What Constitutes Scriptures?

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ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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#21
The only authority Catholicism has comes from one source and it isn't Christ: "Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, 'All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.' "—Matthew 4:8-9
 
J

joecoten

Guest
#23
Apple-core stew...it must be Sunday! (quote from the WEF future)
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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#24
How can you say that the apostle's writings were recognized as authorative in the early going? There were no printing presses, very few people could read or write, so what are your references as to their being recognized as authoritative? Also, who was it you say recognized them as authorative? And by what authority could these have deemed them as authorative?

Who were the 'Early believers' who quoted extensively from the New Testament books as early as the 2d century, that would be just after the year 100AD? Thanks.
Well, Peter certainly accepted Paul's epistles as being authoritative scripture, and they were written in the 1st century.

II Peter chapter 3

[14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Although there were no printing presses in those days, there were scribes.
 

ResidentAlien

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#25
I think if a new epistle of Peter, or of Paul, or of any of the apostles was discovered, and it could be proven authentic beyond all doubt, it should be included in the canon. In that sense I don't believe the canon is set in stone; but the bar for adding to it should be very high.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#26
Well, Peter certainly accepted Paul's epistles as being authoritative scripture, and they were written in the 1st century.
Paul also accepted Luke's writing as Scripture...

Surely if we can define Scripture as the revelation of God's plan for humanity,
which is what it is, it makes me wonder if they knew they were writing Scripture
at the time, especially in regards to the gospel writers. Paul may be surprised,
after all, to discover how much his letters came to be accepted as such ;):unsure::giggle:
 

Aerials1978

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Dec 10, 2019
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#27
The Muratorian fragment is interesting. Dated from 7th or 8th centuries and written in Latin, there is evidence that the original was in Greek was written around the late 2nd century. All of the core scriptures are included, so we do know that early Christian’s has them.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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#28
Paul also accepted Luke's writing as Scripture...
Yes, I know.

For any who might not know what we're referring to, we're referring to this:

I Timothy chapter 5

[17] Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
[18] For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Here, Paul cited two scriptures. The first is found in Deuteronomy 25:4, and the second is an exact quote of a portion of Luke 10:7 in the underlying Greek.

"And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house." (Luke 10:7)

It is generally believed that Paul wrote his first epistle to Timothy somewhere around 65 A.D., so this means that the gospel of Luke would have already been in circulation at that time. Luke was a travelling companion of Paul, but don't let anybody deceive you into believing that Paul merely received this via word of mouth from Luke. No, Paul used the word "scripture", which is "graphē" in the underlying Greek, and this word means "a writing or a thing written".

Paul used these same introductory words of "for the scripture saith" in Romans 9:17 in relation to what had been written by Moses in the book of Exodus, and again in Romans 10:11 in relation to what had been written by the prophet Joel in the book of Joel.

Surely if we can define Scripture as the revelation of God's plan for humanity,
which is what it is, it makes me wonder if they knew they were writing Scripture
at the time, especially in regards to the gospel writers. Paul may be surprised,
after all, to discover how much his letters came to be accepted as such ;):unsure::giggle:
Well, Luke, for example, certainly seemed to know exactly what he was doing when he penned his gospel.

We read:

Luke chapter 1

[1] Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
[2] Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
[3] It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
[4] That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

There's a difference of opinion in relation to whom Luke was actually writing. Some believe that Luke was writing to an individual named Theophilus. Personally, I disagree. The name Theophilus literally means "lover of God", and I believe that Luke had a general audience in mind while writing which consisted of all lovers of God. In either case, we need to notice that Luke said that "MANY have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word".

Well, who are these "many" who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word?

It seems to me that he was talking about certain apostles whose writings preceded his own, so it's quite possible/probable that Matthew's gospel, at least, preceded Luke's gospel. It's also generally believed that Mark got his gospel from Peter, so Mark's gospel may have preceded Luke's gospel as well.

We do have at least one indication from Paul's epistles that either Matthew's or Mark's gospels (or both) were already in circulation during his day as well.

I'm referring to the following:

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." (I Corinthians 13:2)

How did Paul know about faith that could remove mountains?

Did he learn of the same by reading either Matthew's or Mark's (or both) gospel accounts?

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. " (Matthew 21:21)

"For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith." (Mark 11:23)

It's quite possible that he did.

Here's something else which indicates early authorship of the gospels:

"The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach," (Acts 1:1)

Luke authored the book of Acts, and when he spoke of "the former treatise", he was referring to the gospel of Luke.

Well, the book of Acts follows the exploits of Paul, and it ends with Paul yet being alive. Although we don't know the exact date of Paul's death, it's generally believed that he died somewhere between the years of 65 A.D. and 68 A.D. at the latest. Luke recorded James' death in the book of Acts, so it would be very odd for him not to record Paul's death if Paul was indeed dead at the time of his writing. Furthermore, the temple in Jerusalem is still standing in the book of Acts, and that was destroyed in 70 A.D., so it's basically certain that the book of Acts was written sometime before 70 A.D. Again, seeing how Luke's gospel PRECEDED his writing of the book of Acts in that it was his "former treatise" (Acts 1:1), we know that his gospel was written even earlier than this.

Anyhow, just some internal witnesses from the Bible in relation not only to their writings being counted as scripture early on, but also regarding the timeframes surrounding said writings.
 

SomeDisciple

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Jul 4, 2021
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#29
There are few extra-canonical writings that I would consider "scripture".

Technically the DSS variant of Isaiah isn't "canon," but it's the one quoted by Jesus in the Gospel when he says 'today this prophecy is fulfilled in your ears"... so, I'm guessing the words of the DSS Variant are somehow better: more complete, perhaps.

Some of "the gospel of the nazarenes" fragments might be legit; I feel led to pray about this, as well as to trace the history of the Jerusalem church after 70AD. (The gospel of the Nazarenes is supposedly an early hebrew/aramaic variation of Matthew, written by Matthew before it was circulated in Greek)

I'd be more than happy if there was more scripture, but at the same time- I think we have more than enough on out plates with the Bible already.

The only "canon" verses I put a question mark next to is the Story of Jesus and the woman taken in adultry. It's supposedly challenged by some scholars to be a late addition. I don't reject the "moral of the story" or anything- but I have a conviction that the question of what Jesus wrote on the ground is very important and that the commentaries of scholars and translators on this matter are completely unacceptable.
 

JohnDB

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Jan 16, 2021
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#30
To me,
Every bit of scripture, even the "skip over begats",
Every bit is for various lessons and advice for how to have an abundant life.
 

JohnDB

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Jan 16, 2021
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#31
There are few extra-canonical writings that I would consider "scripture".

Technically the DSS variant of Isaiah isn't "canon," but it's the one quoted by Jesus in the Gospel when he says 'today this prophecy is fulfilled in your ears"... so, I'm guessing the words of the DSS Variant are somehow better: more complete, perhaps.

Some of "the gospel of the nazarenes" fragments might be legit; I feel led to pray about this, as well as to trace the history of the Jerusalem church after 70AD. (The gospel of the Nazarenes is supposedly an early hebrew/aramaic variation of Matthew, written by Matthew before it was circulated in Greek)

I'd be more than happy if there was more scripture, but at the same time- I think we have more than enough on out plates with the Bible already.

The only "canon" verses I put a question mark next to is the Story of Jesus and the woman taken in adultry. It's supposedly challenged by some scholars to be a late addition. I don't reject the "moral of the story" or anything- but I have a conviction that the question of what Jesus wrote on the ground is very important and that the commentaries of scholars and translators on this matter are completely unacceptable.
The section in John 8 is often referred to as Peter's but-in....

Because they think that the writing style is Mark's...but that it somehow got accidentally inserted into John when a copyist was dealing with stacks of loose sheets of paper...and tradition has carried it forward all these years.

But we don't know....it's been too many years and we aren't exactly sure where in Mark it belongs or who exactly wrote it. As I'm sure you will remember that Peter's stories Mark formed into his Gospel Account.
 

JohnDB

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#32
Laugh away, my friend. Laugh away. But it is a serious question, which those who reject the Apostolic Church face mighty difficulties in answering. The answer of traditional Christians - both Catholics and Orthodox - is very simple. Christ's Church infallibly decided this.

"What Church? Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus’ flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).

By virtue of this divinely-appointed authority, the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture (what books belong in the Bible) at the end of the fourth century. We therefore believe in the Scriptures on the authority of the Catholic Church. After all, nothing in Scripture tells us what Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17). It is through the teaching authority and Apostolic Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2) of this Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16,26; 16:13), that we know of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and the manifold wisdom of God. (cf. Ephesians 3:10)."

Taken from: https://www.scripturecatholic.com/catholic-faith/
Now see....
The Catholic Bible does not have 66 books in it. And the Bible has grown and shrunk over the millennium.

Book of prayers
Prayer of Menassas
Wisdom books
Macabees 1
Macabees 2
Bel and the Dragon.
And many others were once included in with the scriptures...but often today they are not.

Then there's pseudopigrapha. This includes such things as The Book of Enoch, Gospel of Thomas and Etc....
The Book of Enoch was even quoted by Jesus in several places. But to this day nobody considers it scripture. (Except for what Jesus said of course)

Then we have the book of Jude....which includes many Talmud references.

So...why were these books removed?
What caused them to make this choice?

There's obviously a reason. It can't be based solely on feelings. There must be a dividing line between scripture and other old writings....what is that line and why?

We worship God in Spirit and Truth. The Apocrypha was removed from scripture...for a reason. The line of reasoning had to be based on something. Good solid reasoning....what was it?
 

Jesusfollower

Active member
Oct 21, 2021
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#33
Since everyone seems to be questioning the well traveled paths lately....

Why do you believe that certain books are Holy and some are not?

Age?
Authorship?
Content?

We have the 66 books as Cannon. Why?

Why do you think other books were excluded?
Your immortal Soul is dependent upon the theology you have isn't it?

Ugaritic tablets have a very similar story as Genesis but nobody quotes them....why?

Nobody reads the "The Assumption of Moses"....
Very interesting post John, I wonded myself and I use my "gut" feeling to know which scriptures are valid or not I do not rely on the established canon as I see some book in the bible might not belong there. The books that contradicts the word of Christ or the contradict the first five books of the OT, I take lightly or ignore. There are also many interesting apocrypha books and i am reading a few of them at this time. it's weird to explain but i know the truth when i read the words of these books, there is a wisdom in them that is beyond human ethics and are so truthful and loving. some other books i see the flaws readily and I am not easily deceived. many years ago, I thought that all the 66 were valid, i know better now.

As for mentioning the books i reject, it would create division here and I do not want this, with the tools that we have today everypone can research and see for themselves which books are really inspired by the holy spirit of GOD!

Blessings,

JF
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#34
Now see....
The Catholic Bible does not have 66 books in it. And the Bible has grown and shrunk over the millennium.

Book of prayers
Prayer of Menassas
Wisdom books
Macabees 1
Macabees 2
Bel and the Dragon.
And many others were once included in with the scriptures...but often today they are not.

Then there's pseudopigrapha. This includes such things as The Book of Enoch, Gospel of Thomas and Etc....
The Book of Enoch was even quoted by Jesus in several places. But to this day nobody considers it scripture. (Except for what Jesus said of course)

Then we have the book of Jude....which includes many Talmud references.

So...why were these books removed?
What caused them to make this choice?

There's obviously a reason. It can't be based solely on feelings. There must be a dividing line between scripture and other old writings....what is that line and why?

We worship God in Spirit and Truth. The Apocrypha was removed from scripture...for a reason. The line of reasoning had to be based on something. Good solid reasoning....what was it?
If we added all that you siad here then the bible would not fit in the designated box Amazon had approved for free shipping....just guessing
 

Deuteronomy

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Jun 11, 2018
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#35
We have the 66 books as Canon. Why?
Why do you think other books were excluded?

Your immortal Soul is dependent upon the theology you have isn't it?
Hello John, et al, there is a recent (2018), wonderfully made movie/documentary that looks into this topic (and a Bible study addition to the movie, by the same group of theologians, pastors, historians and linguists) if you'd care to take a much deeper look into one or more of the topics that are discussed.

The Official Trailer
.

The God Who Speaks (afa.net) (The entire movie, free to stream and watch here)
.

God bless you!

~Deut
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#36
Hello again, I forgot to point out that the free streaming movie/documentary is available (for a limited time at the link in my last post above) from the very folks who created, produced and directed it. You will need to register with them (American Family Association), just FYI, but the registration is free, quick and easy :)

Also, here is a link to the cast/contributors in the movie: The God Who Speaks | Contributors

~Deut
p.s. - sorry about the typo or two in my last post. By the time that I noticed them it was too late to do anything about them :confused:
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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#37
To me...
It's only scripture if it has a purpose and theology that can be formed by it.

All scriptures were written with several purposes...not just to relate history. (Which some ascribe to Genesis and Exodus)

These theologies must not contradict what is known about God and his Attributes of Sovereignty, Omniscience, Immutability, Holiness, Omnipotence and etc.

They also must be true. Sure, they may contain paradoxes (and there are some very wonderful lessons to be learned from those) But they cannot contain errors of historical content. (Maccabes do contain historical errors but are mostly true)

So where we see Jesus quoting such known religious fiction books as the Book of Enoch (written in 100 BC and not by Enoch himself) the portions Jesus mentions are scripture because He quoted them. Not for any other reason.

And Jesus quoted them because they were well known works of fiction. The references illustrating a point he was making so He could be understood clearly. If Jesus quoted a character out of Star Wars nobody would consider that movie as scripture...same thing with a Dan Brown novel...it's not scripture. Never intended to be scripture....but today we read these things because they assist in understanding the mindset of people and the myths that some people believed. It helps clarify the heavy metaphors and references made during the time period.

If I were to claim I had a frog in my throat today...nobody would believe that I had an actual amphibian in there as a malady or medical treatment....because we understand the idiom of speech clearly.

Same thing that these other ancient writings provide for a culture thousands of years ago which is completely foreign to the modern westernized mindset.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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#38
If I were to claim I had a frog in my throat today...nobody would believe that I had an actual amphibian in there as a malady or medical treatment....because we understand the idiom of speech clearly.
HEY!!!

What's wrong with having a literal frog in one's throat?

I ate three of them that I found in a little watering hole in the woods just this morning.

I mean, a bear's got to eat to live, right?!?

Sorry, gotta run...

(He spots a slow-moving squirrel that would make a great dessert, and takes off running in its direction)
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#39
Mar 4, 2020
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#40
Yes, I know.

For any who might not know what we're referring to, we're referring to this:

I Timothy chapter 5

[17] Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
[18] For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Here, Paul cited two scriptures. The first is found in Deuteronomy 25:4, and the second is an exact quote of a portion of Luke 10:7 in the underlying Greek.

"And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house." (Luke 10:7)
This isn’t meant to be argumentative or anything, just sharing my perspective here.

Those New Testament passages are based on Old Testament scriptures.

Leviticus 19:13
13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

Deuteronomy 24:15
15 At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the Lord, and it be sin unto thee.

It is generally believed that Paul wrote his first epistle to Timothy somewhere around 65 A.D., so this means that the gospel of Luke would have already been in circulation at that time. Luke was a travelling companion of Paul, but don't let anybody deceive you into believing that Paul merely received this via word of mouth from Luke. No, Paul used the word "scripture", which is "graphē" in the underlying Greek, and this word means "a writing or a thing written".

Paul used these same introductory words of "for the scripture saith" in Romans 9:17 in relation to what had been written by Moses in the book of Exodus, and again in Romans 10:11 in relation to what had been written by the prophet Joel in the book of Joel.

Well, Luke, for example, certainly seemed to know exactly what he was doing when he penned his gospel.

We read:

Luke chapter 1

[1] Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
[2] Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
[3] It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
[4] That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

There's a difference of opinion in relation to whom Luke was actually writing. Some believe that Luke was writing to an individual named Theophilus. Personally, I disagree. The name Theophilus literally means "lover of God", and I believe that Luke had a general audience in mind while writing which consisted of all lovers of God. In either case, we need to notice that Luke said that "MANY have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word".

Well, who are these "many" who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word?

It seems to me that he was talking about certain apostles whose writings preceded his own, so it's quite possible/probable that Matthew's gospel, at least, preceded Luke's gospel. It's also generally believed that Mark got his gospel from Peter, so Mark's gospel may have preceded Luke's gospel as well.
Totally agreed and that’s an interesting commentary!

We do have at least one indication from Paul's epistles that either Matthew's or Mark's gospels (or both) were already in circulation during his day as well.

I'm referring to the following:

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." (I Corinthians 13:2)

How did Paul know about faith that could remove mountains?

Did he learn of the same by reading either Matthew's or Mark's (or both) gospel accounts?

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. " (Matthew 21:21)

"For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith." (Mark 11:23)

It's quite possible that he did.
That’s true you’re possibly correct about that, but mountain-moving isn’t exactly a brand new idea unique to the New Testament. There’s some evidence in the Old Testament about mountain-moving.

Isaiah 40:4
4Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Isaiah 54:10
10For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

And there’s several more.


Here's something else which indicates early authorship of the gospels:

"The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach," (Acts 1:1)

Luke authored the book of Acts, and when he spoke of "the former treatise", he was referring to the gospel of Luke.

Well, the book of Acts follows the exploits of Paul, and it ends with Paul yet being alive. Although we don't know the exact date of Paul's death, it's generally believed that he died somewhere between the years of 65 A.D. and 68 A.D. at the latest. Luke recorded James' death in the book of Acts, so it would be very odd for him not to record Paul's death if Paul was indeed dead at the time of his writing. Furthermore, the temple in Jerusalem is still standing in the book of Acts, and that was destroyed in 70 A.D., so it's basically certain that the book of Acts was written sometime before 70 A.D. Again, seeing how Luke's gospel PRECEDED his writing of the book of Acts in that it was his "former treatise" (Acts 1:1), we know that his gospel was written even earlier than this.

Anyhow, just some internal witnesses from the Bible in relation not only to their writings being counted as scripture early on, but also regarding the timeframes surrounding said writings.
Agreed for sure.

It’s my perspective that the New Testament books, letters, epistles, etc were not considered scripture at the time they were written. They weren’t tried and stood the test of time like the Law and Prophets had. It would have basically been like someone writing a random book today and telling you to believe the message in it to be saved. It would be hilarious or maybe even concerning.

The people who were preached to the message of Jesus, the gospel, if they weren’t eyewitnesses, required validation from the Old Testament scriptures or miracles to confirm what was being said is true.