noticed something so "strange" about message boards? I'm very close to the Christian community, and have not heard a single sermon preaching hyper-Calvinism for years, I believe no more than two times in my entire life heard anybody go there. It's not an issue in the real world. Most Presbyterians I've known reject hyper-Calvinism.
I've never heard a sermon on eternal insecurity of the believer. It's not an issue in the real world. Now, granted, I'm not congregating with cults or, as best possible, the lukewarm, but what is it about message boards where there are those who are vigorously trying to put forth false doctrines that aren't an issue in real life congregations? Or trotting out heresies, dead a couple millennia ago? Could it be an anonymous login is the perfect environment to loose the tares? I know nobody, but nobody, on a Johnny-one-note crusade to contradict scripture and try to create doubt.
Have you not seen there are people here who repeat themselves, who are making the same point, in hundreds of posts? Who, in fact, make everything about themselves and their private interpretations, that refute centuries of accepted Reformed Christian beliefs and the teachings of a long line of faithful, fundamentalist, seminarian pastors, who all agree by the Spirit? The admitted Lone Rangers here who don't even rate a cult congregation, who have their private religions, that spend their lives disputing truth here?
I've never known anybody, of any stripe, in the real life Christian community who repeats the same thing hundreds of times to everybody, like, every time you see them, tells you that you could lose your salvation. If a real congregation knew anybody like this, there would be general agreement, hands down, that person is completely nuts, autistic or something. So, just what's the point of communicating with people like that? If you've heard it for the 500th time, isn't that about enough?
I just don't get, don't see what's even intelligent about an endless, repetitive debate and cloned threads, am not finding anything even slightly edifying in it.
1 Timothy 6:4-5 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
I've never heard a sermon on eternal insecurity of the believer. It's not an issue in the real world. Now, granted, I'm not congregating with cults or, as best possible, the lukewarm, but what is it about message boards where there are those who are vigorously trying to put forth false doctrines that aren't an issue in real life congregations? Or trotting out heresies, dead a couple millennia ago? Could it be an anonymous login is the perfect environment to loose the tares? I know nobody, but nobody, on a Johnny-one-note crusade to contradict scripture and try to create doubt.
Have you not seen there are people here who repeat themselves, who are making the same point, in hundreds of posts? Who, in fact, make everything about themselves and their private interpretations, that refute centuries of accepted Reformed Christian beliefs and the teachings of a long line of faithful, fundamentalist, seminarian pastors, who all agree by the Spirit? The admitted Lone Rangers here who don't even rate a cult congregation, who have their private religions, that spend their lives disputing truth here?
I've never known anybody, of any stripe, in the real life Christian community who repeats the same thing hundreds of times to everybody, like, every time you see them, tells you that you could lose your salvation. If a real congregation knew anybody like this, there would be general agreement, hands down, that person is completely nuts, autistic or something. So, just what's the point of communicating with people like that? If you've heard it for the 500th time, isn't that about enough?
I just don't get, don't see what's even intelligent about an endless, repetitive debate and cloned threads, am not finding anything even slightly edifying in it.
1 Timothy 6:4-5 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
J
Yes, foreknowledge an attribute of the God's transcendence of time, which has nothing to do with faith by compulsion. Scripture's clear God would have all saved and whosoever may respond to His call, though He knows not all are going to, and knows the ends in this matter. It's like the same omniscience that God knows what the antichrist is going to do, in great detail, while having nothing to do with those actions and the will to do evil behind them.
J
Almighty God is so very great and expansive, if it weren't sad it would be amusing, all the things people write that bring God down to the ways of man, the thoughts of man, the doctrines of man, when He is, obviously, bigger than the entire universe He created by His Word, that He put together like building blocks He didn't even need to touch! This to include all those concepts like infinity we can only vaguely grasp, as creatures in time. God is BIG, and, no, is not for a minute surprised or fooled by a scintilla of anything. Adrian Rogers once said that, though the world is in turmoil, with all its emergency meetings, man confused and frantically trying to figure out what next, God isn't having any emergency meetings in heaven.
A chosen sent one involves a direct intervention by Christ Himself in one's life, influencing their choice and will, Christ's Apostles, the prophets, and OT patriarchs being the example.
A called one is like when you first hear The Gospel, you have an inner feeling that God wants you in His service, and then you choose of your own will to believe, and He then touches you beyond a doubt.
A called one is like when you first hear The Gospel, you have an inner feeling that God wants you in His service, and then you choose of your own will to believe, and He then touches you beyond a doubt.
"We True Believers were Predestined by God to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saver. He chose us first, we did not chose Him."
I shall try, and clear this up, best I can. Ken's statement (er this part I quoted), Starts out on a bad note. Is not that being predestined makes anyone a more truer believer, then any other believer.
Picture, if you will, the Parable of the prodigal son. Only, in this interpretation, let's focus on the "other" son. The son who has been working in the fields.
(or?)
Let's take into consideration another parable of Jesus, in which the "farmer" has much to harvest and hires "workers" to harvest, and finds that he needs to hire more to harvest then the help he has hired. And so, he continues this "hiring" until ALL has been harvested.
When the time comes to be "paid", The ones who have been working the longest in the fields, are pretty "disgruntled" upon finding that the "new hires" are getting the same amount, as they were. What did Jesus say the "farmer" did? (13) (Matt-20) "Friend, I did thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny?" (15) "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?"
And this is what happens with/to those of us (at the first, anyways) who have been working longer! We get the "big" head (vanity), we thinks we know it all! WE don't!! Have we "known" the "farmer", or worked for him longer? Yes indeedy, Petey! But longer does NOT equate to better (truer).
So it is with predestination! In an "eternity past" (earth/heaven age/s), we chose to be/fight FOR/STAND WITH the Father, when satan put forth his conspiricy theory, THEN! Just as it is in this "current" eternity (not passed, yet).
We are born of water, into this world (age) just like everyone else!
What makes it tougher on us, however, is that we are less likely to be deceived, but, in our youth, we seem to be the only ones that don't know this (we don't know, why we can't conform, or, WHY we can't perform). And, this is what causes all these "head/heart" related maladies, and illnesses, in the eyes of men, that are seen as illness, that must be cured with "pharmicia" er, "G.M.O's", but, are in fact satans' way/s of "delaying his inevitable demise". Is not all he has in his "bag 'o tricks"......But.....it's a big one!
Do ye not think that the Father who "predestines" a person, has not placed him/her in such a way so as to GUARANTEE their acceptance into Christ?
I shall try, and clear this up, best I can. Ken's statement (er this part I quoted), Starts out on a bad note. Is not that being predestined makes anyone a more truer believer, then any other believer.
Picture, if you will, the Parable of the prodigal son. Only, in this interpretation, let's focus on the "other" son. The son who has been working in the fields.
(or?)
Let's take into consideration another parable of Jesus, in which the "farmer" has much to harvest and hires "workers" to harvest, and finds that he needs to hire more to harvest then the help he has hired. And so, he continues this "hiring" until ALL has been harvested.
When the time comes to be "paid", The ones who have been working the longest in the fields, are pretty "disgruntled" upon finding that the "new hires" are getting the same amount, as they were. What did Jesus say the "farmer" did? (13) (Matt-20) "Friend, I did thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny?" (15) "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?"
And this is what happens with/to those of us (at the first, anyways) who have been working longer! We get the "big" head (vanity), we thinks we know it all! WE don't!! Have we "known" the "farmer", or worked for him longer? Yes indeedy, Petey! But longer does NOT equate to better (truer).
So it is with predestination! In an "eternity past" (earth/heaven age/s), we chose to be/fight FOR/STAND WITH the Father, when satan put forth his conspiricy theory, THEN! Just as it is in this "current" eternity (not passed, yet).
We are born of water, into this world (age) just like everyone else!
What makes it tougher on us, however, is that we are less likely to be deceived, but, in our youth, we seem to be the only ones that don't know this (we don't know, why we can't conform, or, WHY we can't perform). And, this is what causes all these "head/heart" related maladies, and illnesses, in the eyes of men, that are seen as illness, that must be cured with "pharmicia" er, "G.M.O's", but, are in fact satans' way/s of "delaying his inevitable demise". Is not all he has in his "bag 'o tricks"......But.....it's a big one!
Do ye not think that the Father who "predestines" a person, has not placed him/her in such a way so as to GUARANTEE their acceptance into Christ?
Romans 3:10-11
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
God clearly says NO ONE seeks after Him. Its God who seeks after us, not the other way around.
Most people hate the fact God seeks us first long before He created anything. It puts God in charge and not themselves.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
God clearly says NO ONE seeks after Him. Its God who seeks after us, not the other way around.
Most people hate the fact God seeks us first long before He created anything. It puts God in charge and not themselves.
Why is it every time a person quotes from Scriptures exactly what God says, so called Brothers come out of the woodwork claiming we are following John Calvin?
Could it be these people are not following what God says and are instead listening to the World and not the Holy Spirit?
I find it appalling that so many so called Brothers in Christ see nothing wrong with perverting the Word of God for their own glory.
Could it be these people are not following what God says and are instead listening to the World and not the Holy Spirit?
I find it appalling that so many so called Brothers in Christ see nothing wrong with perverting the Word of God for their own glory.
1 & 2) They would rather believe what other people say about it, then, check it out for themselves, with an open mind and heart. Lest they stray away from some general consensus. Unfortunately, this makes many "C.I.N.O.'s (emphasis on NAME ONLY). Elstwise, why are so many people getting rich, writing n selling books explaining things to them?
I can just see 'em, a standing in front of the Father, and Him asking 'em, " Well?"...."What do ya think about Me?" And the answer being, "Uhhhh....Ummmm.....Lemme get that book from such n such.", er asking God, "Ya got Wi-Fi here?"
K
No because there is a way that the Word of God actually defines things when you use scripture to interpret scripture and have the Holy Spirit as your guide, and there is a way that John Calvin defined scripture.
When a person is going by how Calvin defined it and not how the Word of God actually defines it, then we can easily discern between the two thanks be to God !!!
Actually what you are saying Kennethc is its what you want the Scriptures to say that counts, not what the Holy Spirit says.
And for the record John Calvin knew much more about the Scriptures and what God said then you do Kennethc. You are not the final authority on what the Scriptures say. Just because you do not like what God says does not give you the right to put down a True Christian like Calvin. Just remember he was with Martin Luther and it was by him and others that today you have the right to read and study the Scriptures without having to ask permission from the Catholic Church.
Just remember, if it were not for John Calvin and others you would not have the Bible today to read and study!
And for the record John Calvin knew much more about the Scriptures and what God said then you do Kennethc. You are not the final authority on what the Scriptures say. Just because you do not like what God says does not give you the right to put down a True Christian like Calvin. Just remember he was with Martin Luther and it was by him and others that today you have the right to read and study the Scriptures without having to ask permission from the Catholic Church.
Just remember, if it were not for John Calvin and others you would not have the Bible today to read and study!
If John Calvin were alive today, I don't think he would hold to some of the interpretations he had back then.
What he missed about the Biblical idea of predestination, is not being fully aware of the John 17 Scripture which reveals more of our Lord Jesus' idea that many are called, but few are chosen.
Look at Apostle Paul for the main example:
Per Acts 9, Paul (then called Saul) was deceived with following the Pharisees. He was a Hebrew scholar, and spoke several languages. Yet he was on the way to Damascus to hunt down Christians and bring them to Jerusalem for trial in chains, when Jesus appeared to him and removed all doubt.
That means DIRECT INTERVENTION by The LORD. When Jesus appeared to Ananias about Paul, He told him that Paul was His "chosen vessel".
So why hasn't our Lord Jesus done that for all us, directly intervened to turn us to Him, our not using our own will?
Yet there have been many that believed on Him by their own free will choice once they heard The Gospel preached by others, especially when preached by His chosen sent ones, His Apostles.
And then there have been some of those that once believed that have fallen away from Christ, no longer even believing there is a God. That cannot ever happen to one who is chosen by Christ though.
In John 17, our Lord showed how The Father owned beforehand His chosen ones, like the Apostles. This is why Jesus could go up to His Apostles at the start of His Ministry and say 'follow Me', and they got up and followed, asking no question. It's because The Father gave those chosen to Christ as He said in John 17. It's about ownership.
This is also how it could be with Paul who was in the very act of persecuting Christ's Church when our Lord Jesus struck him down personally and began Paul's chosen duty he was ordained for. Jesus already owned him, it just wasn't time yet for Paul's commission until that day.
Same with Moses. Moses was raised in the house of Pharaoh, and learned in all the ways of the Egyptians. It was not until after he slew the Egyptian and had to flee, and went up on Mount Sinai that The LORD directly intervened in his life, bringing Moses into his chosen duty he was ordained for.
If The LORD did that for Moses, then why not all of us who have believed on Christ?
With Jonah, God chose him to go preach to those at Nineveh. Jonah tried to get out of that duty, even jumped overboard to kill himself. God caused the great fish to spit Jonah right upon the shores of Nineveh. Then after Jonah fulfilled his chosen duty, he sat under a tree and looked at what would become of those he preached to at Nineveh. They turned to God and Jonah became angry. God made the tree Jonah sat under flourish, giving him shade and Jonah fell asleep. Then the next day when the sun came up, God made the leaves go back to make the tree bare, with the hot sun beading down upon Jonah's head. Jonah was chosen, and God forced him to fulfill his chosen duty, which again, showed God's ownership of Jonah.
If God did that with Jonah, then why not with all believers? It's because most of us are called only, but not a chosen sent one.
We will not find out exactly why many are called, but only few are chosen until after our Lord Jesus' future second coming. We can have supposition, but that's all it will be.
What's important to note is how Christ's chosen had the need to keep warning us to not be deceived, and keep our walk in Him, and not fall away. This because it is possible for one not chosen to be deceived, and fall away from Christ.
So there is a difference between a called one, and a chosen one, like our Lord Jesus said, for many are called but few are chosen.
His chosen cannot be deceived.
The many called, can be.
Our Lord Jesus' desire, per John 17, is that we all... become one in Him and The Father.
If I were a chosen sent one, I wouldn't claim it, because I would be wary of pride and thinking that I have no need to work out my salvation with fear and trembling like Paul said. It's better to stay on watch, watching, and stay in His Word. I've never seen Jesus, not in person, not in dream or vision. So I have no authority to claim to be a chosen sent one. But there's still time in the future when I may be chosen to fulfill some important duty for Him when He may appear to me and tell me what that is. Until then, I know I'm only called, and I can fall away from Him IF I allow myself to do that.
What he missed about the Biblical idea of predestination, is not being fully aware of the John 17 Scripture which reveals more of our Lord Jesus' idea that many are called, but few are chosen.
Look at Apostle Paul for the main example:
Per Acts 9, Paul (then called Saul) was deceived with following the Pharisees. He was a Hebrew scholar, and spoke several languages. Yet he was on the way to Damascus to hunt down Christians and bring them to Jerusalem for trial in chains, when Jesus appeared to him and removed all doubt.
That means DIRECT INTERVENTION by The LORD. When Jesus appeared to Ananias about Paul, He told him that Paul was His "chosen vessel".
So why hasn't our Lord Jesus done that for all us, directly intervened to turn us to Him, our not using our own will?
Yet there have been many that believed on Him by their own free will choice once they heard The Gospel preached by others, especially when preached by His chosen sent ones, His Apostles.
And then there have been some of those that once believed that have fallen away from Christ, no longer even believing there is a God. That cannot ever happen to one who is chosen by Christ though.
In John 17, our Lord showed how The Father owned beforehand His chosen ones, like the Apostles. This is why Jesus could go up to His Apostles at the start of His Ministry and say 'follow Me', and they got up and followed, asking no question. It's because The Father gave those chosen to Christ as He said in John 17. It's about ownership.
This is also how it could be with Paul who was in the very act of persecuting Christ's Church when our Lord Jesus struck him down personally and began Paul's chosen duty he was ordained for. Jesus already owned him, it just wasn't time yet for Paul's commission until that day.
Same with Moses. Moses was raised in the house of Pharaoh, and learned in all the ways of the Egyptians. It was not until after he slew the Egyptian and had to flee, and went up on Mount Sinai that The LORD directly intervened in his life, bringing Moses into his chosen duty he was ordained for.
If The LORD did that for Moses, then why not all of us who have believed on Christ?
With Jonah, God chose him to go preach to those at Nineveh. Jonah tried to get out of that duty, even jumped overboard to kill himself. God caused the great fish to spit Jonah right upon the shores of Nineveh. Then after Jonah fulfilled his chosen duty, he sat under a tree and looked at what would become of those he preached to at Nineveh. They turned to God and Jonah became angry. God made the tree Jonah sat under flourish, giving him shade and Jonah fell asleep. Then the next day when the sun came up, God made the leaves go back to make the tree bare, with the hot sun beading down upon Jonah's head. Jonah was chosen, and God forced him to fulfill his chosen duty, which again, showed God's ownership of Jonah.
If God did that with Jonah, then why not with all believers? It's because most of us are called only, but not a chosen sent one.
We will not find out exactly why many are called, but only few are chosen until after our Lord Jesus' future second coming. We can have supposition, but that's all it will be.
What's important to note is how Christ's chosen had the need to keep warning us to not be deceived, and keep our walk in Him, and not fall away. This because it is possible for one not chosen to be deceived, and fall away from Christ.
So there is a difference between a called one, and a chosen one, like our Lord Jesus said, for many are called but few are chosen.
His chosen cannot be deceived.
The many called, can be.
Our Lord Jesus' desire, per John 17, is that we all... become one in Him and The Father.
If I were a chosen sent one, I wouldn't claim it, because I would be wary of pride and thinking that I have no need to work out my salvation with fear and trembling like Paul said. It's better to stay on watch, watching, and stay in His Word. I've never seen Jesus, not in person, not in dream or vision. So I have no authority to claim to be a chosen sent one. But there's still time in the future when I may be chosen to fulfill some important duty for Him when He may appear to me and tell me what that is. Until then, I know I'm only called, and I can fall away from Him IF I allow myself to do that.
How can one WORK out their Salvation when Salvation is a free gift from God by Faith and Grace?
What is there to work out? Either you have Faith and Grace and Salvation or you do not have Faith and Grace and Salvation.
Philippians 2:12-13
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
You need to quote verse 13 also. In verse 13 Paul goes on to explain its God who is working out your Salvation. We are to iron or work out our problems we encounter in our walk with Jesus. The working out is not about working for your Salvation because God says in Ephesians 2:8 that Salvation in not received by works.
You see this is the problem with most people today, they really do not know how to study and understand the Scriptures.
God does not say out of one corner of His mouth to work out your Salvation and out of the other corner of His mouth say Salvation is not by works.
The problem here is not God but other people who refuse to take the time to really study and get down in the Scriptures to see what God is really saying.
What is there to work out? Either you have Faith and Grace and Salvation or you do not have Faith and Grace and Salvation.
Philippians 2:12-13
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
You need to quote verse 13 also. In verse 13 Paul goes on to explain its God who is working out your Salvation. We are to iron or work out our problems we encounter in our walk with Jesus. The working out is not about working for your Salvation because God says in Ephesians 2:8 that Salvation in not received by works.
You see this is the problem with most people today, they really do not know how to study and understand the Scriptures.
God does not say out of one corner of His mouth to work out your Salvation and out of the other corner of His mouth say Salvation is not by works.
The problem here is not God but other people who refuse to take the time to really study and get down in the Scriptures to see what God is really saying.