What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Diakonos]

You'll find I don't mince words very often.

Are you referring to your personal study or here online, or both?

I gave you Genesis 1:5, but I guess you missed the part that defines what a complete day/night cycle: "And the evening and the morning were the first day"

Evening and morning = a day (24 hours)

This can be confusing when the same words hold more than one meaning and are used differently within the same sentence.

I actually agree with this as a whole. Gen 1:5 is proof that the Hebrew word yom has more than one definition; here 2 of the 9 definitions are used (daytime and 24-hour period).

In Genesis 2:17, the same Hebrew word that is used for Day (H3117. yom) in Genesis 1:15 is present

I will address that later in this comment.

That's a moot point. The sunlight is already established to have been present in the Garden of Eden in Chapter 1.

That has no influence on the meaning of yom in the account of Eden (Gen 2). Are you saying that because the first mention of yom refers to a 24- day, then that means that every use of yom is a 24-hour day?

the context of Genesis 1 and 2 uses the word Yom to define a ~12 hour period

That is an assumption, not proof of your previous claim.
In Genesis 2:4, "these are the generations of..." is the transition from one context to the next. This is the first transition of the 12 major divisions in the book of Genesis [2:4, 5:1, 6:9, 10:1, 11:10, 11:27, 25:12, 19, 36:1, 9, 37:2]).

human Adam would have understood a day to be the time on Earth that is either a 12 hour period with sunlight or a 24 hour period with the "evening and the morning."

More assumptions.
How would Adam know that?

Why this is important is because you insisted in post #720 that Romans 5:17 is talking about physical death. After all this, let's take another look at the verse again:

Romans 5:17
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

The whole passage is talking about physical death:
-"Christ died "
-"the death of His Son"
-"sin entered into the world, and death through sin "
-"death spread to all "
-"by the transgression of the one the many died "
-"death reigned through the one "
-"sin reigned in death"

“For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.” (Romans 5:6-14)​

Rather than assuming the context is the same, "therefore" proves that it is the same context.

​

Romans 5 is an explanation of the fall of man, its consequences, and its redemption; Romans 5 explains Genesis 2, not the other way around. That is how developmental revelation works. Unclear OT details are clarified in the NT.

This is about physical death. Jesus' death is topologically linked to Adam's death (Rom 5:14). Adam physically died in his sin, condemning the world to God's justice. Jesus physically died without his own sin, releasing the world to God's mercy.

“mercy triumphs over judgment.” (James 2:13)​

 

[Diakonos]

Well....looks like we are left with complete radio silence, or incoherent blubbering and vexatious red ex's (weeping and gnashing of teeth IMO) from the annihilationists.

I'm calling that a victory for them that hold the biblically correct righteous judgment doctrine.
But we all know it just HAD to turn our this way........

Hold on, I'm putting the last nail in the coffin.

 

[Laura798]

I'd NEVER put my old pal @cv5 on ignore!

----

Do you wanna discuss something ol'buddy ol'pal?

I don't know why you think it's so funny. It's actually pretty rude and putting down of people to laugh at their ideas especially one that is not that strange.
In your eyes what happens is a blotting out / non-existence / no-consciousness / GONE. Can you fathom that? I don't think you can which actually speaks to the argument of eternal punishment. Then again as a conscious creature it's hard to take one's mind to that place just because one does not know it.
(again I'm on the opposite POV as you but I was taught that POV and I am most definitely open to being wrong. What this thread has shown me is that I don't know my Bible anywhere near as much as I thought I did)

To put it crudely it's like someone in the Sahara missing ice cream.

That is not doctrinal support. That is, in my mind, logic. It's very much light obliterating darkness in a room. There is no stench of darkness, it's just gone and will be gone as long as there is light.

I don't know why you think it's so funny. It's actually pretty rude and putting down of people to laugh at their ideas especially one that is not that strange.
In your eyes what happens is a blotting out / non-existence / no-consciousness / GONE. Can you fathom that? I don't think you can which actually speaks to the argument of eternal punishment. Then again as a conscious creature it's hard to take one's mind to that place just because one does not know it.
(again I'm on the opposite POV as you but I was taught that POV and I am most definitely open to being wrong. What this thread has shown me is that I don't know my Bible anywhere near as much as I thought I did)

To put it crudely it's like someone in the Sahara missing ice cream.

That is not doctrinal support. That is, in my mind, logic. It's very much light obliterating darkness in a room. There is no stench of darkness, it's just gone and will be gone as long as there is light.

Rude? Are you serious? You need to go back and read the comments of posters like CV5 and Duckybill. We have 1000+ posts at this point. It's like you're coming in at the end of a day long meeting and commenting on the last few words of the conversation. Magenta has posted numerous bible verses and made many good and logical arguments--without attacking anyone. At this point it's like we've been awake all night and we're all getting a little loopy--we are trying to explain simple things like "

Actually dead does means...DEAD."

And there is something much worse than rudeness. It is attributing evil to God which Eternal Conscious Torment does. It also denies that Christ paid the penalty in FULL at the Cross--if ETC is the punishment for sin and not death.

 

[Laura798]

Hold on, I'm putting the last nail in the coffin.

“There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ’s moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment” (Bertrand Russell, Why I Am Not a Christian).

 

[Gardenias]

I'll bet Betrand Russell would LOVE A DO OVER of that statement.

I don't understand why you've quoted him either.

 

[Laura798]

Hold on, I'm putting the last nail in the coffin.

And now Diakonos, you show your true colors...the only coffin you've nailed is your own.

 

[Laura798]

I'll bet Betrand Russell would LOVE A DO OVER of that statement.

I don't understand why you've quoted him either.

Gardenias, because he said he couldn't believe any truly humane person would believe in hell (as a place of eternal torment)--it was the reason he gave why He would not want to be a Christian. It is a reason many give for not wanting anything to do with Christianity--who would want to have anything to do with someone who thought torture--never mind eternal---would be an appropriate form of punishment for anyone.

 

[Gardenias]

Well don't you see that as an oxymoron,Laura?
Jesus was truly humane ,and human and he is God!
If they would look instead to his promises there would be no worry of punishment of unbelief.
That choice with that flimsy excuse will cost them greatly BC Jesus paid their way into a heavenly realm!

 

[cv5]

Hold on, I'm putting the last nail in the coffin.

Thanks buddy. My hammering arm was getting a bit tired....

 

[Laura798]

A word to you lady. Take heed....

Isa 30:9-10
That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

Thanks for warning me about you CV5, but actually I already figured it out, but the um... 'smooth' thing--you might want to work on that. Just sayin'...

 

[Runningman]

I actually agree with this as a whole. Gen 1:5 is proof that the Hebrew word yom has more than one definition; here 2 of the 9 definitions are used (daytime and 24-hour period).

What a day is is defined by the context of the passages of Genesis 1 and 2. A day contains light and darkness. Adam died the day he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We have already ruled out that Adam immediately died physically, therefore he died a spiritual death.

That has no influence on the meaning of yom in the account of Eden (Gen 2). Are you saying that because the first mention of yom refers to a 24- day, then that means that every use of yom is a 24-hour day?

In this context, yes that is quite clear. There's no reason to introduce an alternative definition of yom in Genesis 1 and 2, where it is already being defined as day/night, such as one from Zechariah, unless one had ulterior motives to protect a pet false doctrine like eternal torment.

Again, Adam died spiritually on the calendar day he sinned. He didn't die physically. Facts.

That is an assumption, not proof of your previous claim.

"the context of Genesis 1 and 2 uses the word Yom to define a ~12 hour period "

This is not an assumption, but rather a fact. The day/night period is measurable and verifiable to be approximately 24 hours.

More assumptions.
How would Adam know that?

"human Adam would have understood a day to be the time on Earth that is either a 12 hour period with sunlight or a 24 hour period with the "evening and the morning."

Adam knows it the same way anyone knows that the day has sunlight and the night has darkness.

The whole passage is talking about physical death:

That's false. I'll put a nail in that coffin to put it to rest soon.

-"Christ died "
-"the death of His Son"
-"sin entered into the world, and death through sin "
-"death spread to all "
-"by the transgression of the one the many died "
-"death reigned through the one "
-"sin reigned in death"

“For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.” (Romans 5:6-14)​

​

You left out a key verse that ties the whole meaning of the passages together. Romans 5 is about spiritual death and eternal life by Christ Jesus our Lord. People don't go to heaven or hell based on their physical death, their ultimate destination is decided based on their spiritual status as residing in or outside of Christ.

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

​

Romans 5

is an explanation of the fall of man, its consequences, and its redemption; Romans 5 explains Genesis 2, not the other way around. That is how developmental revelation works.

That's false and bad hermeneutics . Many times an Old Testament prophecy is fulfilled in the New Testament in order explain why something is happening. OT and NT revelation enhance each other, one doesn't void the other as you seem to say.

Unclear OT details are clarified in the NT.

This is about physical death. Jesus' death is topologically linked to Adam's death (Rom 5:14). Adam physically died in his sin, condemning the world to God's justice. Jesus physically died without his own sin, releasing the world to God's mercy.

“mercy triumphs over judgment.” (James 2:13)​

False.

As I already pointed out, the point of Romans 5 is about spiritual death through Adam and spiritual life through Christ.

Romans 5:21
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:14
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Laura798]

Well don't you see that as an oxymoron,Laura?
Jesus was truly humane ,and human and he is God!
If they would look instead to his promises there would be no worry of punishment of unbelief.
That choice with that flimsy excuse will cost them greatly BC Jesus paid their way into a heavenly realm!

You missed the point Gardenias. Would you want a friend who would set a cat's tail on fire for scratching the sofa or put their child's hand on the stove as punishment? Would you want a friend who would set fire to someone's house that wronged them? How much more terrible is it then, to say God would do far worse, by torturing people with fire, causing agonizing and unrelenting pain for all eternity?

 

[Runningman]

Hold on, I'm putting the last nail in the coffin.

Honestly, I think you're digging a hole. This isn't looking good for eternal tormenters.

 

[49]

Wow!! Am not visiting this thread ever again!

 

[Laura798]

Well don't you see that as an oxymoron,Laura?
Jesus was truly humane ,and human and he is God!
If they would look instead to his promises there would be no worry of punishment of unbelief.
That choice with that flimsy excuse will cost them greatly BC Jesus paid their way into a heavenly realm!

And Gardenias, you would never call it a 'flimsy excuse' if you found out your future husband had actually set his first wife on fire for cheating on him. I believe once that was discovered you would run in the opposite direction!

 

[Laura798]

Here are some interesting Old Testament allusions.....

Isa 30:30-33
And the LORD will cause His majestic voice to be heard
and His mighty arm to be revealed,
striking in angry wrath with a flame of consuming fire,
and with cloudburst, storm, and hailstones.
For Assyria will be shattered at the voice of the LORD;
He will strike them with His scepter.
And with every stroke of the rod of punishment
that the LORD brings down on them,
the tambourines and lyres will sound
as He battles with weapons brandished.
For Topheth has long been prepared;
it has been made ready for the king.
Its funeral pyre is deep and wide,
with plenty of fire and wood.
The breath of the LORD, like a torrent of burning sulfur,
sets it ablaze.

Isa 14:9-11
Sheol beneath is eager
to meet you upon your arrival.
It stirs the spirits of the dead to greet you—
all the rulers of the earth.
It makes all the kings of the nations
rise from their thrones.
They will all respond to you, saying,
“You too have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us!”
Your pomp has been brought down to Sheol,
along with the music of your harps.
Maggots are your bed
and worms your blanket.

Here -- this can by you guys' new logo. maybe even get some t-shirts made as an evangelistic outreach tool
... alternatively CV5 you could use it for your profile pic!

 

[Gardenias]

You missed the point Gardenias. Would you want a friend who would set a cat's tail on fire for scratching the sofa or put their child's hand on the stove as punishment? Would you want a friend who would set fire to someone's house that wronged them? How much more terrible is it then, to say God would do far worse, by torturing people with fire, causing agonizing and unrelenting pain for all eternity?

Dear Laura,
You and I have been here before.

His love and compassion makes him the GREATEST OF FRIENDS.
For what human man would lay down his life for a FRIEND, enduring the suffering,pain,agony,torture,burning and agony meant for someone else?

Jesus did,a lamb without spot or blemish who opened not his mouth but took on that suffering for the penalty of sin for others!

Unbelief and denial of Gods word will be the crime that has pushed Gods hand to meet out this penalty!

 

[Ahwatukee]

We're at nearly 1000 posts at this point--half us disagree. The bible says "The wages of sin is death" and I believe it.

Hi Laura!

The fact remains that scripture nowhere teaches annihilation, period. The main on-going problem with this, is because people don't understand the meaning of death in God's word, because they don't study it. Life and death are both eternal conscious states of existence based on an individuals state of being with God. For those who are in Christ, they have been reconciled to God through faith in His Son, having forgiveness of sin and eternal life. For those who do not believe, they simply remain condemned. And if they die in that state, then their record is sealed. Consider the following scripture:

"And they (wicked) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matt.25:46

The word "aionios" which is defined as " without end, never to cease, everlasting" is used for both the wicked and the righteous in the verse above and therefore must retain the same meaning. As an example, if you say that eternal punishment for the wicked refers to annihilation, then for those who are in Christ, would also have to mean temporary eternal life. The word has to mean the same for both. So, since eternal/aionios life is never ending, then eternal/aionios punishment for the wicked must also be never ending. The word cannot mean unending for one and temporary for the other. By the way, in order for a person to experience eternal punishment, one would have to be existing. You people need to start listening and considering that there people whom the Holy Spirit reveals this information to and stop supporting thosee false teachings.

It isn't what you believe or what you've been taught--the question is what does the Word actually say? What you have quoted is the figurative language used in Revelation, but in literal language the end of man is death. 4 Times the angel in Revelation says "the lake of fire IS the second death." Please look through these posts and see the myriad of verses that state this. Also, there's a big problem with the myth of eternal torment. It denies Christ's death paid the FULL penalty for our sin. You are actually saying Christ will be or is currently suffering eternal conscious torment on behalf of all mankind, if THAT is the punishment.

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened."

There will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked where both groups will receive indestructible bodies. The righteous for eternal life in kingdom of God. But for the wicked, an indestructible body mete for their never ending punishment. If you will notice, even after the unrighteous dead are resurrected at the great white throne judgment, they are still referred to as "the dead" which is in reference to their state of being with God, i.e. they are dead in the sins to Him. Then there is the following:

==============================================================
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

In order for a person to be tormented in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb, one would have to be existing. It also states that they will be tormented and will have no rest day and night, which again infers ongoing existence.

Why do people continue to buy into the false teachings that are out there?

 

[Gardenias]

And Gardenias, you would never call it a 'flimsy excuse' if you found out your future husband had actually set his first wife on fire for cheating on him. I believe once that was discovered you would run in the opposite direction!

This statement is not cohesive and makes no sense!

If hypothetically a man does this he deserves all the earthly laws can give him then all heavens punishment.

There is NO EXCUSE!
Furthermore I'm wondering if you do not know how to have a conversation.
You belittled Rayzor for disoriented thinking.......this isn't so good either.


Not picking a fight just don't get you.

 

[ewq1938]

Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)

Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:


“Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him” (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2)


“Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be.” (Letter to the Magnesians in chapter 10)


"And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever. And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: “If ye have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great?” indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever." (Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 34)


Clearly Ignatius of Antioch who was a student of the Apostle John taught that the unsaved would face death as opposed to an eternal life as well as if all were judged according to our sins, we should cease to be which is Annihilation. This is the earliest Annihilationist teachings by a church father that I have so far found. Less than 100 years later the doctrine of eternal torment infected the church fathers and that became prevalant in the church.



Another Annihilationism teaching from the same era of the early Church:

"It is well, therefore, that he who has learned the judgments of the Lord, as many as have been written, should walk in them. For he who keeps these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooses other things shall be destroyed with his works. On this account there will be a resurrection, on this account a retribution. I beseech you who are superiors, if you will receive any counsel of my good-will, have among yourselves those to whom you may show kindness: do not forsake them. For the day is at hand on which all things shall perish with the evil [one]." (Unkown author, the Epistle of Barnabas Chp 21, between AD 70 and 132)



In the first five centuries there were six known theological schools. Four of them taught that all men would EVENTUALLY be rescued from Hell: these being the theological schools at Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea and Edessa/Nisbis. One school, Ephesus, taught Annihilationism (that sinners are totally incinerated into nothingness in Hell). Only one theological school, Rome/Carthage taught eternal punishment. (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Universalism entry, p. 96, Baker Book House.)