What Changed?
- Thread starter BillyBob
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You aren't understanding what I said. You are taking the verse as an absolute statement-absolutely everyone who hasn't believed in Jesus is worthy of death. I don't, thinking it just wasn't worth noting an exception that wouldn't apply to anyone reading, and which would have cluttered and obscured the point - everyone old enough to have made a decision on almost anything at any level is worthy of death apart from believing in Jesus. Therefore the issue of belief in Jesus doesn't necessarily have to apply to the babies in the way you suggest.
And actually your follow up question brings up a good point. There are babies that come into this world saved. John the Baptist would be one example. Holy Spirit can only be placed into a clean vessel yet John was given Holy Spirit in the womb. Holy Spirit is eternal life and therefore salvation. And interestingly, John did recognized Jesus from the womb.
John the Baptist wasn't even a one-time special. I know personally of babies God has done this with, though it has to be done within a very few months of birth and by God's designation. I have even watched some of them grow and seen the fruit of this.
And actually your follow up question brings up a good point. There are babies that come into this world saved. John the Baptist would be one example. Holy Spirit can only be placed into a clean vessel yet John was given Holy Spirit in the womb. Holy Spirit is eternal life and therefore salvation. And interestingly, John did recognized Jesus from the womb.
John the Baptist wasn't even a one-time special. I know personally of babies God has done this with, though it has to be done within a very few months of birth and by God's designation. I have even watched some of them grow and seen the fruit of this.
Death is when something no longer can do what it is supposed to do when alive/live. It is not responsive to that which it used to be responsive. A person is dead to the world when they are asleep and no longer responsive to the world. A nerve is dead when it is no longer responsive to the needle inserted into the nerve. A body is dead when it no longer responds to external stimuli, A radio goes dead when it stops responding to the broadcasted radio waves. There is not necessarily separation between the dead thing and the external stimuli. The radio waves are touching the radio receiver, the needle is touching the nerve, the sleeping body is integrally connected to the world.
So, we could perhaps translate Gen 3:3-5 as, "... in the day you eat of it, to die you will die
(or, in the day you eat of it, to become unresponsive you will be becoming unresponsive.)
God did not actually separate from man when man sinned. God is not so fragile that He will become defiled through contact with sin and sinners. Jesus did not become unclean when He touched the unclean; but the unclean who experienced His touch became cleansed. What happened with man sinning was that man became less responsive to the physical creation and to God, and this degradation of responsiveness would lead to complete unresponsiveness toward the physical creation in physical death, and the complete unresponsiveness toward God of a completely calloused heart that denies the reality of God's spiritual realm.
But to describe this as separation, I think, is misleading, because even the unresponsive live and move and have their being in God, which does not sound like separation to me. Our sins separate us from God. They do not separate God from us. God is bigger than that. God is incorruptible no matter how much sin He is in contact with as the sustainer of the universe.
The unresponsiveness of "death" is sometimes a result of separation, but not necessarily so.
So, we could perhaps translate Gen 3:3-5 as, "... in the day you eat of it, to die you will die
(or, in the day you eat of it, to become unresponsive you will be becoming unresponsive.)
God did not actually separate from man when man sinned. God is not so fragile that He will become defiled through contact with sin and sinners. Jesus did not become unclean when He touched the unclean; but the unclean who experienced His touch became cleansed. What happened with man sinning was that man became less responsive to the physical creation and to God, and this degradation of responsiveness would lead to complete unresponsiveness toward the physical creation in physical death, and the complete unresponsiveness toward God of a completely calloused heart that denies the reality of God's spiritual realm.
But to describe this as separation, I think, is misleading, because even the unresponsive live and move and have their being in God, which does not sound like separation to me. Our sins separate us from God. They do not separate God from us. God is bigger than that. God is incorruptible no matter how much sin He is in contact with as the sustainer of the universe.
The unresponsiveness of "death" is sometimes a result of separation, but not necessarily so.
THis is an edited version of my previous post. The time expired and I could not complete the edits to that previous post.
Death is when something no longer can do what it is supposed to do when alive/live. It is not responsive to that which it used to be responsive. A person is dead to the world when they are asleep and no longer responsive to the world. A nerve is dead when it is no longer responsive to the needle inserted into the nerve. A body is dead when it no longer responds to external stimuli, A radio goes dead when it stops responding to the broadcasted radio waves. There is not necessarily separation between the dead thing and the external stimuli. The radio waves are touching the radio receiver, the needle is touching the nerve, the sleeping body is integrally connected to the world.
So, we could perhaps translate Gen 3:3-5 as, "... in the day you eat of it, to die you will die
(or, in the day you eat of it, to become unresponsive you will be becoming unresponsive.)
God did not actually separate from man when man sinned. God is not so fragile that He will become defiled through contact with sin and sinners. Jesus did not become unclean when He touched the unclean; but the unclean who experienced His touch became cleansed. What happened with man sinning was that man became less responsive to the physical creation and to God, and this degradation of responsiveness would lead to complete unresponsiveness toward the physical creation in physical death, and the complete unresponsiveness toward God of a completely calloused heart that denies the reality of God's spiritual realm.
But to describe this as separation, I think, is misleading, because even the unresponsive live and move and have their being in God, which does not sound like separation to me. Our sins separate us from God. Because of the guilt and shame and/or pride that results from our sin, we feel separated from God. but our sins do not separate God from us. God is bigger than that. God is incorruptible no matter how much sin He is in contact with as the sustainer of the universe.
The unresponsiveness of "death" is sometimes a result of separation, but not necessarily so.
Death is when something no longer can do what it is supposed to do when alive/live. It is not responsive to that which it used to be responsive. A person is dead to the world when they are asleep and no longer responsive to the world. A nerve is dead when it is no longer responsive to the needle inserted into the nerve. A body is dead when it no longer responds to external stimuli, A radio goes dead when it stops responding to the broadcasted radio waves. There is not necessarily separation between the dead thing and the external stimuli. The radio waves are touching the radio receiver, the needle is touching the nerve, the sleeping body is integrally connected to the world.
So, we could perhaps translate Gen 3:3-5 as, "... in the day you eat of it, to die you will die
(or, in the day you eat of it, to become unresponsive you will be becoming unresponsive.)
God did not actually separate from man when man sinned. God is not so fragile that He will become defiled through contact with sin and sinners. Jesus did not become unclean when He touched the unclean; but the unclean who experienced His touch became cleansed. What happened with man sinning was that man became less responsive to the physical creation and to God, and this degradation of responsiveness would lead to complete unresponsiveness toward the physical creation in physical death, and the complete unresponsiveness toward God of a completely calloused heart that denies the reality of God's spiritual realm.
But to describe this as separation, I think, is misleading, because even the unresponsive live and move and have their being in God, which does not sound like separation to me. Our sins separate us from God. Because of the guilt and shame and/or pride that results from our sin, we feel separated from God. but our sins do not separate God from us. God is bigger than that. God is incorruptible no matter how much sin He is in contact with as the sustainer of the universe.
The unresponsiveness of "death" is sometimes a result of separation, but not necessarily so.