What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

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Laura798

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Lady.......I just mopped the floor with your annihilation heresy. It wasn't even close.
As it should be.....
Okay, I was gonna put a sample of a God complex, but you just did that for me CV5.:censored:
 

Laura798

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Lady.......I just mopped the floor with your annihilation heresy. It wasn't even close.
As it should be.....
I feel like I'm in a Ferrari and you're on your tricycle, saying
"Bite my dust!" Pshh...

 

ewq1938

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I feel like I'm in a Ferrari and you're on your tricycle, saying
"Bite my dust!" Pshh...

I call that type of empty declaration as the false declaration of victory fallacy.


Proof by declaring victory is one of the many smokescreens that are used to cover the fact that the reasoning is based on one of the three fallacies of Agrippa's trilemma. Whenever a logical fallacy is committed, the fallacy has its roots in Agrippa's trilemma. All human thought (without Divine revelation) is based on one of three unhappy possibilities. These three possibilities are infinite regression, circular reasoning, or axiomatic thinking. This problem is known as Agrippa's trilemma. Some have claimed that only logic and math can be known without Divine revelation; however, that is not true. Without Divine revelation, neither logic nor math can be known. Science is also limited to the pragmatic because of the weakness on human reasoning, which is known as Agrippa's trilemma.

The logical fallacy of proof by false declaration of victory occurs when an announcement of victory is substituted for rational thought. This is very similar in effect to summary dismissal. This is often coupled with a straw man fallacy.

He likes to just announce that somehow Annihilation was disproven when it wasn't, and ET was thoroughly proven "boilerplate" doctrine when that didn't happen either.
 

cv5

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I call that type of empty declaration as the false declaration of victory fallacy.


Proof by declaring victory is one of the many smokescreens that are used to cover the fact that the reasoning is based on one of the three fallacies of Agrippa's trilemma. Whenever a logical fallacy is committed, the fallacy has its roots in Agrippa's trilemma. All human thought (without Divine revelation) is based on one of three unhappy possibilities. These three possibilities are infinite regression, circular reasoning, or axiomatic thinking. This problem is known as Agrippa's trilemma. Some have claimed that only logic and math can be known without Divine revelation; however, that is not true. Without Divine revelation, neither logic nor math can be known. Science is also limited to the pragmatic because of the weakness on human reasoning, which is known as Agrippa's trilemma.

The logical fallacy of proof by false declaration of victory occurs when an announcement of victory is substituted for rational thought. This is very similar in effect to summary dismissal. This is often coupled with a straw man fallacy.

He likes to just announce that somehow Annihilation was disproven when it wasn't, and ET was thoroughly proven "boilerplate" doctrine when that didn't happen either.
You offer more useless vain human philosophy. Nevertheless the Scriptures are perfectly consistent and perfectly clear. When Paul says eternal punishment he means eternal punishment.
 

ewq1938

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You offer more useless vain human philosophy. Nevertheless the Scriptures are perfectly consistent and perfectly clear. When Paul says eternal punishment he means eternal punishment.
This is exactly the type of post that I was talking about.
 

cv5

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This is exactly the type of post that I was talking about.
Say what? You are disputing Paul's veracity? That seems to be a very common problem on this thread. Glad it's not my problem.
 

Laura798

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Jun 6, 2020
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I call that type of empty declaration as the false declaration of victory fallacy.


Proof by declaring victory is one of the many smokescreens that are used to cover the fact that the reasoning is based on one of the three fallacies of Agrippa's trilemma. Whenever a logical fallacy is committed, the fallacy has its roots in Agrippa's trilemma. All human thought (without Divine revelation) is based on one of three unhappy possibilities. These three possibilities are infinite regression, circular reasoning, or axiomatic thinking. This problem is known as Agrippa's trilemma. Some have claimed that only logic and math can be known without Divine revelation; however, that is not true. Without Divine revelation, neither logic nor math can be known. Science is also limited to the pragmatic because of the weakness on human reasoning, which is known as Agrippa's trilemma.

The logical fallacy of proof by false declaration of victory occurs when an announcement of victory is substituted for rational thought. This is very similar in effect to summary dismissal. This is often coupled with a straw man fallacy.

He likes to just announce that somehow Annihilation was disproven when it wasn't, and ET was thoroughly proven "boilerplate" doctrine when that didn't happen either.
Ewq, this was extremely useful--to see that this is an actual tactic people use---it's eye opening for me. And disappointing too, that a Christian would use it.:confused:
 

ewq1938

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Say what? You are disputing Paul's veracity? That seems to be a very common problem on this thread. Glad it's not my problem.

No, I was referring to the other part of your post. I have already told you nobody disagrees with eternal punishment. The punishment the unsaved will suffer will be eternal.
 

Cabrillo

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Consider that in the traditional view, the wicked are not being punished to learn something. There’s nothing remedial about their torment. Rather, God keeps them in existence for the sole purpose of having them experience pain. And this pain is without hope of ever being terminated or relieved. After twenty trillion trillion years of torment, the damned are no closer to completing their dire sentence than they were their first moment of horror. Is this view really compatible with a God whose heart was expressed in Jesus’ dying prayer, “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do” (Lk 23:34)? If agents get to the point where they are indeed hopelessly locked in their resistance to God, it seems more reasonable, just, and Biblical, to believe God would put them out of their misery.

From the annihilationist perspective, God’s justice and mercy unite in condemning the wicked to extinction. He justly punishes their sin and forbids them a place within the Kingdom, mercifully annihilating them precisely so they will not endlessly endure what the traditional view says they endure. source The lie of Satan is alive and repeatedly iterated to this day: "Thou shalt not surely die."
It reminds me of rapture theory. I can't claim to be correct but my opinion is,,, she makes sense to me. I wondered for a while. If everyone in the next kingdom is saved, spirit filled and faithful. Who will Satan tempt when he get's a furlough from prison after the coming 1000 year reign of Christ?

Every knee shall bow & every tongue shall confess... , The Word does not say that everyone that does will get a free pass for eternity. Remember there will be a second judgment.
 

Diakonos

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I can surely see how Adam and Christ are compared, albeit as opposites...one brought in death, the other brought in life.
That's the point. Paul used what is called a "contrastive parallelism", which started in verse 12, "just as through one man, sin entered the world". The contrastive nature of the parallelism is clear in vs 15, "But the gift is not like the trespass. What Christ “gives” contrasts with what Adam did, his “trespass”... and in vs 16, "
"The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned" (the same principle, expanded)
But how exactly is Adam the "figure" of Him to come?
I think I covered that thoroughly enough in post# 1154, but in addition to this chapter, 1 Cor 15 confirms that Adam is a type of Christ:

“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.” (1 Corinthians 15:20–22)

“So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual
is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven.” (1 Corinthians 15:45–47)​

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Two last quick comments about this verse.
First, the translated word order is extremely clear that Adam is the type. "of Adam's transgression who is the figure of Him who was to come.
Second, in Greek, word order is irrelevant. Each word is conjugated in such a way that any greek reader or translator can easily see who the subjects are of which verbs they are looking at, regardless of word order. For example, in Rom 5:14, "Adam" is written in the predicate nominative tense, meaning Adam is the predicate of a clause and which is related to the subject of the same clause in a qualitative sense. In other words, "Adam" is the subject of the verb "is a type of Him".

The fact that Adam foreshadows Jesus is clear, Biblically, theologically, and linguistically.
 

ewq1938

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"The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned" (the same principle, expanded)

I think I covered that thoroughly enough in post# 1154, but in addition to this chapter, 1 Cor 15 confirms that Adam is a type of Christ:
No, he is the opposite of Christ. Moses is the type of Christ.



“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.” (1 Corinthians 15:20–22)

“So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual
is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven.” (1 Corinthians 15:45–47)​

Those are not examples of Adam being a type of Christ. Clearly that is showing he is opposite.


The fact that Adam foreshadows Jesus is clear, Biblically, theologically, and linguistically.
In no sense is any of that correct. I posted scriptures that show it is Moses who was the type or figure of Christ.

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


Moses as well as God are saying the Messiah would be like Moses and then fast forward to the NT and we have Moses mentioned in the same sentence where *someone* had been a figure of Christ in his life.

Act_3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.


"like unto me"

Moses declares that Jesus would be "like unto me" meaning Jesus would be like Moses!

Moses is saying that he is the figure of the Christ to come. It could not be easier to understand.
 

Magenta

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Say what? You are disputing Paul's veracity? That seems to be a very common problem on this thread. Glad it's not my problem.
Paul said we should do as He did, and how many times in all his books (28% of the NT) did he preach eternal conscious torment via hellfire damnation? Did he ever even use the word hell? No, he did not. Paul, who claimed he was caught up into heaven and given the Gospel directly by Jesus, that all men would be judged according to his gospel, that he had declared to people the whole counsel of God, that he kept back nothing profitable from the people he taught, and that he was the apostle to the gentiles... never once used the word hell. Paul uses the Greek word "Hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is translated "grave." (KJV) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? In Galatians 1:8, he says: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. So what does that make you?
 

Diakonos

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I haven't written very much here, but please read all of the responses before you respond to them separately.
Those are not examples of Adam being a type of Christ. Clearly that is showing he is opposite.
"like unto me"
Moses declares that Jesus would be "like unto me" meaning Jesus would be like Moses!
Adam is a contrastive parallel figure, not a comparative parallel figure. You haven't retained my comment (below)
The contrastive nature of the parallelism is clear in vs 15, "But the gift is not like the trespass. What Christ “gives” contrasts with what Adam did, his “trespass”... and in vs 16, "
"The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned" (the same principle, expand
See? The foreshadowing is contrastive in nature, not comparative. The foreshadowing is contrastive throughout the entire chapter:
Moses as well as God are saying the Messiah would be like Moses and then fast forward to the NT and we have Moses mentioned in the same sentence where *someone* had been a figure of Christ in his life.
You still haven't been able to tell me the meaning of "death reigned from Adam until Moses". If you learn what that means, then you'll understand why Moses is mentioned.
In no sense is any of that correct.
Which part isn't correct?...the English syntax, or the Greek parsing?
 

cv5

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Paul said we should do as He did, and how many times in all his books (28% of the NT) did he preach eternal conscious torment via hellfire damnation? Did he ever even use the word hell? No, he did not. Paul, who claimed he was caught up into heaven and given the Gospel directly by Jesus, that all men would be judged according to his gospel, that he had declared to people the whole counsel of God, that he kept back nothing profitable from the people he taught, and that he was the apostle to the gentiles... never once used the word hell. Paul uses the Greek word "Hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is translated "grave." (KJV) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? In Galatians 1:8, he says: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. So what does that make you?
Here...

"But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to HELL! As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned to HELL!" (Galatians 1:8-9 NET).

More....MUCH more tomorrow.
 

ewq1938

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Adam is a contrastive parallel figure, not a comparative parallel figure.
I agree but the figure of Christ to come is a comparative parallel figure which means it is Moses.



You still haven't been able to tell me the meaning of "death reigned from Adam until Moses". If you learn what that means, then you'll understand why Moses is mentioned.
I explained that in my original three part posting.


Which part isn't correct?...the English syntax, or the Greek parsing?
The person.
 

cv5

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Paul said we should do as He did, and how many times in all his books (28% of the NT) did he preach eternal conscious torment via hellfire damnation? Did he ever even use the word hell? No, he did not. Paul, who claimed he was caught up into heaven and given the Gospel directly by Jesus, that all men would be judged according to his gospel, that he had declared to people the whole counsel of God, that he kept back nothing profitable from the people he taught, and that he was the apostle to the gentiles... never once used the word hell. Paul uses the Greek word "Hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is translated "grave." (KJV) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? In Galatians 1:8, he says: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. So what does that make you?
Paul often used words indicating destruction (ἀπόλλυμι, ὄλεθρος, ἀπώλεια) as synonyms for Gehenna:

Some examples:

NET Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish (ἀπόλλυμι) apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

NET 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing (ἀπόλλυμι), but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

NET 1 Thessalonians 5:3 Now when they are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction (ὄλεθρος) comes on them, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will surely not escape.

NET 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will undergo the penalty of eternal destruction (ὄλεθρος), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength.

NET 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with every kind of evil deception directed against those who are perishing (ἀπόλλυμι), because they found no place in their hearts for the truth so as to be saved.

NET 1 Timothy 6:9 Those who long to be rich, however, stumble into temptation and a trap and many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin (ἀπόλλυμι) and destruction (ἀπώλεια).

Why would Paul choose to use words like this, instead of the word Gehenna itself? One possible reason would be that Paul was speaking to a non-Jewish audience, who would not be as familiar with the history of the Valley of Hinnom, from which the term Gehenna derived. His choice to use words indicating destruction conveyed the concept of terminal destruction in hell that Jesus made clear in Matthew 10:28 when he described God's purpose for Gehenna.

Paul also used death/dying as a synonym for Gehenna in his writings. He spoke of the fate of the lost as death, and the fate of the saved as eternal (permanent) life.

Finally, Paul uses the term ἀνάθεμα (accursed) with reference to Gehenna in two other places as well as Galatians 1:8, 9.

NET Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed – cut off from Christ – for the sake of my people, my fellow countrymen,

NET 1 Corinthians 16:22 Let anyone who has no love for the Lord be accursed. Our Lord, come!
 

cv5

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Paul said we should do as He did, and how many times in all his books (28% of the NT) did he preach eternal conscious torment via hellfire damnation? Did he ever even use the word hell? No, he did not. Paul, who claimed he was caught up into heaven and given the Gospel directly by Jesus, that all men would be judged according to his gospel, that he had declared to people the whole counsel of God, that he kept back nothing profitable from the people he taught, and that he was the apostle to the gentiles... never once used the word hell. Paul uses the Greek word "Hades" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is translated "grave." (KJV) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? In Galatians 1:8, he says: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. So what does that make you?
How and why you choose to IGNORE the clear unmistakable intentional use of Ghenna by our Lord simply beggars the imagination. There is NO excuse for such folly.
 

Magenta

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How and why you choose to IGNORE the clear unmistakable intentional use of Ghenna by our Lord simply beggars the imagination. There is NO excuse for such folly.
It seems you think Jesus would idly warn us about the destruction of body and soul, and that we should instead believe that the soul is immortal, even though that is not taught in the Bible. In fact Scripture directly and articulately says that God alone is immortal. I cannot find the word Ghenna in any Bible. According to you, God must have made a mistake when He repeatedly said the wages of sin is death.

From the beginning of the Bible, the Scriptures declare repeatedly that death is the penalty for sin.
The first time, in Genesis 2:17, God said to Adam as a consequence of his disobedience:
"Thou shalt surely DIE."
There was no threatened eternal torment, but on the contrary Adam was told in Genesis 3:19 that
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou RETURN UNTO THE GROUND:
for out of it wast thou taken: for DUST THOU ART AND UNTO DUST SHALT THOU RETURN."

Paul says in Romans 6:23, commenting upon the Adamic sentence:
"The wages of sin is death."

And in Romans 5:17

"By one man’s offence death reigned."
Also Romans 6:21
"The end of those things (the works of the flesh) is death."
Not eternal living torment, but DEATH.
James affirms this in James 1:15~

"Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH"
The penalty of death and destruction is both just and merciful;
the penalty of eternal torture is neither just nor merciful.
Jesus said, "Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat.
"And narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it."

Here again we note that in the Bible it is not eternal torment that is
threatened but destruction, which is something very different.
In Matthew 25:46, Jesus says the wicked "go into everlasting punishment," and what this everlasting punishment consists of is explained by Paul in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, where he says that when Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, the wicked shall be "punished with everlasting destruction." Paul tells us in Hebrews 10:27 what this everlasting punishment is:
"Judgment and fiery indignation shall devour the adversary."

Quite unlike the burning bush which was NOT devoured by the flames which engulfed it.
Jesus says in Matthew 10:28 that God is able to~
"DESTROY both soul and body in Gehenna."

Do you think Jesus gives idle warnings, that we should feat God for something He will never do?
Philippians 3:19, speaking of the unsaved~

"Their end is destruction."
2 Peter 2:12, speaking of the unsaved~
"These, as natural brute beasts . . . shall utterly perish in their own corruption."
Psalm 37:20
"The wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the
fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Malachi 4:1
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."
Psalm 145:20
"The Lord preserveth all them that love Him, but all the wicked will He destroy."

2 Peter 3:7

And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire,
being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.


Some translations use the word perdition, which means destruction, eternal ruin.

Not eternal torture at death, but complete burning destruction
in the day of judgment is the consistent Scriptural picture.



Apollumi
 

TMS

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Here...

"But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to HELL! As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned to HELL!" (Galatians 1:8-9 NET).

More....MUCH more tomorrow.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed (331).

331 = anathema = accursed, ex-communicated, banned.

This in no way proves a place that burns people forever. .
 

TMS

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"Eternal destruction"
.......... can mean complete destruction that lasts forever. The life, body and soul of the evil is destroyed forever.
............or it can mean destruction that is eternally happening and never complete, life, soul and body are never destroyed because it takes eternity to complete.

i know which God i believe in. The God that is Just and merciful, the God that completes things properly.
The only reminder of sin i will need is the prints in Jesus's hands.