What are Calvinism and Arminianism?

[ChirstNotCalvin]

For the record - Calvin was the instigator of 27 executions. The first being his ex friend Sevetus. Servetus disagreed with Calvin and even went so far as to mark up Calvin's book with corrections. The marked up copy was tied around his neck so as it burnt it gave Servetus even more suffering by chocking fumes before he died.

Nowadays Calvanist are better known as closet calvanists. They deny following there leader but any exegesis is always bent towards there leaders dogma. If you ever meet a calvanist and find there interpretation offensive, you will be labelled an arminian by default. Even if you have not the foggiest notion of what that means.

The BIG problem is that this cult see only a two horse race. You are either calvanist or arminian. Read the Bible for yourself and you will see the biblical view is far wider.



Calvinism is definitely NOT biblical as many people on this web site have demonstrated.

It does not seem to be common knowledge who or what Arminius taught or believed. He did NOT propose free will in the sense that Calvinist allege. In fact he was a Calvinist of his time. Being a Professor he was asked to look into a problem in that two Dutchmen were not toeing the party line. This came to be known as the remonstrance. On researching the remonstrators views, he found there was no biblical evidence whatsoever that the Bible teaches humans are predestined to hell. He did not entirely disagree with the remonstrators. He did not go on the campaign trail as he was a mainstream reformer and he knew he would get burnt at the stake for doing so.

Thats a very short history. my point is that Calvanist peddle there stuff based on misinformation and straw man arguments. If only they would read the stuff Calvin wrote and published. I have posted some of it on this web sit already. Dr Vance maybe a KJV only man but his book contains the teaching of just about every mainstream Calvanist and put it alongside the Bible to expose its heresy.

Most Calvinists do not know that Calvin was a 'supralapsarian'. That is he taught that God predestined Adam and Eve's fall to the very second. ( Institutes book 3 Ch27). Calvin taught 'double predestination,'. Calvanist alway lose an argument on this because it means God is indeed the author of sin. Hence they invent 'single predestination'. I.E God predestines the elect but passes over the rest. As if that makes a difference. Its not just offensive stuff it is actually blasphemy. If it were correct it would be in the Bible.

Many people on this web site have already demonstrated the biblical position.

The biggest problem in the UK regarding the church is that rotwieler churchians peddle this Calvinistic clap trap and lead many astray. That is why third world countries are sending missionaries back to the UK.

A good web site they discusses all the above posts is The Pristine Faith Restoration Society - Home Page

PFRS stands for Pristine Faith Restoration Society - Hence it is not calvanistic but biblical.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

so.....God looked down through the corridors of time, and saw the pretty decent men who managed to summon saving faith from within darkened sinful hearts (not too sinful though, since they managed to ganer their own faith)...those decent men made a good choice by choosing Jesus and so God then predestined those ones to salvation? because of what THEY did?

there's a little room for boasting there, ya?



you better be careful how you speak about your Potter young man.
ALL are already condemned. if God chooses to save some, who are you to argue?

if you were called out and drawn to the Son perhaps you should be grateful and humble about that?
or did you decide to get saved one day and make your way to the throne of Grace and announce your decision.?

how did you manage that when you were a walking corpse?



what an absolute load of myths and propaganda.
doctrines and formulas attributed to calvinwere never even dreamt of by him: they came MUCH later, in response to the pelagians who we know today as arminians



and? your point?
everybody killing everybody else...anything different today (America and Israel's crusades against Islam comes to mind).

baptists? began as an arminian sect? PROOF PLEASE

assurance is TOTALLY biblical: for monergists who know salvation is God's doing.

there's no assurance for Arminians who are bootstrapping their own way to the pearly gates (good luck with that).

The way see it, I don't have to defend myself. Your own words & actions condemn you zone.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Think about it, if Calvinists truly believed in what they profess, that there is not one thing that any man can do to either help or hurt the cause of Christ on planet earth, then why did they feel it necessary to kill those who did not agree with them?

I ask the same question of those who profess to be Calvinists on the boards, if you truly believe in the Sovereignty of God as defined by Calvin, then why do you come on these boards only to belittle and ridicule those who do not agree with your beliefs? Why call them heretics and apostate condemning them to hell? If you truly hold to this belief then only other explaination for your actions is RELIGIOUS PRIDE!

However, did you ever stop to think for a moment that God is indeed so sovereign that His will is not threatened by the free will of men?

 

[Red33]

The way see it, I don't have to defend myself. Your own words & actions condemn you zone.

Zone makes some good points that strike you the wrong way, that you do not have an answer for and you decide to hit the 'ignore button'. Is that humility on your part or is that a bit of stubbornness in the heart that doesn't understand the cross and grace of God from divine viewpoint. Many understand the scriptures from human viewpoint but are never renewed and transformed in their mind and heart to divine viewpoint. This is why there is a different understanding of so many doctrines which include the atonement, with some it is limited and with others it is unlimited.

This leads into various human understandings of predestination, the grace of God exercised toward sinful man, the nature of the finished work of Christ, the eternal security of God's eternal redemption and great salvation for the believer, the process of sanctification and holiness and even the right standing that God gives the believer freely through the grace of His justification and not ours. Human viewpoint will always be in opposition to divine viewpoint that has been laid out for us in the inspiration of the written word.

People can make their claims, all they want, from human viewpoint and be persuaded from that point of view and call it the Spirit, but it has no power of the indwelling Christ nor will it reveal the purpose and mystery of the will of God that is revealed to the heart of man through the light of the word and Spirit from divine viewpoint. The devil can not deceive the believer who operates in the humility of faith that operates from divine viewpoint but has a field day with those that walk by the sight and persuasions of human viewpoint through their own understanding because they lack the humility of faith.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Zone makes some good points that strike you the wrong way, that you do not have an answer for and you decide to hit the 'ignore button'. Is that humility on your part or is that a bit of stubbornness in the heart that doesn't understand the cross and grace of God from divine viewpoint. Many understand the scriptures from human viewpoint but are never renewed and transformed in their mind and heart to divine viewpoint. This is why there is a different understanding of so many doctrines which include the atonement, with some it is limited and with others it is unlimited.

This leads into various human understandings of predestination, the grace of God exercised toward sinful man, the nature of the finished work of Christ, the eternal security of God's eternal redemption and great salvation for the believer, the process of sanctification and holiness and even the right standing that God gives the believer freely through the grace of His justification and not ours. Human viewpoint will always be in opposition to divine viewpoint that has been laid out for us in the inspiration of the written word.

People can make their claims, all they want, from human viewpoint and be persuaded from that point of view and call it the Spirit, but it has no power of the indwelling Christ nor will it reveal the purpose and mystery of the will of God that is revealed to the heart of man through the light of the word and Spirit from divine viewpoint. The devil can not deceive the believer who operates in the humility of faith that operates from divine viewpoint but has a field day with those that walk by the sight and persuasions of human viewpoint through their own understanding because they lack the humility of faith.

Hmmm... elequant words Red. The only problem is that, according to your own professions, a man can be free from sin while still a slave to sin. So one must ask themselves a question while reading any of your posts: is this really the Holy Spirit talking or a word smith who knows how to craft his words in order to achieve a desired result? Given that you yourself have have professsed that you only believe that the Holy Spirit only speaks through scripture and not through people I guess we should simply take your words with a grain of salt.

A word of warning to the others on this forum: DON'T DRINK THE KOOL AID. We've already seen this past week the havoc that a crafty wordsmth can cause when he allows himself to be dominated by his flesh (Harold Camping).

 

[Red33]

Hmmm... elequant words Red. The only problem is that, according to your own professions, a man can be free from sin while still a slave to sin.

* You percieve through human viewpoint that gave you that understanding because I have never said that nor have I ever believed that concerning the grace of God, but you love to impute that to me and others.

So one must ask themselves a question while reading any of your posts: is this really the Holy Spirit talking or a word smith who knows how to craft his words in order to achieve a desired result?

*You can talk to yourself in the vanity of your own thoughts all day long, for that will do nothing for you or anyone else.

Given that you yourself have have professsed that you only believe that the Holy Spirit only speaks through scripture and not through people I guess we should simply take your words with a grain of salt.

* Again, you have been sucked in through human viewpoint. If God did not speak to man and through man, we would not even have the scriptures as we know them and their would no inspiration from God to man. Get out of human veiwpoint and get into divine veiwpoint, but it will take humility and grace for that to happen.

A word of warning to the others on this forum: DON'T DRINK THE KOOL AID. We've already seen this past week the havoc that a crafty wordsmth can cause when he allows himself to be dominated by his flesh (Harold Camping) .

* What has happen recently has been very unfotunate for many but God has a provision for them and God will deal with Harold Camping on His terms on not ours. FOTA, you should be careful with your thoughts of evil and with your tongue and what you say in terms of judgment, seeing that you have many problems in your own doctrine with the nature of God, His great salvation and the inexhautible supply of His grace.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

* What has happen recently has been very unfotunate for many but God has a provision for them and God will deal with Harold Camping on His terms on not ours. FOTA, you should be careful with your thoughts of evil and with your tongue and what you say in terms of judgment, seeing that you have many problems in your own doctrine with the nature of God, His great salvation and the inexhautible supply of His grace.

Let us compare beliefs for a second. You believe that God's grace only has the power to forgive past, present & future sins only afer they have been commited. However, not only do I believe that God's grace forgives past, present and future sins, but I also believe that sin, for the most part, is a choice and that when we turn to God for grace in the moment of temptation, God's grace has the power to overcome sins before we commit them.

Now you tell me who believes in GREATER GRACE?

 

[phil36]

Hi sharon,

Calvinism is what we call reformed theology, well known names of those who are reformed are, John Piper, John Mac Arthur, Mark Driscoll, Paul Washer, CJ mahaney, this usualy gives people an idea.

Covenant theology would be a better description, the means by which God deals with man, Noah (rainbow) Moses (sinai) (Davidic) etc, and now in the New Covenant. it is through Covenant that God deal's with HIS people.

The acronym T.U.L.I.P as Jimmydiggs says above is quite a good understanding, yet this was actually in defence against the remonstrants (Arminians).

The Major difference with reformed theology is in how one is born again. We would say that God changes your heart so that you can come to Faith.

Some people wil try and tell you that we are like Adam and Eve before the fall to try and prove the point of free will, this is false. For Adam and Eve were not born with a sin nature, it was because of Adam that we all have sin natures, that is why Jesus is the secoond Adam.

Therefore, we are born in sin this is the Total depravity. However, this does not mean that all are as bad or evil as they could be, it just means men are born bent toward evil example:

You never have to teach a child how to misbehave or be bad, they learn this all by themselves. you have to teach them to be good.

Regarding election, I am totally amazed and in awe that God has saved anyone for not one single human being deserves it, but through his grace he has chosen to save people, His lost sheep.

In Evangelicalism there are 2 main theologies:

Reformed and Dispensational.

in and above this there are a myriad of arminian camps. Those who believe that they are so good and in their darkness can chose God? that they have spiritual eyes to see. However, how can you live when you are dead, God has to renew your heart for you to see.

Anyhow, basically you can find reformed theology in Baptists, Pentecostals, charismatics, presbyterian etc. This is something that some who argue against reformed theology don't even know.


For a quick look at reformed theology click here What is Reformed Theology?

or here : Monergism.com :: Classic Articles and Resources of the Historic Christian Faith

The best way is to be informed, most arguments i have seen on here against reformed theology has been very ill informed, they don't even know what arminianisn is yet they say thats what they belied

A great reformed song we all know.. its a newish one.

In Christ Alone

Anyhow I hope you come to your own biblical conclusion, personally, I don't think you will get very many "informed" opinions on here, but you will get opinions.
​

 

[zone]

Hmmm... elequant words Red. The only problem is that, according to your own professions, a man can be free from sin while still a slave to sin. So one must ask themselves a question while reading any of your posts: is this really the Holy Spirit talking or a word smith who knows how to craft his words in order to achieve a desired result? Given that you yourself have have professsed that you only believe that the Holy Spirit only speaks through scripture and not through people I guess we should simply take your words with a grain of salt.

A word of warning to the others on this forum: DON'T DRINK THE KOOL AID. We've already seen this past week the havoc that a crafty wordsmth can cause when he allows himself to be dominated by his flesh (Harold Camping).

REDSTER:
if you're not being accused of antinomianism, you're not preaching the True Gospel!

and darn it: lay off those silly old scriptures would you?


Isaiah 65:5
who say, “Keep to yourself, do not come near me, for I am too holy for you.” These are a smoke in my nostrils, a fire that burns all the day.

 

[ChirstNotCalvin]

Phill36, I am chasing you around this web site as you are very active so apologies if this is a repeat.

You say

"There is a false charge amongst Arminians that reformed theology does not believe man has choices. We believe men do have choices but that choice is always tied to your nature. So you are dead in your sin spiritually dead. How can you see? Spiritually you cannot see."

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to support arminianism but I do not understand what you mean. You sound totally hypocritical. Men have choices but they are blind so they can only make the wrong choice ? Surely that is not a choice at all. Its like having rolling a dice that has the same number on all six sides.

I am not taking a pop at you but I guess I am in the majority of all humans who don't get this. I know Calvin's Institutes Book 2 Chapter 1 states "Babies are born OBNOXIOUS and ODIOUS in the site of God" and Calvin goes on to explain that if a baby dies not having been baptized it is doomed to eternal hell. Is that what you believe ?

Surely God created humans and it was good. Off the top of my head I can think of one verse in the NT where it say men are dead in transgressions however does that mean they are totally unable as well ? Several texts state that there is enough evidence of God glory for any human to comprehend hence they are without excuse. Also they "go' there own way not forced down that road as there is no option open to them.

I have not quoted verse as I do not want to get into a verse swapping contest. Please can you explain your statement and don't mention arminianism.

Maybe most of the world are reprobates doomed to destruction as most people on the web site do not understand your statement/ view. At the very least it seems to me a fair amount of the Bible has to be stripped out.

Honestly, do not get me wrong. I would love to understand your thinking.

With utmost sincerity.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

REDSTER:
if you're not being accused of antinomianism, you're not preaching the True Gospel!

and darn it: lay off those silly old scriptures would you?


Isaiah 65:5
who say, “Keep to yourself, do not come near me, for I am too holy for you.” These are a smoke in my nostrils, a fire that burns all the day.

Actually Zone, you & I both know that if both Calvin & Arminius were here Red33 would be immediately declared and dismissed as an Antinomian. Neither believed that a person could be free from sin while still a slave to sin and that sanctification was indeed the fruit (evidence) of one's salvation rather than optional as Red boasts. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Calvin would want to hold a tribunal for Red with a stake and a pile of split wood on hand for the festivities afterward.

You're buddy Paul Washer as well as John McArthur & John Piper have preached multiple sermons against Red's views. It's all over youtube. That's why I find it hilarious that Red would even interject in this convo.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Hi sharon,

Calvinism is what we call reformed theology, well known names of those who are reformed are, John Piper, John Mac Arthur, Mark Driscoll, Paul Washer, CJ mahaney, this usualy gives people an idea.

Covenant theology would be a better description, the means by which God deals with man, Noah (rainbow) Moses (sinai) (Davidic) etc, and now in the New Covenant. it is through Covenant that God deal's with HIS people.

The acronym T.U.L.I.P as Jimmydiggs says above is quite a good understanding, yet this was actually in defence against the remonstrants (Arminians).

The Major difference with reformed theology is in how one is born again. We would say that God changes your heart so that you can come to Faith.

Some people wil try and tell you that we are like Adam and Eve before the fall to try and prove the point of free will, this is false. For Adam and Eve were not born with a sin nature, it was because of Adam that we all have sin natures, that is why Jesus is the secoond Adam.

Therefore, we are born in sin this is the Total depravity. However, this does not mean that all are as bad or evil as they could be, it just means men are born bent toward evil example:

You never have to teach a child how to misbehave or be bad, they learn this all by themselves. you have to teach them to be good.

Regarding election, I am totally amazed and in awe that God has saved anyone for not one single human being deserves it, but through his grace he has chosen to save people, His lost sheep.

In Evangelicalism there are 2 main theologies:

Reformed and Dispensational.

in and above this there are a myriad of arminian camps. Those who believe that they are so good and in their darkness can chose God? that they have spiritual eyes to see. However, how can you live when you are dead, God has to renew your heart for you to see.

Anyhow, basically you can find reformed theology in Baptists, Pentecostals, charismatics, presbyterian etc. This is something that some who argue against reformed theology don't even know.


For a quick look at reformed theology click here What is Reformed Theology?

or here : Monergism.com :: Classic Articles and Resources of the Historic Christian Faith

The best way is to be informed, most arguments i have seen on here against reformed theology has been very ill informed, they don't even know what arminianisn is yet they say thats what they belied

A great reformed song we all know.. its a newish one.

In Christ Alone

Anyhow I hope you come to your own biblical conclusion, personally, I don't think you will get very many "informed" opinions on here, but you will get opinions.
​

Actually Arminians take no issue with the idea that God changes the heart so that a person may come to faith. That would be called "conviction" and it is a primary work of the Holy Spirit during conversion. What Arminians debate is the idea that God willingly extends this grace to some yet denies it to others.

As for the idea of Total Depravity and / or Original Sin, Arminians believe this as well however, Arminians (especially those of the Wesleyan persuasion) believe that once a person is saved they are no longer obligated to fulfill the desires of the flesh if they submit themselves to the leading oh the Holy Spirit as described in Romans 8 as well as 1 John 2 & 3.

 

[phil36]

Actually Arminians take no issue with the idea that God changes the heart so that a person may come to faith. That would be called "conviction" and it is a primary work of the Holy Spirit during conversion. What Arminians debate is the idea that God willingly extends this grace to some yet denies it to others.

As for the idea of Total Depravity and / or Original Sin, Arminians believe this as well however, Arminians (especially those of the Wesleyan persuasion) believe that once a person is saved they are no longer obligated to fulfill the desires of the flesh if they submit themselves to the leading oh the Holy Spirit as described in Romans 8 as well as 1 John 2 & 3.

AHi Fire on the alter,

Arminians believe in 'partial depravity' not toalt depravity. They also do not believe in a monergistic work in reference to the initial act of being boran again its synergistic with them.

So you see what you know isnt exactly correct, it is not just about predistination, election etc, its also about how one is saved again.

So although the arminian believes God changes a mans heart, it is not by God alone. whereas, reformed would say that God alone changes the heart so that man can believe! Titus 3:5

 

[zone]

Actually Zone, you & I both know that if both Calvin & Arminius were here Red33 would be immediately declared and dismissed as an Antinomian..

LOL!

if you knew how "straight arrow" he is in living you'd blush at the above remark.
he's so holy you need sunglasses.
he is completely opposed to believers indulging in any sin, himself first and foremost.

so, Red himself would NEVER be dismissed as an antinomian.

so let's make a distinction between what you THINK he teaches/proclaims as the Gospel, and the person himself.

Neither believed that a person could be free from sin while still a slave to sin.

see....here's your problem.
and the whole thing SHOULD end here.

but it won't.

arminians seem to deliberately misinterpret passages like Romans 8 (of course after ripping 7 out and placing it in Saul of Tarsus' life cuz NOBODY sins after righteousness is IMPUTED to them: they only make mistakes).

Romans 8
Life in the Spirit
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set youb free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,c he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

see....a careful reading tells us that this is NOT a discussion of Christians using Grace as an excuse for licentiousness: it is a distinction between REGENERATE VS UNREGENERATE MEN.

from this error, its just a short hop over to Wesley's house where everybody who is anybody is "in The Spirit" and very holy.

and that sanctification was indeed the fruit (evidence) of one's salvation rather than optional as Red boasts..

total nonsense: but go and cherry pick through his posts to cobble together him saying that sanctification is "optional", and bring it back here.

what you are having trouble with is that Red refuses to write off sinners, professing ones or lost ones.

also, above you attempt to plant an arminian flag in "back-sliding" - ridiculous...total rubbish.

some folks were raised in christian (or other relatively moral) homes and don't know about enslavement to sin on the level that someone like me did....so they don't know what sanctification for that person looks like, or long it takes, or how painful it is or how many victories and failures there are: so??

all that means, and i find it frightening, is if as a homeless heroin addict and alcoholic i showed up on church's doorsill i'd have a stopwatch going from minute one???? and somebody measuring my justification by how hard my sanctification is???

come on Fire - where's the love, bro?

no...Red can speak for himself, and everybody knows i disagree with him on a lot: but you have him ALL wrong on this one. you came in partway through a STRAWMAN drama that's an Oscar nominee for sure

anyways.....why try to argue against HYPER-CALVINISM when i don't think there's a hyper-cal antinomian in the house? it's just silly.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Calvin would want to hold a tribunal for Red with a stake and a pile of split wood on hand for the festivities afterward. .

LOL...okay.
but Red would go up in flames saying I FORGIVE YOU JOHN

You're buddy Paul Washer as well as John McArthur & John Piper have preached multiple sermons against Red's views. It's all over youtube. That's why I find it hilarious that Red would even interject in this convo.

all well respected teachers:

i'm not a big paul washer fan.
macarthur's a dispensationalist so i rarely listen to him.
piper's ok, but i have some issues there as well.

i prefer Kim Riddlebarger (Reformed Covenant), Sizer (Reformed Covenant), Rosebrough (Confessionsal Lutheran), Micahel brown (Christ Reformed), Rosenbladt (Lutheran), Phil Johnson (Baptist who agrees with Calvin) and lots of others.

i also agree with PPS on this one: the two are reconcilable and it is a huge waste of time.

anyhoo.....

so what about that Romans 8, huh?

Calvinists VS Arminians

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

AHi Fire on the alter,

Arminians believe in 'partial depravity' not toalt depravity. They also do not believe in a monergistic work in reference to the initial act of being boran again its synergistic with them.

So you see what you know isnt exactly correct, it is not just about predistination, election etc, its also about how one is saved again.

So although the arminian believes God changes a mans heart, it is not by God alone. whereas, reformed would say that God alone changes the heart so that man can believe! Titus 3:5

Yers Arminians do indeed believe in synergism however, we believe that the work of conversion is entirely that of the Holy Spirit. The only involvement that man has in his own conversion is that he willingly submits to the call and work of the Holy Spirit.

As for the debate on Total Depravity, let's let mt friends from the Society of Evangelical Arminians answer your inquiree:

ARMINIANISM
Arminianism may be represented by the acronym FACTS:
Freed by Grace (to Believe)
Atonement for All
Conditional Election
Total Depravity
Security in Christ
These points broadly and roughly correspond to the historic Articles of Remonstrance (though they are not specifically a representation of them), which were composed in July 1610 by early Arminians and constitute the first formal summary of Arminian theology. Article numbers have been indicated for each point for convenient comparison. The points are presented here by logical order rather than acronym order to facilitate explanation most helpfully.


Total Depravity (Article 3)

• Humanity was created in the image of God, good and upright, but fell from its original sinless state through willful disobedience, leaving humanity sinful, separated from God, and under the sentence of divine condemnation.
• Total depravity does not mean that human beings are as bad as they could be, but that sin impacts every part of a person’s being and that people now have a sinful nature with a natural inclination toward sin, making every human being fundamentally corrupt at heart.
• Therefore, human beings are not able to think, will, nor do anything good in and of themselves, including merit favor from God, save ourselves from the judgment and condemnation of God that we deserve for our sin, or even believe the gospel.
• If anyone is to be saved, God must take the initiative.

Atonement for All (Article 2)

• God loves the world and desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
• Therefore, God gave his only Son to die for the sins of the whole world so as to provide forgiveness and salvation for all people.
• While God has provided for the salvation of all people by Christ's sacrificial and substitutionary death for all, the benefits of Christ's death are received by grace through faith and are only effective for those who believe.

Freed by Grace {to Believe} (Article 4)

• Because of Total Depravity and Atonement for All (as described above), God calls all people everywhere to repent and believe the gospel, and graciously enables those who hear the gospel to respond to it positively in faith.
• God regenerates those who believe in Christ (faith logically precedes regeneration).
• God’s saving grace is resistible, which is to say that he dispenses his calling, drawing, and convicting grace (which would bring us to salvation if responded to with faith) in such a way that we may reject it. Those who hear the gospel may either accept it by grace or reject it to their own eternal destruction.
• Apart from the realm of pleasing the Lord and doing spiritual good, people often have free will, which means that, with respect to an action, they can at least either do the action or refrain from doing it. People often have genuine choices and are therefore correspondingly able to make choices.
• God has ultimate and absolute free will. His choice to supernaturally free the will of sinners by his grace to believe in Christ is a matter of the exercise of his own free will and sovereignty.

Conditional Election (Article 1)

• God has sovereignly decided to choose only those who have faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, for salvation and his eternal blessing.
• God has foreknown from eternity which individuals would believe in Christ.
• Among Arminians, there are two different views of election conditioned on faith:
  1. Individual election: The classic view in which God individually chose each believer based upon His foreknowledge of each one’s faith and so predestined each to eternal life
  2. Corporate election: Election to salvation is primarily of the Church as a people and embraces individuals only in faith-union with Christ the Chosen One and as members of his people. Since the election of the individual derives from the election of Christ and the corporate people of God, individuals become elect when they believe and remain elect only as long as they believe.
     (For more on corporate election, see here.)

Security in Christ (Article 5)

• Since salvation comes through faith in Christ, the security of our salvation continues by faith in Christ.
• Just as the Holy Spirit empowered us to believe in Christ, so he empowers us to continue believing in Christ.
• God protects our faith relationship with him from any outside force irresistibly snatching us away from Christ or our faith, and he preserves us in salvation as long as we trust in Christ.
• Arminians have differing views of whether Scripture teaches that believers can forsake faith in Christ and so perish, or whether God irresistibly keeps believers from forsaking their faith and therefore entering into eternal condemnation (as unbelievers).

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

LOL!

if you knew how "straight arrow" he is in living you'd blush at the above remark.
he's so holy you need sunglasses.
he is completely opposed to believers indulging in any sin, himself first and foremost.

so, Red himself would NEVER be dismissed as an antinomian.

so let's make a distinction between what you THINK he teaches/proclaims as the Gospel, and the person himself.



see....here's your problem.
and the whole thing SHOULD end here.

but it won't.

arminians seem to deliberately misinterpret passages like Romans 8 (of course after ripping 7 out and placing it in Saul of Tarsus' life cuz NOBODY sins after righteousness is IMPUTED to them: they only make mistakes).

Romans 8
Life in the Spirit
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set youb free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,c he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

see....a careful reading tells us that this is NOT a discussion of Christians using Grace as an excuse for licentiousness: it is a distinction between REGENERATE VS UNREGENERATE MEN.

from this error, its just a short hop over to Wesley's house where everybody who is anybody is "in The Spirit" and very holy.



total nonsense: but go and cherry pick through his posts to cobble together him saying that sanctification is "optional", and bring it back here.

what you are having trouble with is that Red refuses to write off sinners, professing ones or lost ones.

also, above you attempt to plant an arminian flag in "back-sliding" - ridiculous...total rubbish.

some folks were raised in christian (or other relatively moral) homes and don't know about enslavement to sin on the level that someone like me did....so they don't know what sanctification for that person looks like, or long it takes, or how painful it is or how many victories and failures there are: so??

all that means, and i find it frightening, is if as a homeless heroin addict and alcoholic i showed up on church's doorsill i'd have a stopwatch going from minute one???? and somebody measuring my justification by how hard my sanctification is???

come on Fire - where's the love, bro?

no...Red can speak for himself, and everybody knows i disagree with him on a lot: but you have him ALL wrong on this one. you came in partway through a STRAWMAN drama that's an Oscar nominee for sure

anyways.....why try to argue against HYPER-CALVINISM when i don't think there's a hyper-cal antinomian in the house? it's just silly.



LOL...okay.
but Red would go up in flames saying I FORGIVE YOU JOHN



all well respected teachers:

i'm not a big paul washer fan.
macarthur's a dispensationalist so i rarely listen to him.
piper's ok, but i have some issues there as well.

i prefer Kim Riddlebarger (Reformed Covenant), Sizer (Reformed Covenant), Rosebrough (Confessionsal Lutheran), Micahel brown (Christ Reformed), Rosenbladt (Lutheran), Phil Johnson (Baptist who agrees with Calvin) and lots of others.

i also agree with PPS on this one: the two are reconcilable and it is a huge waste of time.

anyhoo.....

so what about that Romans 8, huh?

Calvinists VS Arminians

It appears that you have mistaken me with LBG. Not once have I ever insinuated that Romans 7 refers to Paul before conversion. I am well aware that man, in and of himself can do nothing to save himself. I take no issue at all with the teaching of Original sin. However as Romans chapters 6-8, as well as 1 John chapters 1-3, clearly state that those who walk in the Spirit / Abide in Christ will not fullfill the lusts of the flesh. These scriptures should be taken in context and taken literally. In no way shape or form do they insinuate some form of imaginary grace where someone can be free from sin while still freely and willingly indulging in sin.

1 John 3:4-6 " 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Here is the core beliefs of each beliefs system:


ARMINIANISM
Arminianism may be represented by the acronym FACTS:
Freed by Grace (to Believe)
Atonement for All
Conditional Election
Total Depravity
Security in Christ
These points broadly and roughly correspond to the historic Articles of Remonstrance (though they are not specifically a representation of them), which were composed in July 1610 by early Arminians and constitute the first formal summary of Arminian theology. Article numbers have been indicated for each point for convenient comparison. The points are presented here by logical order rather than acronym order to facilitate explanation most helpfully.
Total Depravity (Article 3)
Humanity was created in the image of God, good and upright, but fell from its original sinless state through willful disobedience, leaving humanity sinful, separated from God, and under the sentence of divine condemnation.
Total depravity does not mean that human beings are as bad as they could be, but that sin impacts every part of a person’s being and that people now have a sinful nature with a natural inclination toward sin, making every human being fundamentally corrupt at heart.
Therefore, human beings are not able to think, will, nor do anything good in and of themselves, including merit favor from God, save ourselves from the judgment and condemnation of God that we deserve for our sin, or even believe the gospel.
If anyone is to be saved, God must take the initiative.
Atonement for All (Article 2)
God loves the world and desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Therefore, God gave his only Son to die for the sins of the whole world so as to provide forgiveness and salvation for all people.
While God has provided for the salvation of all people by Christ's sacrificial and substitutionary death for all, the benefits of Christ's death are received by grace through faith and are only effective for those who believe.
Freed by Grace {to Believe} (Article 4)
Because of Total Depravity and Atonement for All (as described above), God calls all people everywhere to repent and believe the gospel, and graciously enables those who hear the gospel to respond to it positively in faith.
God regenerates those who believe in Christ (faith logically precedes regeneration).
God’s saving grace is resistible, which is to say that he dispenses his calling, drawing, and convicting grace (which would bring us to salvation if responded to with faith) in such a way that we may reject it. Those who hear the gospel may either accept it by grace or reject it to their own eternal destruction.
Apart from the realm of pleasing the Lord and doing spiritual good, people often have free will, which means that, with respect to an action, they can at least either do the action or refrain from doing it. People often have genuine choices and are therefore correspondingly able to make choices.
God has ultimate and absolute free will. His choice to supernaturally free the will of sinners by his grace to believe in Christ is a matter of the exercise of his own free will and sovereignty.
Conditional Election (Article 1)
God has sovereignly decided to choose only those who have faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, for salvation and his eternal blessing.
God has foreknown from eternity which individuals would believe in Christ.
Among Arminians, there are two different views of election conditioned on faith:
Individual election: The classic view in which God individually chose each believer based upon His foreknowledge of each one’s faith and so predestined each to eternal life
Corporate election: Election to salvation is primarily of the Church as a people and embraces individuals only in faith-union with Christ the Chosen One and as members of his people. Since the election of the individual derives from the election of Christ and the corporate people of God, individuals become elect when they believe and remain elect only as long as they believe.
(For more on corporate election, see here.)
Security in Christ (Article 5)
Since salvation comes through faith in Christ, the security of our salvation continues by faith in Christ.
Just as the Holy Spirit empowered us to believe in Christ, so he empowers us to continue believing in Christ.
God protects our faith relationship with him from any outside force irresistibly snatching us away from Christ or our faith, and he preserves us in salvation as long as we trust in Christ.
Arminians have differing views of whether Scripture teaches that believers can forsake faith in Christ and so perish, or whether God irresistibly keeps believers from forsaking their faith and therefore entering into eternal condemnation (as unbelievers).
CALVINISM
The Calvinist position may be represented by the acronym TULIP:
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints
These are derived from the Synod of Dort, a local synod in Holland, which convened in 1618-1619 to contradict and condemn the Articles of Remonstrance. Here is a brief explanation of each point, with corresponding article numbers from the Articles of Remonstrance indicated for convenient comparison:
Total Depravity (Article 3)
Same as the Arminian points
Though we do not differ on how to describe human depravity, Calvinists do also believe that this state requires that God first regenerate a sinner before he can believe in Christ, making him alive and giving him a new, holy nature. But regeneration does not merely enable the sinner to believe; it irresistibly causes the sinner to believe.
Unconditional Election (Article 1)
God chose some individuals unconditionally from eternity for eternal life according to his own good pleasure, completely apart from anything having to do with the person, including merit, good works, or foreseen faith.
God withheld his mercy from the rest of humanity, ordaining them to dishonor and wrath for their sin.
Thus, by the decree of God and for his glory, some people are unconditionally predestined to eternal life, and others are left (and so ordained) to eternal death because of their sin, making two specific and static groups of individuals that can never be changed. (Some Calvinists believe that God purposed to glorify his name by unconditionally choosing some individuals for eternal blessing and some individuals for eternal Hell, and that God ordained the Fall and decided to create the world to accomplish this goal.)
Limited Atonement (Article 2)
Christ died only for those certain individuals whom God chose unconditionally from eternity for salvation, enduring the punishment for their sins in their place.
Christ’s death for those who have been unconditionally elected irresistibly brings about their salvation and everything necessary for it, including repentance and faith in Christ.
Irresistible Grace (Article 4)
Those whom God has unconditionally elected, and for whom Jesus died, God will draw irresistibly to faith in Christ by his grace through regeneration (making faith inevitable).
When God brings elect sinners to Christ, he irresistibly causes them to be willing to come to Christ and to come to him in faith freely. (While we are presenting the Calvinist view objectively and typically without comment, the self-contradiction here is just too obvious to let pass: "irresistibly causes them to come willingly and freely?")
While God calls all without distinction to faith in Christ (the general call), he only calls those he has chosen unconditionally in a way that cannot be resisted (the effectual call).
Those God has not chosen will reject the gospel call of their own will and cannot do otherwise.
Perseverance of the Saints (Article 5)
Those whom God has unconditionally elected and for whom Jesus has died and whom God has irresistibly drawn to faith in Christ will inevitably persevere in their faith and can neither totally nor finally fall away from Christ, because God will irresistibly cause them to persevere. Therefore, their blessed eternal destiny with God is secure.
This perseverance is not based on the believer, who may waver and actually fall into serious sin for periods of time, but is rather based on the continued grace of God.
Those who appear to be believers, but fall away from the faith and die without faith in Christ, demonstrate that they had not truly come to saving faith in the first place.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

Unfortunately, neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is correct, so the debate is essentially moot.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Unfortunately, neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is correct, so the debate is essentially moot.

May I ask a quick question if you don't mind? I've noticed that the majority of those who tend to believe this way ussually are Once Saved Always Saved. Would that be an accurate assesment of your beliefs? No disrespect intended. I'm just curious.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

May I ask a quick question if you don't mind? I've noticed that the majority of those who tend to believe this way ussually are Once Saved Always Saved. Would that be an accurate assesment of your beliefs? No disrespect intended. I'm just curious.

Typically, the debate is framed as "Once Saved Always Saved" i.e. Perseverance of the Saints i.e. Eternal Security on the Calvinist side, and Conditional Security on the Arminian side. This is a good example of how each position is only partially correct, and therefore neither is correct, since scripture teaches both sides of the issue.

There are those who are eternally secure and will never fall away. These are Christ's sheep, the elect. However, there are also those who believe for a while and later fall away (Luke 8:13). Those who don't fall away, who endure to the end (Matthew 24:13), were known to God from before they were even born (Romans 9:11). God knows their salvation is eternally secure, and they will be saved.

Scripture doesn't tell us how to distinguish between the two. After all, we can't see the future, so we don't know what someone might or might not do. But, God can, and He does know. That's why we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (i.e. to persevere), since the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. If you want security in your salvation, simply don't turn away.

So to sum it up, there is eternal security, but God is the one who knows, not us. Enter by the narrow gate.