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M
But you are the one who has been saying we can learn about how the spiritual realm works from those previously in the occult etc. The KEY word is "PREVIOUSLY" in the occult. Those that astral project are STILL IN IT and not to be trusted. You have no problem believing that watcher spirits live in owls and all this sort of thing. This is no different. Totally different! Christians have had these experiences too you know, and these are what I'm referring to. If out of body experiences can be had by those in the occult etc, then there must also be real and Godly out of body experiences. Yes, but the occult does it at their own choosing and of their own will, whereas for Christians, it is GOD'S choice and will, and ours in line with His. Satan copies God remember.
Not in some of the experiences of accounts I have heard. The dead people are able to look down upon the earth and see their relatives, family etc on the earth. How do DEAD people do anything? How can dead bodies do anything, how can they see, how can they hear, having no eyes, nor ears with which to do so? How does a dead body report to a live one…especially when scripture forbids it?!?! AHHHhhh…therein lies the answer. It is FORBIDDEN by God…but the occult imitates the deceased and deceives people into thinking that they have communicated with the dead, when in fact, they have encountered a demon.These are Christians I'm talking about, or people who weren't Christian but God gave them opportunity to be saved after they die, then are sent back. It may very well be a Christian, but it is an unknowledgeable Christian, one who does not know through God's word that it is forbidden. It isn't the Christian that DOES it, it is those in the occult and from the demonic realm that DO it. They come to the unknowledgeable Christian whom they hope accepts the lie they present. Once accepted, they continue to present, deceiving and eventually leading away from God. And occasionally, some get saved instead of trapped.
It is a spiritually physical realm, which I believe is like an outer layer of our earth's atmosphere, yet in the spiritual dimension. A spiritually physical realm? A bit of an oxymoron, I think. While they do intertwine, they are separate realms and kingdoms.
In the bible people always look UP to see heaven and God. Which means either God lives above the equatorial regions or those regions above Jerusalem, or exists all around the earth.
God is everywhere, all the time. He comes from on HIGH. But that does not always mean UP. "Up" is also a position of excellence and authority.
Maggie
Not in some of the experiences of accounts I have heard. The dead people are able to look down upon the earth and see their relatives, family etc on the earth. How do DEAD people do anything? How can dead bodies do anything, how can they see, how can they hear, having no eyes, nor ears with which to do so? How does a dead body report to a live one…especially when scripture forbids it?!?! AHHHhhh…therein lies the answer. It is FORBIDDEN by God…but the occult imitates the deceased and deceives people into thinking that they have communicated with the dead, when in fact, they have encountered a demon.These are Christians I'm talking about, or people who weren't Christian but God gave them opportunity to be saved after they die, then are sent back. It may very well be a Christian, but it is an unknowledgeable Christian, one who does not know through God's word that it is forbidden. It isn't the Christian that DOES it, it is those in the occult and from the demonic realm that DO it. They come to the unknowledgeable Christian whom they hope accepts the lie they present. Once accepted, they continue to present, deceiving and eventually leading away from God. And occasionally, some get saved instead of trapped.
It is a spiritually physical realm, which I believe is like an outer layer of our earth's atmosphere, yet in the spiritual dimension. A spiritually physical realm? A bit of an oxymoron, I think. While they do intertwine, they are separate realms and kingdoms.
God is everywhere, all the time. He comes from on HIGH. But that does not always mean UP. "Up" is also a position of excellence and authority.
Maggie
Dear Maggie I'm only referring to Christians who have had these experiences. I thought that should have been obvious since I'm talking about people who have gone to heaven, even momentarily.
Dead people's souls I am talking about, which should have been pretty obviously I would have thought. They die, their soul goes to heaven, they can look down upon the earth, they are sent back into their mortal bodies. I know you probably don't believe in the existance of the soul after death, based on past discussions, leaning more towards seventh day adventist teachings on "soul sleep" or something like that. But I thought someone with your learning and experience would know the soul does indeed exist apart from the body and to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And if the Lord sends you back again...well His decision.
Some people equate imaginary with spiritual. Well dreams and visions are imaginary. But the real heaven is not. I mean the spiritual realm which has spiritually-physical reality. There are laws and "physics" in the spiritual realm as well, you know. The study of supernatural motion and matter.
Every time a person had a vision of heaven in the bible they looked up, or were carried up. Up means up. This must mean it exists all around the earth and above the earth, as a sort of outer layer. Which is invisible, because it is spiritual. The alternative is that it exists in a location directly above Jerusalem or present day Israel, in that area anyway.
Dead people's souls I am talking about, which should have been pretty obviously I would have thought. They die, their soul goes to heaven, they can look down upon the earth, they are sent back into their mortal bodies. I know you probably don't believe in the existance of the soul after death, based on past discussions, leaning more towards seventh day adventist teachings on "soul sleep" or something like that. But I thought someone with your learning and experience would know the soul does indeed exist apart from the body and to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And if the Lord sends you back again...well His decision.
Some people equate imaginary with spiritual. Well dreams and visions are imaginary. But the real heaven is not. I mean the spiritual realm which has spiritually-physical reality. There are laws and "physics" in the spiritual realm as well, you know. The study of supernatural motion and matter.
Every time a person had a vision of heaven in the bible they looked up, or were carried up. Up means up. This must mean it exists all around the earth and above the earth, as a sort of outer layer. Which is invisible, because it is spiritual. The alternative is that it exists in a location directly above Jerusalem or present day Israel, in that area anyway.
M
Mahogany: I'm sorry, it was not obvious…I missed that.
Dead people's souls I am talking about, which should have been pretty obviously I would have thought. They die, their soul goes to heaven,No, their SPIRITS go to wherever Jesus sends them to wait until the day of judgment (not purgatory…we won't go there) they can look down upon the earth, they are sent back into their mortal bodies. I know you probably don't believe in the existance of the soul after death, based on past discussions, leaning more towards seventh day adventist teachings on "soul sleep" or something like that. No, I do not believe in soul sleep. But I thought someone with your learning and experience would know the soul does indeed exist apart from the body and to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And if the Lord sends you back again...well His decision. No, the soul (mind, will & emotion) does not and cannot exist apart from the physical body. Without the physical body there is no brain, no mind, no will, and no emotion…no brain for these elements of the soul to operate from or through. It has nothing to do with the verse that you took out of context: There are 4 verses and all are referring to operating out of the flesh as opposed to operating out of the spirit. When a person operates out of the soul; the mind, will and emotion, it is of the flesh. 2 Corinthians 5:8
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body (not operating out of the flesh)and to be at home with the Lord. (The Lord is Spirit. We operate in the Spirit when we are in His presence, at the same time that we are physically on the earth.
Some people equate imaginary with spiritual. They are totally NOT the same thing. Imaginary is Imagined, while the spiritual realm is real…unseen, but real.Well dreams and visions are imaginary. No, they are messages from God. The only types of dreams that are 'imaginary' are what are called 'Chemical dreams'. They come about because of chemical changes going on in the body from; pregnancy; medication, street drug use, alcohol and even certain foods. But the real heaven is not. I mean the spiritual realm which has spiritually-physical reality. There are laws and "physics" in the spiritual realm as well, you know. The study of supernatural motion and matter. You might be interested in David Van Koevering's teachings on Quantum Physics, Music and the Prophetic. There are FOUR SETS of teaching by David and a few other ministers.
Every time a person had a vision of heaven in the bible they looked up, or were carried up. I did a search at Biblegateway.com and they do not say "I looked up", but rather "I looked, and behold" or "I looked at…": http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=I+looked&searchtype=phrase&version1=49&spanbegin=1&spanend=73 Up means up. This must mean it exists all around the earth and above the earth, as a sort of outer layer. Which is invisible, because it is spiritual. The alternative is that it exists in a location directly above Jerusalem or present day Israel, in that area anyway. The Kingdom of God is a place of spiritual DIMENSION. I don't know how to explain it other than to have you consider the Twilight Zone TV shows…in which another dimension CO-EXISTED with the natural, earthly realm/dimension that we see, hear, touch, feel, and smell.
Maggie
Dead people's souls I am talking about, which should have been pretty obviously I would have thought. They die, their soul goes to heaven,No, their SPIRITS go to wherever Jesus sends them to wait until the day of judgment (not purgatory…we won't go there) they can look down upon the earth, they are sent back into their mortal bodies. I know you probably don't believe in the existance of the soul after death, based on past discussions, leaning more towards seventh day adventist teachings on "soul sleep" or something like that. No, I do not believe in soul sleep. But I thought someone with your learning and experience would know the soul does indeed exist apart from the body and to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And if the Lord sends you back again...well His decision. No, the soul (mind, will & emotion) does not and cannot exist apart from the physical body. Without the physical body there is no brain, no mind, no will, and no emotion…no brain for these elements of the soul to operate from or through. It has nothing to do with the verse that you took out of context: There are 4 verses and all are referring to operating out of the flesh as opposed to operating out of the spirit. When a person operates out of the soul; the mind, will and emotion, it is of the flesh. 2 Corinthians 5:8
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body (not operating out of the flesh)and to be at home with the Lord. (The Lord is Spirit. We operate in the Spirit when we are in His presence, at the same time that we are physically on the earth.
Some people equate imaginary with spiritual. They are totally NOT the same thing. Imaginary is Imagined, while the spiritual realm is real…unseen, but real.Well dreams and visions are imaginary. No, they are messages from God. The only types of dreams that are 'imaginary' are what are called 'Chemical dreams'. They come about because of chemical changes going on in the body from; pregnancy; medication, street drug use, alcohol and even certain foods. But the real heaven is not. I mean the spiritual realm which has spiritually-physical reality. There are laws and "physics" in the spiritual realm as well, you know. The study of supernatural motion and matter. You might be interested in David Van Koevering's teachings on Quantum Physics, Music and the Prophetic. There are FOUR SETS of teaching by David and a few other ministers.
Every time a person had a vision of heaven in the bible they looked up, or were carried up. I did a search at Biblegateway.com and they do not say "I looked up", but rather "I looked, and behold" or "I looked at…": http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=I+looked&searchtype=phrase&version1=49&spanbegin=1&spanend=73 Up means up. This must mean it exists all around the earth and above the earth, as a sort of outer layer. Which is invisible, because it is spiritual. The alternative is that it exists in a location directly above Jerusalem or present day Israel, in that area anyway. The Kingdom of God is a place of spiritual DIMENSION. I don't know how to explain it other than to have you consider the Twilight Zone TV shows…in which another dimension CO-EXISTED with the natural, earthly realm/dimension that we see, hear, touch, feel, and smell.
Maggie
I think to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Personal testimonies, scripture etc shows that the soul does exist apart from the body. There is a part of the soul which is connected to the spirit, thereby the person retains all their consciousness, will, mind, and emotion in their soul state. In other words, they are not animalistic and unfeeling or impersonal spirit beings. I believe the soul/spirit goes to heaven, and the body dies. The resurrection is a resurrection of the body, not a resurrection of the soul.
This is where your views differ from most protestant denominations, not to mention Catholic, orthodox etc. It is the redemption of the body which comes later (Rom 8:23), not redemption of the soul which is already in the presence of the Lord for the person who has died.
Some people equate imaginary with spiritual. They are totally NOT the same thing. Imaginary is Imagined, while the spiritual realm is real…unseen, but real.Well dreams and visions are imaginary. No, they are messages from God.
They are often messages from God about imaginary (not literal) things. Symbolism, imagery. They have meaning, but just because you have a dream about a three eyed googly monster , doesn't mean one actually exists.
Search for the term "come up here" (Revelations 11:12), God calls someone up. Refer to the stoning of Stephen, seeing the heavens opened. Refer to the ascension (not descension) of Jesus up into the clouds. Heaven is clearly UP.
The term "spiritual dimension" sounds like more new age teaching you have unwittingly become involved in or learnt. Rather than co-existing, I believe the bible teaches it is at a specific location or place, yet still in the spiritual realm.
M
I think to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. One would hope, but the occult has people's spirits leaving the bodies all the time. It's called astral projection. They are not with the Lord when they do this.
Personal testimonies,irrelevant scripture such as? Please give reference. etc shows that the soul does exist apart from the body. There is a part of the soul which is connected to the spirit, thereby the person retains all their consciousness, will, mind, and emotion in their soul state. In other words, they are not animalistic and unfeeling or impersonal spirit beings. I believe the soul/spirit goes to heaven, and the body dies. The resurrection is a resurrection of the body, not a resurrection of the soul. That is not Biblical. The soul cannot operate without a body. The soul is the 'cd player' of the body. Either a bad cd is player or a Godly CD is played. They body response to what the soul focuses on or 'plays'. The devil is constantly trying to get us to play his cds. Everything the soul does is tied into the mind , will and emotion of the LIVING body. When the body dies, there is nothing through which the soul can operate or function…it is dead with the body.
This is where your views differ from most protestant denominations, not to mention Catholic, orthodox etc. It is the redemption of the body which comes later (Rom 8:23), not redemption of the soul which is already in the presence of the Lord for the person who has died. 23(AT)And not only this, but also we ourselves, having (AU)the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves (AV)groan within ourselves, (AW)waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, (AX)the redemption of our body. There is no scripture to support your belief that the soul goes to be with the Lord. It's just not there. We, created in His Image which is spirit, are SPIRIT.
They are often messages from God about imaginary (not literal) things. Symbolism, imagery. They have meaning, but just because you have a dream about a three eyed googly monster , doesn't mean one actually exists. The meanings of things in dreams are metaphorical, not imaginary. In visions, the meanings are literal. If you dream about a three eyed googly monster, you can know that God is showing you that there is a demonic influence in your life that is giving you distorted spiritual vision….context being key, of course.
The term "spiritual dimension" sounds like more new age teaching you have unwittingly become involved in or learnt. The 'spiritual dimension' existed LOOOONG before the 'new age'. It is not new age it is truth and synonymous with the word 'realm'. It IS 'other worldly' but yet exists right in our living rooms, bedrooms, kitchens, businesses,…where ever you go if you go 'in the spirit'. Rather than co-existing, I believe the bible teaches it is at a specific location or place, yet still in the spiritual realm. It is a spiritual location, not a physical one, unless you consider that the first heaven is the moon, stars, planets; the second is where the demonic reside…unseen and yet all around waiting to kidnap up and hold us captive in that realm; and the third heaven is where the Throne of God is and The Father with Jesus at His right hand.
Personal testimonies,irrelevant scripture such as? Please give reference. etc shows that the soul does exist apart from the body. There is a part of the soul which is connected to the spirit, thereby the person retains all their consciousness, will, mind, and emotion in their soul state. In other words, they are not animalistic and unfeeling or impersonal spirit beings. I believe the soul/spirit goes to heaven, and the body dies. The resurrection is a resurrection of the body, not a resurrection of the soul. That is not Biblical. The soul cannot operate without a body. The soul is the 'cd player' of the body. Either a bad cd is player or a Godly CD is played. They body response to what the soul focuses on or 'plays'. The devil is constantly trying to get us to play his cds. Everything the soul does is tied into the mind , will and emotion of the LIVING body. When the body dies, there is nothing through which the soul can operate or function…it is dead with the body.
This is where your views differ from most protestant denominations, not to mention Catholic, orthodox etc. It is the redemption of the body which comes later (Rom 8:23), not redemption of the soul which is already in the presence of the Lord for the person who has died. 23(AT)And not only this, but also we ourselves, having (AU)the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves (AV)groan within ourselves, (AW)waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, (AX)the redemption of our body. There is no scripture to support your belief that the soul goes to be with the Lord. It's just not there. We, created in His Image which is spirit, are SPIRIT.
They are often messages from God about imaginary (not literal) things. Symbolism, imagery. They have meaning, but just because you have a dream about a three eyed googly monster , doesn't mean one actually exists. The meanings of things in dreams are metaphorical, not imaginary. In visions, the meanings are literal. If you dream about a three eyed googly monster, you can know that God is showing you that there is a demonic influence in your life that is giving you distorted spiritual vision….context being key, of course.
The term "spiritual dimension" sounds like more new age teaching you have unwittingly become involved in or learnt. The 'spiritual dimension' existed LOOOONG before the 'new age'. It is not new age it is truth and synonymous with the word 'realm'. It IS 'other worldly' but yet exists right in our living rooms, bedrooms, kitchens, businesses,…where ever you go if you go 'in the spirit'. Rather than co-existing, I believe the bible teaches it is at a specific location or place, yet still in the spiritual realm. It is a spiritual location, not a physical one, unless you consider that the first heaven is the moon, stars, planets; the second is where the demonic reside…unseen and yet all around waiting to kidnap up and hold us captive in that realm; and the third heaven is where the Throne of God is and The Father with Jesus at His right hand.
Everything the soul does is tied into the mind , will and emotion of the LIVING body. (AND the LIVING spirit which are joined (Heb 4:12))
Then Jesus must have been wrong when He said:
Mat 10:28Andfearnotthem which killthebody,butarenotabletokillthesoul:
There is the living spirit to which it is joined (Heb 4:12). And that is why when a person dies, their spirit/soul goes to heaven to be with the Lord, their personality, desires, memories, feelings all pertaining to the soul. The eternal and immortal part of the soul does not die. The brain and electrical signals etc are simply the way the soul communicates to the body. Absense of brain function does not mean the soul is dead.
Heaven does not exist in your bedroom. It is up.
Then Jesus must have been wrong when He said:
Mat 10:28Andfearnotthem which killthebody,butarenotabletokillthesoul:
There is the living spirit to which it is joined (Heb 4:12). And that is why when a person dies, their spirit/soul goes to heaven to be with the Lord, their personality, desires, memories, feelings all pertaining to the soul. The eternal and immortal part of the soul does not die. The brain and electrical signals etc are simply the way the soul communicates to the body. Absense of brain function does not mean the soul is dead.
Heaven does not exist in your bedroom. It is up.
re: astral projection, Even Christians can leave their body if God wants it to:
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such a one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
He didn't know whether he was in the body or out, but as he said, he did not say it is impossible to be out of the body, and still retain all mental function which is required to observe the vision. Which means the soul must be able to leave and exist independent of the body.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such a one caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
He didn't know whether he was in the body or out, but as he said, he did not say it is impossible to be out of the body, and still retain all mental function which is required to observe the vision. Which means the soul must be able to leave and exist independent of the body.
M
Mat 10:28Andfearnotthem which killthebody,butarenotabletokillthesoul:
Mat 10:28 A And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
Those who kill the body refer to persecutors in hell. Only God can kill the soul in hell:
But rather fear Him whi is able todestroy both soul and body IN HELL
So what will the soul operate out of when the Spirit goes to be with Jesus? MEMORIES will only be partial in heaven. We will know each other BY THE SPIRIT, as sisters and brothers in Christ. But we will not remember those that didn't make it into heaven.
Maggie
Mat 10:28 A And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
Those who kill the body refer to persecutors in hell. Only God can kill the soul in hell:
But rather fear Him whi is able todestroy both soul and body IN HELL
So what will the soul operate out of when the Spirit goes to be with Jesus? MEMORIES will only be partial in heaven. We will know each other BY THE SPIRIT, as sisters and brothers in Christ. But we will not remember those that didn't make it into heaven.
Maggie
It refers to persecution on the earth. Do not be afraid of them (vs 26). Jesus is saying don't be afraid of what people can do to your body in this life, they cannot touch your soul /spirit. Check up the teachings of Wesley and other bible commentaries from a broad range of denominations, the belief in the immortal soul is a stock standard Christian doctrine. It has really only been cult-like groups such as the JW's, Mormons, SDA's etc that have denied it, preferring soul sleep or soul death doctrines instead.
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