What did Jesus mean?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Feb 22, 2022
20
7
3
#81
Thanks HillyBilly for your question. The 'true worshippers', meaning those who are truly saved by God for all eternity, worship in Spirit and in Truth. This is not talking about you have to go to a building that people call church and wait until the pastor invites you to a 'worship service'. What it is talking about is a person is born from above by God. It is not something granted to a person because they do something right and therefore earned it. It is an action initiated by God first. God decides he's going to respond to a person's need. A person is fallen from relationship with God, separated from him and without hope and without God in this world. God has a way to restore that person back to relationship with him and back to hope in eternal life with God forever and ever. Because God cares for that person. God opens the person's spiritual eyes and spiritual ears to hear the good news that Jesus died in their place and then rose again to be their eternal advocate, interceding on their behalf before a perfect God. As soon as a person is given the spirit by God to believe in him for salvation, they are already then in right relationship with God. The spirit of God has come to them as a gift from God above and given them belief. That belief in Christ is a true thing. The word of God, which is true, and is truth, testifies on their behalf because God has given them belief.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
Since God is a spirit how would one worship Him in the spirit? Regular worship would not suffice, if it did He wouldn't have said one must worship Him in spirit. This separates these people as true worshipers who worship God in the spirit from the ones who would worship God through the flesh.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
6,233
2,527
113
#82
What do you mean by this? Could you please explain?
Because of the construction of the early Latin that John wrote in. The "you" is plural because it is neuter. (It's Latin/Koine Greek grammar)
And because Jesus is seated to teach a lesson to ALL the Apostles.
Peter's position was set as leader after the "sending of the 12" story as told by Mark. (Peter said it; Mark wrote it)

So this lesson is not just about how grand Peter is...it's a lesson about the manner in which to use the things that the keys unlock... which is a much more valuable and necessary lesson for the group of Apostles which they needed to understand. (You don't just give out an atomic bomb without a set of instructions on how to use it)
The "you" could be singular IF this was a lesson about how wonderful Peter was. But Jesus never gave those sorts of Lessons while outside the orgy temples to the group of Apostles.

Those keys are available to us today if you understand the lesson Jesus was teaching. (Which nobody seems to want to understand anymore)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#84
The context makes it very clear. Born of water = born of flesh (when your mommies water broke). The second birth is when you are born of the Holy Spirit (when you yield to Jesus at the moment of Salvation).

John
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Many scriptures shed light on what Jesus meant by water and Spirit. All detailed conversions involved water and Spirit. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) By God's design being born naturally involves coming forth out of water and taking in the breath of life. A parallel is clearly seen. Being born AGAIN requires both water and receiving the Spirit.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#85
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:4-6 (KJV)

I think "born of water" means physical birth (vs 4) and
"born of the spirit" means spiritual birth (vs 6).
The Word will always confirm itself. See Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16 they all include water and Spirit.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#86
'born' and 'baptized' are two different things, folks...

"Don't mix 'em up!"

:)
By God's design, being born naturally involves coming out of water. The bible says Spiritual truths can be understood by the things God made so man is without an excuse. (Rom 1:20) Being reborn Spiritually involves water baptism.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#87
Yeah ..

Born of water.. at birth..

It means this because that is what Nicodemus was referring to.
So Jesus was adding to Nicodemus' saying about not being able to go back to his mother's womb.

Jesus was adding being born of the Spirit.

Not a reference to water baptism.

Water baptism is a response to having already been saved. The answer of a good conscience toward God.

I'm amazed that water baptism being attached to salvation is quite common here.

Oh well.. all sorts here eh
It shouldn't be surprising. The biblical record expresses that it is in obedience to the God-given command that one's personal sins are remitted. This truth is referenced by Jesus, Peter, Paul, Ananias and others in the Word. (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38-41, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16, Rom. 6:3-6)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#88
...
Because the Kingdom of God is pure and everything natural has been corrupted by sin. So one must be born also by the Spirit so that they can be made compatible with God's Kingdom.
Simply put, your citizenship is transferred from the kingdom of the world to the kingdom of God when you are born of Him, giving you the right to enter the kingdom with your new citizenship after death.
As you say, sin must be dealt with in order to enter the kingdom of God. Consider that according to the Word sin is remitted in obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#89
What is Jesus saying to Nicodemus in John 3:8
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
The wind is invisible but you know it is present through sound. This parallels how the apostles knew people had received the Holy Spirit:

Acts 2:2-8
“And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he (Jesus) hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 19:1-6
“And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#90
...
So this lesson is not just about how grand Peter is...
It is a mistake to think that the exchange had anything to do with Peter being "special." He was not. God just chose him to initially present the gospel message to the Jews and Gentiles.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
9,834
4,320
113
mywebsite.us
#92
By God's design, being born naturally involves coming out of water. The bible says Spiritual truths can be understood by the things God made so man is without an excuse. (Rom 1:20) Being reborn Spiritually involves water baptism.
What about the thief on the cross? Do you really believe Jesus sent him over to the other side to hell after a short time with Him in Paradise?

The thief was spiritually reborn at the moment of his faith in Jesus.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
113
#93
In John 3: 5 Jesus talks about being born of water and the Spirit, what does this mean? Also, why can't one enter into the kingdom of God because of this?
John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
This statement of Christ is critical because the New Birth is imperative -- essential not only to enter into the Kingdom of God but to see the Kingdom of God.

The reason every human being must be born again is because when a person is born through the natural process of childbirth, he or she is born with the indwelling sin nature or "flesh" inherited from Adam. Which makes everyone subject to the Law of Sin and Death. But also born separated and alienated from God. Therefore in jeopardy of the Second Death (Hell -- the Lake of Fire).

WATER
This metaphor has been greatly misunderstood, and very few see it as applicable to the Gospel.
But it is the "water" of the Word of God (the Gospel) which generates faith in Christ (1 Peter 1:23-25). Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17). Since Christ was speaking about spiritual matters this was definitely NOT a reference to amniotic fluid during childbirth, but the "clean water" of the Gospel mentioned in Ezekiel 36:25-27: Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This passage in Ezekiel is speaking about the New Birth, which means a supernatural regeneration by the power of the Holy Spirit in order to create (a) a new heart and (b) a new spirit within the sinner. But first there must be faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption (John 1:12,13).

SPIRIT
This is a reference to God the Holy Spirit. When the Gospel is preached (or read) the Holy Spirit accompanies the Word of God (which was inspired by the Holy Spirit) in order to (a) convict and (b) convince the hearer of the Gospel. Through the Gospel every person must be convicted of the fact that they are sinners who have violated the Law of God and are therefore in danger of Hell Fire. They must also be convinced that Christ died for their sins and rose again for their justification, and that those who believe on Him are justified by grace through faith, and receive the gift of eternal life (as well as the gift of the Holy Spirit). So this is the work of the Holy Spirit as stated by Christ in John 16:7-11: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Those who are born again have the Holy Spirit, and He is the one who enables them to not only enter into the Kingdom of God but also to "see" it. Which means to spiritually discern what God has said in the Bible about all things spiritual. When God justifies a sinner, He sees the believer as righteous in Christ, having the robe of the righteousness of Christ covering him. Thus a person can enter Heaven knowing that his sins have been forgiven and that he is a child of God. This is definitely not a "license to sin" but quite the opposite: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Tit 2:11-14)
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,065
4,347
113
#94
Since God is a spirit how would one worship Him in the spirit? Regular worship would not suffice, if it did He wouldn't have said one must worship Him in spirit. This separates these people as true worshipers who worship God in the spirit from the ones who would worship God through the flesh.
seem we always leave out the Truth Part.

John 4:24


24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,019
8,374
113
#95
Because it was early in his ministry. He had done a few miracles but hadn't fed the crowds yet.

Jesus was never the most popular "Messiah" during that era. There were others much much more popular. They all had tens of thousands following them ready, willing, and able to fight the Roman Army.

25,000 followers were never mentioned as to following Jesus personally. 5,000 showed up once for a free meal....
The other "messiahs" had at least that many. Of course they all died because of the Roman Army...and they had supposedly done miracles as well. But Jesus did some very PUBLICLY known people miracles.... meaning that everyone knew those that were healed.
A big difference between Jesus (unpopular) but known people who got healed. (Blind man begging every day publicly)
Totally disagree. Jesus so-called "popularity" was unparalleled. It was immense. There are many passages but let's start with Matthew 4:23-25. This was the very beginning of His Galilean ministry.

Let me ask you this: If you heard that a Man was actually and truly healing people how big would the crowd be? Huge. And they came from all the surrounding areas as well.

As for the feeding of 5000 the actual size of the crowd was more like 20-25,000.

During the time of Jesus' ministry the number of true disciples may have been limited. But the crowds were enormous.

Even John the Baptist crowds were immense. But Jesus multitudes were far greater and followed him for days on end. On foot. With no food or lodging.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,584
9,104
113
#96
What about the thief on the cross? Do you really believe Jesus sent him over to the other side to hell after a short time with Him in Paradise?

The thief was spiritually reborn at the moment of his faith in Jesus.
She claims ya didn’t have to get baptized until Jesus death and resurrection.

So all the Old Testament saints get a baptism pass.

Of course the WHOLE reason for including the thief on the cross account was to show that it’s never too late to believe, accept, and be born again. Baptism or not.
 
Feb 22, 2022
20
7
3
#97
seem we always leave out the Truth Part.

John 4:24


24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
This was going to be a two part question. But since you brought it up how does one worship God in Spirit and in truth?
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,065
4,347
113
#98
This was going to be a two part question. But since you brought it up how does one worship God in Spirit and in truth?
Well in my humble opinion as I see in the word of God in the same Gospel, Jesus said HE is the Only alētheia "Truth" in John 14:6

to Worship God, in spirit, and in truth we must see what Jesus said before that statement.

John 4:23
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jesus exposed the women's current condition which was thinking she was right with God because of where she worshiped God instead of How she was worshiping God.

She was trying to be justified by the flesh, not by the spirit, she said to Jesus "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."

Jesus responded:

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
“You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.


What did she need to know?


Well, the text says :

"The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”"

Jesus said:

Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.


The Truth we are to KNOW is the Lord Jesus Christ and those who come to Him must believe that HE is the Truth, the Life, and the Way .

Jesus said "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:

The time of sin separating man from God is about to be over Jesus is Going to make the final payment for all sin.

Those who come to know HIM HE will place HIS Spirit in them and speak truth to them and that the lie we use to live will change as this woman lived a lie but was told the truth and was given Truth to set her free.

Where the Spirit is there is liberty, Whom the Son has set free is free indeed.

what is worshiping God in Spirit and truth?

it is repentance, surrendering, and receiving from the Lord Jesus Christ who leads us and guides us INTO ALL TRUTH.
That faith will have us accept the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord by Grace until salvation.


"I who speak to you am He.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
#99
Why do you claim that those verses are about water baptism?
In each of the conversion experiences baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus pertains to being baptized in water, and receiving the Holy Ghost/Spirit is a separate event. I included the scriptures for your convenience. Water baptisms=bold, receiving the Holy Ghost=underlined.

Acts 2:38-39 (Jewish) The group did not receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believed in Jesus. However, they were told they could expect the Holy Ghost at some point.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, AND ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 9:17-18 (Paul received the Holy Ghost and submitted to water baptism)
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.


Acts 22:14-16 (Paul's obedience to water baptism washed away his sins according to Ananias)
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 8:12-17 (Samaritans-half jewish-half gentile)
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:43-48 (Gentiles)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:2-6 (Disciples who did not realize they had to water baptized in Jesus name)
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
AND
when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,254
1,109
113
What about the thief on the cross? Do you really believe Jesus sent him over to the other side to hell after a short time with Him in Paradise?

The thief was spiritually reborn at the moment of his faith in Jesus.
The thief died prior to the NT mandate that was instituted on the Day of Pentecost. This truth was prophesied by Jesus in Luke 24:47. Being reborn spiritually required receiving the Holy Ghost, and having one's sins dealt with in obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus in association with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. (Acts 2:2-38) The requirements presented by Peter parallel Jesus' statement in John 3:3-5.

See Paul's comments concerning what occurs when one is obedient to the command to be baptized in Romans 6:3-6.