What about all of the serious WARNINGS to the churches?

[AtonedFor]

Rom 2:6-9 --- God will give eternal life to those who persistently continue in going good,
------------- but wrath and anger to the selfish who do not obey the truth and follow evil.
Rom 8:13-14 - If you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the
------------- Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live
------------- (for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God).
Rom 12:1-2 -- It is the good, acceptable, perfect will of God that you present your bodies
------------- as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God (its your reasonable service).
1 Cor 6:9-10- Do not be deceived, unrighteous sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 9:27 -- Paul disciplined his body unto subjection so he would not be disqualified.
1 Cor 12:12 - Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
1 Cor 15:1-2- You are saved by the gospel, if you hold fast that word
------------- which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
2 Cor 11:3 -- Satan deceived Eve by his craftiness, so beware that your minds
------------- may not be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2 Cor 13:5 ---Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith, maybe you are disqualified.
Gal 5:19-21 --Those who practice works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:24 ---- To belong to Christ, crucify the passions and desires of the flesh.
Gal 6:7-9 --- Do not be deceived, God is not mocked - he who sows to his flesh will
------------- reap corruption, and he who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life,
------------- if he does not lose heart.
Eph 5:3-6 -- -Do not be deceived, no sinner has any inheritance in the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:8-9 --- Walk as children of light, finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.
Eph 5:26-27 - Jesus will present to Himself a glorious church without spot
------------- or wrinkle, so that she should be holy and without blemish.
Phil 2:12 --- Work out your salvation with fear and trembling - God is working in you.
Phil 2:14-16- Become blameless and pure without fault, holding firmly to the word of life.
Col 1:22-23 - Jesus will present you holy, blameless, and above reproach,
------------- if you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast and unmovable.
Col 3:5-6 --- The wrath of God is coming upon those who don’t crucify their earthly nature.
Heb 3:12-15 - Beware of any evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God,
------------- lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
------------- For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning
------------- of our confidence steadfast to the end.
Heb 4:11 --- -Be diligent lest anyone fall according to examples of disobedience.
Heb 6:4-8 --- Those who have been enlightened, have experienced the Holy Spirit, have
------------- appreciated the Bible, if they fall away can never return to repentance
------------- (they have re-crucified the Son of God and subjected Him to public disgrace).
Heb 12:14 --- Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Pet 1:15-16 Be holy in all your conduct, because “Be holy, for I am holy”.
Rev 2—3 ----- JC: Christians must be overcomers in order to sit on Jesus’ throne, etc.
------------- JC: Christians must repent of their sins, wrong-doings, etc.
------------- JC: Christians who are lukewarm Jesus will vomit out of His mouth.
Rev 21:7-8 -- Overcomers will inherit all things, sinners will be in the lake of fire.
Rev 21:27 --- The impure, shameful, deceitful, etc. will never enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:14-15- The obedient have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the City.

These Scripture passages support the doctrine of conditional security.
If you believe in eternal security (OSAS) … do you have any good explanations for:
Why are these verses in the NT? Why were these warnings written to the churches?

Some of Jesus’ warnings in the gospels
Matt 5:48 --- You shall be perfect just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Matt 7:13-14- The narrow way leading to eternal life is difficult, and few find it.
Matt 7:21 --- Those who do the will of Father God shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 10:38 -- Whoever does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Matt 10:39 -- He who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Matt 16:24-26 Deny yourself (your soulish life) and follow Jesus to find eternal life.
Matt 25:1-13- The parable of the wise and foolish virgins.
Matt 25:14-30 The parable of the talents.
Mark 11:25-26 If you do not forgive, Father God will not forgive your trespasses.
Luke 13:24 -- Many will try to enter through the narrow door and will not be able to.
Luke 14:33 -- You must forsake all that you have to be Jesus’ disciple.
John 12:25 -- He who loves his life in this world will lose eternal life.

 

[Elin]

Warnings are a means to preserve the elect in the fold.

Those outside the fold do not heed the warnings, whereas those in the fold are kept by heeding them.

 

[cfultz3]

Warnings are a means to preserve the elect in the fold.

Those outside the fold do not heed the warnings, whereas those in the fold are kept by heeding them.

Ellin,

With all due respect, Sister, what if the elect does not heed to them?

 

[starfield]

Ellin,

With all due respect, Sister, what if the elect does not heed to them?

I would say they are not God's elect because Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me".

 

[Skinski7]

Peter clearly alluded that falling away was a possibility.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Those who preach "unconditional eternal security" and will say things like, "Those outside the fold do not heed the warnings, whereas those in the fold are kept by heeding them" are usually rooted on the precepts of the Irresistible Grace or the I in the TULIP of Reformed Theology.

In other words they hold that the Elect WILL persevere because they are the Elect and cannot resist the irresistible grace of God.

Strip the fancy theological words and all men are akin to programmed sin robots where God has picked a few of the robots and reprogrammed them. Choice is completely removed from the equation for in their mind "choice" would infringe on the "sovereignty of God."

The truth is that a Christian can indeed fall and the elect are those who will endure to the end. God has elected that those who will endure to the end will be saved but He does not FORCE the endurance. The warnings in the Bible are to be WILLFULLY heeded lest one indeed falls from being steadfast in the faith.

Therefore we are to depart from iniquity. We are to purge ourselves by yielding to God that we may be a vessel unto honour. We are to call upon the Lord out of a pure heart.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

 

[Stephen63]

I would say they are not God's elect because Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me".

If the saved are always going to be the saved, why warn them? If the unsaved are going to remain the unsaved, why warn them? Imagine how small the Bible would be if all those warnings were taken out? To me, it's quite an insult to say God would inspire all those writers to write those verses for nothing. Because they would change absolutely nothing, if we believe everything stays the same.

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

John Chapter 10 is a good warning about false - shepherds whom lead believers astray. The false shepards are indeed the " prophets" of the churches, whom aren't prophets at all. You'll be amazed at how much has gotten messed up in the churches, even men overstepping God's laws to enforce their own. Just do a brief search on Christian history.

Churches constantly say they know or have the truth of God - but hold onto customs developed by pagans, create idols in the image of God, and have forgotten the way Jesus Christ established the way to eternal life; and that isn't communion or the eucharist. The bible specifies a name for the ceremony of receiving Jesus's Christ flesh and blood, and it's stated so because God already knew people would be deceived by the churches whom overstep God's authority and enforce their own traditions and " holy " regulations.

It really is spiritual disaster - and this is why Revelations talks about the great adulteress and God declaring that his people come out of her. Obviously this isn't a physical woman; but rather the only institution that can take in God's people and manipulate them to fall away from his truths.

This is why Jesus had to come to establish God's truths, and why Jesus stated that another Christ will come in his name to re - establish God's honest truth for our generation, as well as the apostles constantly warning about false churches and the deception many will face.

The devil is waging war with God's offspring; us - and he's doing it from the churches by setting up wicked spirits in the churches. He know he is going to die and he is one pissed off spirit. The more he drags to hell with him, the more he spites God.


And yes, even the elect can fallaway. Elect doesn't mean it's a permanent position; if your elected as president, your only there until your term is over. The original tribes of Judah - two of them fell away in the Old Testament, even though they were the originally chosen, with another tribe that wasn't originally chosen becoming one of the tribes.

This is a spiritual reflection for God's people at this time. Some will be chosen, but not all will make it.

Pray to God you make it.

 

[susanblange]

We are to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.

 

[starfield]

If the saved are always going to be the saved, why warn them? If the unsaved are going to remain the unsaved, why warn them? Imagine how small the Bible would be if all those warnings were taken out? To me, it's quite an insult to say God would inspire all those writers to write those verses for nothing. Because they would change absolutely nothing, if we believe everything stays the same.

I don't hold to eternal security doctrine either.

While the scriptures give comfort and assurance to true followers of God, there are also warnings about the possibility of falling away hence refuting eternal security. Jesus' sheep (elects) are those that follow Him in obedience to His voice, no one can pluck them out of His hands, and they can have assurance of salvation. However if they no longer want to hearken to His voice, they will no longer be His elect.

John 10: 2-5, 27-29
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Contrary to eternal security doctrine, which states that one can be Jesus' sheep whilst walking in opposition to Him since they were once saved, scriptures show that the true sheep are those who obey God and they are the ones that have eternal life (Heb 5:9).
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

You're right. Those admonitions would be irrelevant if believers cannot fall away from the faith.

 

[starfield]

Peter clearly alluded that falling away was a possibility.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Those who preach "unconditional eternal security" and will say things like, "Those outside the fold do not heed the warnings, whereas those in the fold are kept by heeding them" are usually rooted on the precepts of the Irresistible Grace or the I in the TULIP of Reformed Theology.

In other words they hold that the Elect WILL persevere because they are the Elect and cannot resist the irresistible grace of God.

Strip the fancy theological words and all men are akin to programmed sin robots where God has picked a few of the robots and reprogrammed them. Choice is completely removed from the equation for in their mind "choice" would infringe on the "sovereignty of God."

The truth is that a Christian can indeed fall and the elect are those who will endure to the end. God has elected that those who will endure to the end will be saved but He does not FORCE the endurance. The warnings in the Bible are to be WILLFULLY heeded lest one indeed falls from being steadfast in the faith.

Therefore we are to depart from iniquity. We are to purge ourselves by yielding to God that we may be a vessel unto honour. We are to call upon the Lord out of a pure heart.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

I agree.

One becomes God's elect the moment they believe in Jesus Christ and are saved however this position will not permanent if they decide to leave God for the world. Jesus even warned His disciple to take heed that no man deceives them, so Christians are not immune to the snare of Satan. That's why Paul warned that we ought to make their calling and election sure because in doing so we will not fall.

I liken salvation to being passengers on an airplane with God being the pilot. God promised to protect us and take us to our destination but we have the choice of either continuing to trust in Him (staying inside the plane) or turning our backs on Him (jumping out of the plane). God's sovereignty and mankind's free will still remain intact.

 

[crossnote]

True the warnings are there as a means to convict the elect in their waywardness.
But the impetus for doing good to others and loving God does not come from the law/warnings but rather from the Gospel.
This is a problem I see with some who want to major on the law/warnings at the expense of lack of emphasis on the Good News.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
(Rom 2:4)

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
(Tit 2:11-12)

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
(Col 1:5-6)

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
(2Pe 1:3-4)

 

[Chr]

God warns us about true and false converts example read matthew 7. 1 john 2. James 2.

 

[Chr]

Go to gty.org and read the article on eternal security

 

[Elin]

Ellin,

With all due respect, Sister, what if the elect does not heed to them?

Hi, cvultz3,

The Holy Sprit works in their heart causing them to want to heed them, which they willingly do.

The elect heed, and do not ignore.

 

[Enow]

Warnings are a means to preserve the elect in the fold.

Those outside the fold do not heed the warnings, whereas those in the fold are kept by heeding them.

God will be judging His House first. 1 Peter 4:17-19

What we build on that foundation will be judged: 1 Corinthians 3:10-23

There are two kinds of vessels in His House: the vessels unto honour that are the chosen aka the elect: which are of the first fold: And there are vessels unto dishonour in His House for not departing from any iniquity. 2 Timothy 2:19-21

God the Father will chasten every child He receives so there is a need to go before that throne of grace for help to be ready and found abiding in Him: Hebrews 12:1-29

Our confidence should be in Jesus Christ to finish ( Philippians 1:6,9-11 & 1 John 5:1,4-5 & 1 John 3:3 & Jude 1:24-25 )

Because of the prophesied falling away from the faith ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2) and yet Jesus will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:38-40) then God has to judge His House first to restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake, and there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth over the loss of that first inheritance, but God will wipe the tears from the eyes of those saints left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event that are coming out of the great tribulation.

So yes.... there will be a fold that follow His voice, and a fold that followed the stranger's voice, but do note that this wayward fold is still His sheep because Jesus testified He MUST bring them as they will be made to hear His voice and be of the one fold and one shepherd because it is the will of God for Him to lose nothing of all the Father has given Him.

John 10:[SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [SUP]15 [/SUP]As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Matthew 18:[SUP]10 [/SUP]Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. [SUP]12 [/SUP]How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?[SUP]13 [/SUP]And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

2 Timothy 2:[SUP]24 [/SUP]And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, [SUP]25 [/SUP]In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; [SUP]26 [/SUP]And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Elin]

God will be judging His House first. 1 Peter 4:17-19

What we build on that foundation will be judged: 1 Corinthians 3:10-23

God judges his family with persecution (1Pe 4:15) to purify it.

So if God visits persecution on his family, then what will he visit on those outside his family (1Pe 4:17).

But God's House does not have two folds, or two families.
However, in his one family there are those who produce more fruit, and those who produce "less" fruit,
which will be made manifest when all fruit is tried by fire (1Co 3:10-23).

 

[Enow]

God judges his family with persecution (1Pe 4:15) to purify it.

So if God visits persecution on his family, then what will he visit on those outside his family (1Pe 4:17).

Jesus will cut asunder those that are His and appoint them their portion with the unbelievers when He sends fire on the earth, thus indicative of the unrepentant saints being cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation. The church at Thyatira was warned of the consequences for not repenting of their fornication in Revelation 2nd chapter.

But God's House does not have two folds, or two families.

No, but there are three harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of God: the firstfruits, and they that are Christ's at His coming, and then the third harvest after the last battle with Satan at the end of the milleniel reign of Christ when Satan is released from the pit for a small season to be defeated for the last time.

So there is another fold of sheep: one that went astrayed and followed a stranger's voice, BUT they will be made to be hear His voice and be of the one fold and one shepherd.

John 10:[SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [SUP]15 [/SUP]As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

However, in his one family there are those who produce more fruit, and those who produce "less" fruit,
which will be made manifest when all fruit is tried by fire (1Co 3:10-23).

There are scripture testifying to a believer with no fruit at all, and so there is pause even in that in regards to your quote....

1 Corinthians 3:[SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [SUP]17 [/SUP]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

What happens when a body is destroyed for defiling that temple of God? Death comes. And it did for the unrepentant saints of the church at Thyatira that did not depart from fornication & other sins: they were judged with death as all believers were warned that whatever a believer sows.. so shall he reap... unless they look to Jesus Christ right now to help them depart from all iniquity, that includes religious works that deny Him as well as the works of the flesh.

Revelation 2:[SUP]18 [/SUP]And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; [SUP]19 [/SUP]I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

What makes a vessel unto dishonour in His House as distinguished from the vessels unto honour in His House? What distinguished Esau from Jacob? His weeping for losing his birthright for a meal? Can it be that the foolish virgins in their weeping and gnashing of teeth are telltaling the consequences for not looking to the Good Shepherd in being ready to go?

So there is a fold that follow His voice, and the sheep as He calls them His sheep that were not of the fold that followed Him, but yet He must bring them because they are His, as they will be made to hear His voice and be of the one fold & one shepherd.

So fold here is in respect to the three harvests as they will all result in the making of the whole in the kingdom of God.

 

[nathan3]

The Seven churches in Revelation. Those warnings are the final warnings. There was only two, that Christ was totally pleased with. If your not in a Church that teaches what those two did. Then your going to be in trouble. Because Christ will fight against all the rest when He returns.