What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Yahshua]

You might want to consider what kind of beings The Almighty intended to create.
Those he could dwell with by their own free will in eternity.

It might have been easier to have creatures that could be annhilated.
Why bother with all the dying on a cross aggravation if you can annhilate everything & start again.

Truly, it's an interesting consideration but it side-steps the question I posed regarding ability/capability.

The doctrine of the immortal soul is "once a soul is created it can never be destroyed, not even by The Almighty", which calls into question His lack of ability; that He can not undo everything He has done.

Laura provided the verse - spoke by the Messiah - that answers the question.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul can be destroyed by the Almighty else it calls into question His abilities.

 

[Yahshua]

So in a sentence that is set up as 2 sides of a coin, one is literal (eternal life) and the other is figurative (eternal punishment).
Not a logical reading IMO.

Convenient that the one we like should be eternal (lasting forever)
and the one we don't like should be eternal (figurative)

The two sides of the coin are:

-Alive forever
-Dead forever

...contrast this with what we know about the two resurrections. At this point and time, no one is dead forever because they will either resurrect with the righteous before the millennium or resurrect with the unrighteous after the millennium. But death at this point and time isn't "forever"...people have a chance.

But after the Great White Throne judgment, it becomes final.

 

[Aaron56]

Why bother with all the dying on a cross aggravation if you can annhilate everything & start again.

How cheap is dirt, am I right?

The reason He did not start again was because God already established man as the third-party beneficiary of a divine covenant. This covenant included the choice to have humans as His heirs. Had He scrapped them, He would have proven to be incompetent. Today, as the we approach the Day of the Lord, it is still His intent for believers to put on display, to the spiritual opponents of God, His divine wisdom. Being all-powerful does not constitute righteousness. God must be shown to be righteous in His decision to choose man as His heirs.

 

[CS1]

Truly, it's an interesting consideration but it side-steps the question I posed regarding ability/capability.

The doctrine of the immortal soul is "once a soul is created it can never be destroyed, not even by The Almighty", which calls into question His lack of ability; that He can not undo everything He has done.

Laura provided the verse - spoke by the Messiah - that answers the question.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul can be destroyed by the Almighty else it calls into question His abilities.

the Idea God can't is not even plausible.
God made the soul and spirit in HIS likeness, eternal. His word HE has placed above HIS name meaning: our understanding is not needed nor effective in reducing His ability. When Jesus says Depart from ME to the place that is of everlasting punishment all plausibility, and the possibility of what Jesus said NOT happening IS Absaltuely to be rejected. No Human rationale, thought, reason, can change what The Word of God said will happen.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Revelation 21:8 says that those people will experience their second death (annihilation) in the lake of fire. They won't be lingering outside of the New Heavens and New Earth for very long.

Revelation 21:8
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I'm not conviced the second death means annhilation. I would need more convincing.
I think I would have to see a longer study. There are a lot of verses to deal with, especially from Jesus.
Eternal punishment is not a hill I'm willing to die on though.

But verses like the one below would have to be addressed.
2 Thess 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord
and from the glory of his might

 

[SophieT]

Dear Lucy, a spirit being can't continue to burn as it isn't matter--ONLY matter burns. Again, "no one can see God and live." --they will be destroyed simply by being in His presence at the judgment. Also as I said, quoting the angel in Revelation "There will be no more sorrow and no more tears. " NO MORE. Everything is made new--no more sin, sorrow or death. Why would anyone want to believe other wise?

did the devil get a do over?

 

[Yahshua]

the Idea God can't is not even plausible.

Agreed.

No Human rationale, thought, reason, can change what The Word of God said will happen.

...And so He's given His Word for us to understand what will happen, else why give it? Then we can establish what's plausible and what is unlikely. So we must turn to what the Word establishes from the beginning, as I'm sure you'll agree. Consider this...

Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


The Word says man becomes a soul. It doesn't say man possesses a soul.


Psalm 8:4-5 (Heb 2:7)
what is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him? You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor.


The Word says man (a soul) isn't made the same as angels but lower than them. So what are angels?


Psalm 104:4 (Heb 1:7)
Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:


The Word says they are spirits.

----

So we're not spirits (angels) in bodies but are "dust brought to life" (souls). This is why the condemnation upon Adam (that we're saved from through faith in Messiah) is:


Gen 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


^This is the condition of death; the condemnation. Because Adam is dust, all in Adam are to return to the dust from where Adam was taken.

Consider this question: where do you believe Adam is right now (if we're standing on what the Word says)? Did he return to dust or is he in heaven or hell?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Here's a related question, which addresses the mother doctrine to "eternal torment": "the innate immortality of the soul".

Can The Almighty create a Being He can't then uncreate (i.e.destroy)? Or better said, can the Almighty uncreate (destroy) Beings He has created, or is it impossible one they're created?

Just so this doesn't escalate, I should mention that I wasn't suggesting that God is UNABLE to do anything.

 

[Aaron56]

I'm not conviced the second death means annhilation. I would need more convincing.
I think I would have to see a longer study. There are a lot of verses to deal with, especially from Jesus.
Eternal punishment is not a hill I'm willing to die on though.

But verses like the one below would have to be addressed.
2 Thess 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord
and from the glory of his might

One of the issues lies within the dual meaning of words. For example, we are told "God so loved the world" yet we are warned to "don't love the world". It's the same word. Distinction comes by knowledge or revelation. In the first example, the world means "the systems of the world organized by Satan" in the second example the world means the human race.

Everlasting and eternal are like that: they could mean "with no end", "from age to age", or "until the end of the age". Eternal can also be an adjective used to signify from where something originated or the essence of a thing, like an Idaho potato or cherry pie. A dictionary won't help in many of these matters. We will need wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and sometimes revelation. But these are all things readily available to those who love the Lord.

Your wisdom is showing already in that you are unwilling to die on this hill. It is telling that you have a desire for truth without that insistence of being right. With that perspective you will surely receive much from the Father, in my humble opinion.

Aaron56

 

[ewq1938]

John_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life ; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"shall not see life" means will not be alive.



Universalism -all people (saved and unsaved) will see life in the New Heaven and new Earth for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Eternal torment -all unsaved people will see life in torment (lake of fire) for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Annihilationism - all unsaved people will not see life as Christ said.--TRUE DOCTRINE


Only Annihilation matches what Christ taught in John_3:36.


The first death is only death of physical body. The second death is death of body, soul and spirit. If one is saved, then body, soul and spirit are preserved but the unsaved will not have theirs preserved because they will be dead and burned up which destroys them completely.


fate of the unsaved:


Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .


fate of the saved:


1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ .



The Hebrew word for “fire” is esh. It is spelled with the Hebrew letters, aleph and sheen. Aleph means an ox and denotes strength. Sheen means teeth and denotes consuming or devouring. Thus, “fire” literally means a strong devourer. Hence, our God is a consuming fire (Deut. 4:24; Heb. 12:29).


The bible promotes Annihilationism.

 

[rayzor]

One of the issues lies within the dual meaning of words. For example, we are told "God so loved the world" yet we are warned to "don't love the world". It's the same word. Distinction comes by knowledge or revelation. In the first example, the world means "the systems of the world organized by Satan" in the second example the world means the human race.

Everlasting and eternal are like that: they could mean "with no end", "from age to age", or "until the end of the age". Eternal can also be an adjective used to signify from where something originated or the essence of a thing, like an Idaho potato or cherry pie. A dictionary won't help in many of these matters. We will need wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and sometimes revelation. But these are all things readily available to those who love the Lord.

Your wisdom is showing already in that you are unwilling to die on this hill. It is telling that you have a desire for truth without that insistence of being right. With that perspective you will surely receive much from the Father, in my humble opinion.

Aaron56

Diametrically opposed Oxymoronic synonyms? I sure theres even a list some where.Well like in archaic urban vernacular bad often men't good.

 

[CS1]

Agreed.

...And so He's given His Word for us to understand what will happen, else why give it? Then we can establish what's plausible and what is unlikely. So we must turn to what the Word establishes from the beginning, as I'm sure you'll agree. Consider this...

Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


The Word says man becomes a soul. It doesn't say man possesses a soul.


Psalm 8:4-5 (Heb 2:7)
what is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him? You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor.


The Word says man (a soul) isn't made the same as angels but lower than them. So what are angels?


Psalm 104:4 (Heb 1:7)
Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:


The Word says they are spirits.

----

So we're not spirits (angels) in bodies but are "dust brought to life" (souls). This is why the condemnation upon Adam (that we're saved from through faith in Messiah) is:


Gen 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


^This is the condition of death; the condemnation. Because Adam is dust, all in Adam are to return to the dust from where Adam was taken.

Consider this question: where do you believe Adam is right now (if we're standing on what the Word says)? Did he return to dust or is he in heaven or hell?

Life is in the Blood.

Please explain HOW the blood of Able cried to God from the ground? And The Blood of Jesus speaks a better thing than the blood of Able. God created Us to be with HIM forever.

 

[rayzor]

Like!? to me it seems: The bible says life is in the blood even before Jesus shed his blood.though it was done before the foundation of the world.If life is in our blood i guess we can cry out to? If our blood is shed. It could be a idiomatic expression like it's raining cats and dogs.,,,Or shes all jelly and no toast.

 

[CS1]

Like!? to me it seems: The bible says life is in the blood even before Jesus shed his blood.though it was done before the foundation of the world.If life is in our blood i guess we can cry out to? If our blood is shed. It could be a idiomatic expression like it's raining cats and dogs.,,,Or shes all jelly and no toast.

I ensure you the Holy God is going to and IS NOW Holding this Nation and every nation that has shed Innocent Blood accountable. That Blood is crying out to the One true God for Justice. Over 61 million murdered BABIES. They HAVE NOT BEEN ANNIHILATED.

IT IS BECAUSE OF THE BLLOD OF Jesus Speaking better thing than that of the blood of Able.

Jesus' blood speaks to grace, and mercy today. How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? Hebrews 12:24.

 

[Nehemiah6]

What is TRUTH? Scripture tells us plainly what it is. God is a God of justice--this means he fairly metes out His Justice. He is above all a God of love and a God of mercy. We ought never to equate evil with God.

You are trying to avoid the plain teaching of Scripture regarding eternal Hell. Which means that you are also perverting the Gospel.

1. Since it is the Lord Jesus Christ who declared that Hell was created for the devil and his angels, we must conclude that this is indeed God's justice.

2. And since it is Christ Himself who warned all sinners that it would be better to lose a limb than go into Hell, we must conclude that that too is a part of God's justice.

MARK 9: SOLEMN AND DIRE WARNINGS ABOUT ETERNAL HELL BY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Note: Those who deny the reality of Hell make God and Christ into liars. And it is because of God's mercy, love and grace that He offers salvation to all. So that none should perish but that all should come to repentance. Indeed God now commands ALL MEN everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).

Also note: The word translated as "hell" in the passage is the Greek word "gehenna" which is equivalent to the Lake of Fire.

 

[montana123]

I believe in eternal torment, as probably most of us do here. But this guy lays out a pretty good argument for annihilation.

If it is annihilation why would Jesus say there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But this could mean that they will suffer in hell but then be annihilated in the lake of fire for hell and the lake of fire are separate which the wicked are not thrown in to the lake of fire until the millennial reign of Christ is over.

The Bible says that the wicked shall go in to the lower parts of the earth which is hell.

Hell is prepared for the devil and his angels.

The earth one day will become the habitation of devils which they are confined to the earth and deceive all people who do not love God to follow the New Age Christ, man of sin.

The Bible says that the earth shall be burned up and all the works of it.

The Bible says that death and hell are thrown in to the lake of fire and since hell is in the lower parts of the earth the earth shall be thrown in the lake of fire with all the devils and wicked people.

So it could be that there is suffering, weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell, but then annihilation in the lake of fire.

This is a way to look at it but to reconcile weeping and gnashing of teeth and annihilation but I believe that it will not be annihilation in the lake of fire.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus said it is everlasting punishment.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The Bible says that those that worship the beast are tormented, and they have no rest day or night which is not annihilation.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

Their worm dies not which means they will feel the affects of the flesh for eternity which they will feel the fire as the flesh feels the fire and the fire is never quenched which is not annihilation.

 

[CS1]

If it is annihilation why would Jesus say there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But this could mean that they will suffer in hell but then be annihilated in the lake of fire for hell and the lake of fire are separate which the wicked are not thrown in to the lake of fire until the millennial reign of Christ is over.

The Bible says that the wicked shall go in to the lower parts of the earth which is hell.

Hell is prepared for the devil and his angels.

The earth one day will become the habitation of devils which they are confined to the earth and deceive all people who do not love God to follow the New Age Christ, man of sin.

The Bible says that the earth shall be burned up and all the works of it.

The Bible says that death and hell are thrown in to the lake of fire and since hell is in the lower parts of the earth the earth shall be thrown in the lake of fire with all the devils and wicked people.

So it could be that there is suffering, weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell, but then annihilation in the lake of fire.

This is a way to look at it but to reconcile weeping and gnashing of teeth and annihilation but I believe that it will not be annihilation in the lake of fire.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus said it is everlasting punishment.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The Bible says that those that worship the beast are tormented, and they have no rest day or night which is not annihilation.

Jesus did not really mean what HE said. If you and I knew the English language better and used human reasoning aka carnal mindedness we would see Hell is not literal.

 

[rayzor]

I ensure you the Holy God is going to and IS NOW Holding this Nation and every nation that has shed Innocent Blood accountable. That Blood is crying out to the One true God for Justice. Over 61 million murdered BABIES. They HAVE NOT BEEN ANNIHILATED.

IT IS BECAUSE OF THE BLLOD OF Jesus Speaking better thing than that of the blood of Able.

Jesus' blood speaks to grace, and mercy today. How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? Hebrews 12:24.

Just a reminder some one once love those people that are now enforcing evil law
I would that we all die of abortion if we just grow up to lose our soul!One can't really judge a nation.Simply because nations are rules laws systems ect. Its those people that enforce those laws that would be judged,,it might have been better for then if someone had aborted them.,,,,side note,,,Hell is wrong.

 

[CS1]

I have never heard this argument--anywhere. All will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."--2nd Corinthians 5:10

thank you, it shows I have studied the word of God and am able to teach you something you did not previously know

 

[CS1]

Just a reminder some one once love those people that are now enforcing evil law
I would that we all die of abortion if we just grow up to lose our soul!One can't really judge a nation.Simply because nations are rules laws systems ect. Its those people that enforce those laws that would be judged,,it might have been better for then if someone had aborted them.,,,,side note,,,Hell is wrong.

tell that to the people of Isreal who sacrificed the children to the god of beleck. God put them in captivity. The nation was over thrown by other nations and it is happening to America right now