What did Jesus mean?

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
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#61
Ephesians 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Being born of water is Gods Work. Being born of Spirit is Gods Work.

If you try to make either or both mens work you misunderstand, just like Nicodemus.


If being born of water means men baptising other men in water then you have people working their way to heaven. As nice as you think that thought is, it is incorrect.

Isaiah 42:6-8
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
#62
Come on, you know what I mean. To those who blurt out his name as a cuss word, all this name means is a cuss word, nothing more.
I understand what you’re saying but I see it more as people crying out in frustration. It doesn’t make it right either way.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
4,732
1,033
113
#63
Ephesians 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Being born of water is Gods Work. Being born of Spirit is Gods Work.

If you try to make either or both mens work you misunderstand, just like Nicodemus.


If being born of water means men baptising other men in water then you have people working their way to heaven. As nice as you think that thought is, it is incorrect.

Isaiah 42:6-8
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Consider that Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter. (Matt. 16:18-19) It is important to note Jesus gave Peter keys (plural) not just a single key.

Peter preached the initial gospel message that included the requirements for one's spiritual rebirth on the Day of Pentecost. The requirements included believing in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, repentance, water baptism in Jesus' name and receiving the Holy Ghost. Obedience to these commands unlock the door to the kingdom for all those willing to believe and act upon them. The same requirements are seen in the Samaritan and Gentile experiences. (Acts 8:12-17; 10:43-48) As such, every group of humanity was required to obey these God given commands. (Acts 1:1-2) Paul's exchange with 12 disciples includes the same requirements. (Acts 19:1-6)
 
Feb 24, 2022
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#64
I understand what you’re saying but I see it more as people crying out in frustration. It doesn’t make it right either way.
You really expect them to not take the Lord's name in vain?
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
#65
You really expect them to not take the Lord's name in vain?
I don’t expect anything. Jesus’ Name is misused and abused by some people but that doesn’t make His Name a cuss. I don’t want to argue with you or anyone else. May we simply agree to disagree. Peace be with you, dear friend.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,075
3,965
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mywebsite.us
#66

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,591
2,197
113
#67
Consider that Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter. (Matt. 16:18-19) It is important to note Jesus gave Peter keys (plural) not just a single key.

Peter preached the initial gospel message that included the requirements for one's spiritual rebirth on the Day of Pentecost. The requirements included believing in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, repentance, water baptism in Jesus' name and receiving the Holy Ghost. Obedience to these commands unlock the door to the kingdom for all those willing to believe and act upon them. The same requirements are seen in the Samaritan and Gentile experiences. (Acts 8:12-17; 10:43-48) As such, every group of humanity was required to obey these God given commands. (Acts 1:1-2) Paul's exchange with 12 disciples includes the same requirements. (Acts 19:1-6)
The "you" is plural... meaning the whole group of Apostles listening to Jesus was going to be in receipt of keys.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,591
2,197
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#68
I don’t expect anything. Jesus’ Name is misused and abused by some people but that doesn’t make His Name a cuss. I don’t want to argue with you or anyone else. May we simply agree to disagree. Peace be with you, dear friend.
Poor behavior while claiming to be a follower of Christ is the ultimate misuse of God's name. It's giving God's name and all those who have it as a laughing stock or bad name.

It's worse than what salty language you use.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,552
3,151
113
#70
How do you figure "you" is plural? It looks singular to me; not that I believe the Catholic nonsense about Peter however.

"And I also say to you (S) that you are Peter, and upon this rock I shall build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give you (S) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind (S) on the earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose (S) on the earth will have been loosed in heaven."
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
4,732
1,033
113
#71
The "you" is plural... meaning the whole group of Apostles listening to Jesus was going to be in receipt of keys.
Jesus comment about the keys of the kingdom of heaven was directed to Peter (Matt. 16:19) This just meant that he had the privilege of opening the door of faith to the world first. It was Peter who initially preached the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. (Acts 2, 10, 15:7) Of course, all born again believers afterward present the same keys/gospel message to the lost and dying in the world in hopes they will believe and be obedient to the same message first given by Peter.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
4,732
1,033
113
#72
How do you figure "you" is plural? It looks singular to me; not that I believe the Catholic nonsense about Peter however.

"And I also say to you (S) that you are Peter, and upon this rock I shall build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give you (S) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind (S) on the earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose (S) on the earth will have been loosed in heaven."
I agree with you. I don't believe the Catholic nonsense either. Peter was not the first pope. As noted in another post, Peter was given the honor of presenting the keys of the kingdom/gospel message to the world first.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,075
3,965
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mywebsite.us
#73
How do you figure "you" is plural?
In the KJV:

~ If it starts with a 'T' (i.e. - thee, thou), it is singular.

~ If it starts with a 'Y' (i.e. - ye, you), it is plural.

Interestingly, in the KJV it says:

Matthew 16:

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,591
2,197
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#74
How do you figure "you" is plural? It looks singular to me; not that I believe the Catholic nonsense about Peter however.

"And I also say to you (S) that you are Peter, and upon this rock I shall build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give you (S) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind (S) on the earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose (S) on the earth will have been loosed in heaven."
Because the "you" is neuter in a separate sentence.
Consider the setting. Jesus led his apostles to the outskirts fringe of the spring at Cesarea Phillipi where the Pan temple was. (Base of mount Hermon) He led them for a lesson. Why would Jesus lead all of them there just to honor Peter? As if that was going to be a whole lesson? Jesus had a LOT packed into EVERY lesson.
He had already named Peter as the Apostolic leader.

So the neuter form of "you" (which is plural in this setting) is most obviously Jesus speaking to the entire group of Apostles. The plural "keys" is about access to the treasure and power rooms in heaven. (An endless supply)
 
Feb 22, 2022
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#76
"John 4: 23, 24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. "
Thank you for your reply. How does one worship God in spirit and in truth?
 

birdie

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
505
89
28
#77
Thank you for your reply. How does one worship God in spirit and in truth?
Thanks HillyBilly for your question. The 'true worshippers', meaning those who are truly saved by God for all eternity, worship in Spirit and in Truth. This is not talking about you have to go to a building that people call church and wait until the pastor invites you to a 'worship service'. What it is talking about is a person is born from above by God. It is not something granted to a person because they do something right and therefore earned it. It is an action initiated by God first. God decides he's going to respond to a person's need. A person is fallen from relationship with God, separated from him and without hope and without God in this world. God has a way to restore that person back to relationship with him and back to hope in eternal life with God forever and ever. Because God cares for that person. God opens the person's spiritual eyes and spiritual ears to hear the good news that Jesus died in their place and then rose again to be their eternal advocate, interceding on their behalf before a perfect God. As soon as a person is given the spirit by God to believe in him for salvation, they are already then in right relationship with God. The spirit of God has come to them as a gift from God above and given them belief. That belief in Christ is a true thing. The word of God, which is true, and is truth, testifies on their behalf because God has given them belief.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
4,732
1,033
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#78
Because the "you" is neuter in a separate sentence.
Consider the setting. Jesus led his apostles to the outskirts fringe of the spring at Cesarea Phillipi where the Pan temple was. (Base of mount Hermon) He led them for a lesson. Why would Jesus lead all of them there just to honor Peter? As if that was going to be a whole lesson? Jesus had a LOT packed into EVERY lesson.
He had already named Peter as the Apostolic leader.

So the neuter form of "you" (which is plural in this setting) is most obviously Jesus speaking to the entire group of Apostles. The plural "keys" is about access to the treasure and power rooms in heaven. (An endless supply)
All of the apostles are present; however, Jesus is speaking directly to Peter in verses 16-19:

"He (Jesus) saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but 18 my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matt 16:15-19
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,552
3,151
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#80
~ If it starts with a 'T' (i.e. - thee, thou), it is singular.

~ If it starts with a 'Y' (i.e. - ye, you), it is plural.
What do you mean? This isn't very clear to me.