If you don't like the truth and don't like what I'm saying, then feel free to stop responding to me. But if you're going to make bogus claims that xmas, easter, halloween are okay to keep before God, then I'm going to come on here and call you on the lies. Because the Bible says different than what you say. Just one question, since you claim to want to please God, do you keep the 7 feasts that He commanded us to keep?
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R
If you're going to make the bogus claim that I don't want to please God or follow His commandments and I celebrate like a pagan, then I'm going to come on here and call you on the lies.
Just one question, since you claim you want to please God, do you love your neighbor as yourself, be at peace with your neighbors and avoid acting as a stumbling block to your brothers and sisters?
Just one question, since you claim you want to please God, do you love your neighbor as yourself, be at peace with your neighbors and avoid acting as a stumbling block to your brothers and sisters?
I sure do, I'm there for anyone who is truly seeking to honor God His way and not there's. To lift up and encourage, just as I have those who do the same for me as well. But those who want to ignore God's clear truth, because of there selfish desires I will call them on it in a heart beat. Especially when they are telling others it's ok.
C
I think the problem is that really we do not consider ourselves pagans, I would say to rainacorn that its more of the observance of these days, and considering them holy (when they are not) thats the trouble. You may spend the day glorifying God and Jesus, but just note that these are NOT christian and they do have pagan backgrounds which are masked today with commericialism, 'fun' and christianity (xmas), even then we could say that observing these days along with the other holy days are like being under the law, these things do not grant us favour necessarily with God, but we are trying to do what God and Jesus command so obviously we feel inclined to do things written in the bible, its tough i tell you! confusing too but hopefully you know Jesus just rebukes us and helps us and we continue to walk without causing ourselves to stumble so often.
So i would just say worship Christ ask for wisdom and Jesus and the Lord will provide and do not worry about this stuff so much to the point of judging the people participating in these things because most do not even know what they are doing right? Just gotta keep quiet and sort of trudge along i guess and speak up when it is asked of you maybe and then bore people with long tedious answers about why this holiday is bad and why i dont celebrate it and etc....
So i would just say worship Christ ask for wisdom and Jesus and the Lord will provide and do not worry about this stuff so much to the point of judging the people participating in these things because most do not even know what they are doing right? Just gotta keep quiet and sort of trudge along i guess and speak up when it is asked of you maybe and then bore people with long tedious answers about why this holiday is bad and why i dont celebrate it and etc....
G
I didn't. Incidentally, the Pharisees were zealous after God's law to the point where they were righteous according to the law. They were the ones championing God's laws. Just like Christ's body, we believers have divided it...WE...meaning you and I, such as right here on this website. But the law was primarily observational and superficial--the religious observer. Again, God's commandments to Moses were written on stone tablets--the decalogue. Christ's are two and they, as a fellow poster said, are written and embedded in the heart--the faith-filled believer.
We are always in danger of developing a Pharisaic heart--its called complacency, self-righteousness, overconfidence, knowledge, etc. I include myself in this statement. If yo do not, check your scriptural mirror.
I do not think any of us truly understand the work of Jesus Christ with regard to the OT / NT, the torn veil, the redemption of the lost. How can we? So we hold to what God has given, His son Jesus Christ, the new wine from God the Father. Mark 2:22 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins.”
We must hold to Jesus, not the law. Jesus fulfilled the law, yes. he also "burst" the law. Yet If anyone is worshipping their car, their computer, their day off from work because of a president, a true day of remembering masked by a fat, red, worldly suit...if they are loving this over and above Christ's two commands, then yes they are in error. However, they are clearly not following Christ, so indeed they are only in error of not believing in Him. This is because Christ's two commands held one word in common, but two for the greek....AGAPE & PHILEO. Love God, love man.
We are always in danger of developing a Pharisaic heart--its called complacency, self-righteousness, overconfidence, knowledge, etc. I include myself in this statement. If yo do not, check your scriptural mirror.
I do not think any of us truly understand the work of Jesus Christ with regard to the OT / NT, the torn veil, the redemption of the lost. How can we? So we hold to what God has given, His son Jesus Christ, the new wine from God the Father. Mark 2:22 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins.”
We must hold to Jesus, not the law. Jesus fulfilled the law, yes. he also "burst" the law. Yet If anyone is worshipping their car, their computer, their day off from work because of a president, a true day of remembering masked by a fat, red, worldly suit...if they are loving this over and above Christ's two commands, then yes they are in error. However, they are clearly not following Christ, so indeed they are only in error of not believing in Him. This is because Christ's two commands held one word in common, but two for the greek....AGAPE & PHILEO. Love God, love man.
G
My problem for anyone issuing admonishment against holidays is that you have not shown one verse that applies or establishes support. If I am in error, issue reproof through scripture...in truth, that is what I want. If I am erring...it is my life's pursuit to know. And I obviously will to varying degrees until the Lord comes.
Gal 4:10 was not in reference to pagan observances, but Judaic ones. Paul's mission was clear, he was to bring Christ's saving word to the gentiles. The gentiles were being told to conform to the requirements of the law--the law to God's chosen people, the Jews.
Phil 3:2-7 "For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
The very circumcision of God's promise to Abraham was overwritten by Jesus Christ. The circumcision! This is so deep, so enormous, so "new wineskin". I am American and I am circumcised. I did not circumcise my two sons, as there was clearly no basis for it.
Note then in Gal 4:12, "Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you." Paul had to become a gentile, as this is what Christ commanded. Paul's life and ministry explains what the torn veil looks like for a Christ believing, Jesus following Jew. It does not look like the Pharisaic pursuit of the law, or a Pharisaic pursuit of law through Christ. Again, the word Pharisaic is only negative in the sense that Christ exposed their superficial flaw. BUT...they knew no better because God's son Jesus Christ hadn't come to show them. If they already knew, Christ would have been irrelevant. Paul was a zealous Pharisee who pursued his "life/job" to a T.
Not once have I seen one biblical verse, that rightfully even forbids or condemns faithful christians not to observe holidays such as Valentines day, Christmas, easter, President's day, Martin Luther King Day. So what am I missing? On a site that never lacks scriptural reference, this post is surprisingly in a stage of drought. You who say celebrating a holiday is erring, what are you standing on?
Gal 4:10 was not in reference to pagan observances, but Judaic ones. Paul's mission was clear, he was to bring Christ's saving word to the gentiles. The gentiles were being told to conform to the requirements of the law--the law to God's chosen people, the Jews.
Phil 3:2-7 "For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
The very circumcision of God's promise to Abraham was overwritten by Jesus Christ. The circumcision! This is so deep, so enormous, so "new wineskin". I am American and I am circumcised. I did not circumcise my two sons, as there was clearly no basis for it.
Note then in Gal 4:12, "Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you." Paul had to become a gentile, as this is what Christ commanded. Paul's life and ministry explains what the torn veil looks like for a Christ believing, Jesus following Jew. It does not look like the Pharisaic pursuit of the law, or a Pharisaic pursuit of law through Christ. Again, the word Pharisaic is only negative in the sense that Christ exposed their superficial flaw. BUT...they knew no better because God's son Jesus Christ hadn't come to show them. If they already knew, Christ would have been irrelevant. Paul was a zealous Pharisee who pursued his "life/job" to a T.
Not once have I seen one biblical verse, that rightfully even forbids or condemns faithful christians not to observe holidays such as Valentines day, Christmas, easter, President's day, Martin Luther King Day. So what am I missing? On a site that never lacks scriptural reference, this post is surprisingly in a stage of drought. You who say celebrating a holiday is erring, what are you standing on?
ShmaYisrael2009's Channel - YouTube
greatblue, here is a short audio that breaks down what you're asking. You stated that you want to know the truth. This guy explains pretty good with plenty of scripture about pagan holidays, and historical proof. Not talking about MLK Day or Presidents Day, talking about pagan holidays that have been brought into the church and claimed to be about or for Yeshua. Let me know what you think of it.
greatblue, here is a short audio that breaks down what you're asking. You stated that you want to know the truth. This guy explains pretty good with plenty of scripture about pagan holidays, and historical proof. Not talking about MLK Day or Presidents Day, talking about pagan holidays that have been brought into the church and claimed to be about or for Yeshua. Let me know what you think of it.
C
oh i knew about the fact that it was observing the holidays of judiasm, thats why i said to avinu galatians 4:10!
the only verse i can repeat is thou shalt not observe the times (leviticus), and i am standing upon a Rock, but in the process of learning.. either way maybe if I had more faith I probably would be less of a prude in regards to this but still this is my own personal conviction and you may continue to celebrate those holidays, ill just stay out of it until further notice!
the only verse i can repeat is thou shalt not observe the times (leviticus), and i am standing upon a Rock, but in the process of learning.. either way maybe if I had more faith I probably would be less of a prude in regards to this but still this is my own personal conviction and you may continue to celebrate those holidays, ill just stay out of it until further notice!
G
Let me first say that I am hard pressed and feel my interest/involvement in topics like these are distracting from more Godly pursuit, such as praying for an encouraging struggling believers with genuine hurts, etc. I am always pulled to scholarly debate, as this is something embedded in my professional life, but I am grieved by the levels of hate and animosity that present themselves here...masked to be sure, and I am equally blamed, but we do an injustice to our God is we are bickering. This being said...
I did listen to the podcast from ShmaYisrael2009's youtube channel. It was interesting and I definitely learned things I hadn't known about, such as a yule tide log, but I was already quite familiar with paganism purported by the catholic church.
The christmas tree allusion in Jer 3:13 speaks of Israel and Judah "scattering their ways under every green tree" -- I am aware of pagan rituals involving every natural resource available on God's earth, whether it be stones or trees (both referenced in Jer 3:9). I can see the argument for the christmas tree being a crossover from pagan ritual, as well as any other "traditional" element. I never gave too much thought into the root of the tree at christmas. As a life in 1975-2012, I have inherited some of the traditional christmas trappings. I'll need to pray and think on this tree of decor.
Jer 10:2-10 is entirely taken out of context. To what is the reference, totem poles? I say this half-jesting because the exact "idol" has endless possibilities. And I use this only because I live in North America and I am instantly aware of this idol of worship among native peoples in this land. To even try to insinuate a christmas tree out of this passage is a stretch. In fact, I will use the word "contrived".
Also, on the Shma Yisael site he totally misuses Matt 5:17-19. The Beattiudes are beautiful as He is teaching all those unlearned, but hungry souls. 5:17-19 is directed at the Pharisees who also stand there, but then He swings His stick in their direction with verses till 7:29. It is massive condemnation that attacks their Pharisaic hearts with regard to the law. This is so seminal to Christ's mission and His message. Christ's law from the Father is so beyond previous knowledge. "You have heard it said to them of Old..." "But I say to you..." He overwrote it all.
Should we celebrate the birth of Christ? Two out of four gospels introduce this time-shattering occurrence, so I think we've lost our way if we aren't celebrating and thanking God for this. Obviously we do it daily, but if God has 7 feasts pre-Christ, certainly the Messiah's birth can be celebrated. Interestingly, I believe Christ fulfilled all feasts, so we uphold this through Him...Matt 5:17-19.
Passover -- Death of Christ (1 Cor 5:7)
Unleavened Bread -- Sinlessness of Christ (1 Cor 5:8)
Firsfruits -- Resurrection of Christ (1 Cor 15:23)
Pentecost -- Outpouring of Spirit of Christ (Acts 1:5; 2:4)
Trumpets -- Israel's Regathering by Christ (Matt 24:31)
Atonement -- Substitutionary Sacrifice by Christ (Rom 11:26)
Tabernacles -- Rest and Reunion with Christ (Zech 14:16-19)
Now the podcast states, "If we wanna keep a celebration of the birth of Messiah, then keep it when it actually happened." This issue is older than dirt and is entirely a moot point. I agree in heart, but think the fact that it is on a date where pagans celebrated is MORE to the glory of God. Or did not Jesus take ownership over every second of every hour of every day…indeed He did. If Jesus Christ became sin for us, then any day you choose is His day.
The podcast also states, "It is wrong to celebrate the birth of Messiah on a day we cannot declare clean what Yahweh has declared unclean." Again, I am so perplexed by this legalism that still butts up against the Son of God and what He did. He did it. Yet, I still see and hear Pharisaic rocks thrown toward His followers. "You're breaking this….you're doing that." We all have different levels of faith. Poor Peter wanted to have the greatest of faith, and even after his vision of cleansed foods, still found himself hypocritically fall into a Pharisaic sin later in life….and it was Peter's vision from God!
I pray for deeper understanding for us all, and believe that for whatever reason God will draw us all near according to His will. I do love the older scriptures, but they do not save. There is only One who saves, and that is Jesus Christ. At the sound of His name, every knee shall bow…it hasn't been spoken yet. The name you call Him, "YHVH, Everlasting Father, Wonderful Counselor, Yeshua, Jesus Christ, Messiah, Lord…" they all point to Him if you are aligned to Him--just as every day points to Him.
I did listen to the podcast from ShmaYisrael2009's youtube channel. It was interesting and I definitely learned things I hadn't known about, such as a yule tide log, but I was already quite familiar with paganism purported by the catholic church.
The christmas tree allusion in Jer 3:13 speaks of Israel and Judah "scattering their ways under every green tree" -- I am aware of pagan rituals involving every natural resource available on God's earth, whether it be stones or trees (both referenced in Jer 3:9). I can see the argument for the christmas tree being a crossover from pagan ritual, as well as any other "traditional" element. I never gave too much thought into the root of the tree at christmas. As a life in 1975-2012, I have inherited some of the traditional christmas trappings. I'll need to pray and think on this tree of decor.
Jer 10:2-10 is entirely taken out of context. To what is the reference, totem poles? I say this half-jesting because the exact "idol" has endless possibilities. And I use this only because I live in North America and I am instantly aware of this idol of worship among native peoples in this land. To even try to insinuate a christmas tree out of this passage is a stretch. In fact, I will use the word "contrived".
Also, on the Shma Yisael site he totally misuses Matt 5:17-19. The Beattiudes are beautiful as He is teaching all those unlearned, but hungry souls. 5:17-19 is directed at the Pharisees who also stand there, but then He swings His stick in their direction with verses till 7:29. It is massive condemnation that attacks their Pharisaic hearts with regard to the law. This is so seminal to Christ's mission and His message. Christ's law from the Father is so beyond previous knowledge. "You have heard it said to them of Old..." "But I say to you..." He overwrote it all.
Should we celebrate the birth of Christ? Two out of four gospels introduce this time-shattering occurrence, so I think we've lost our way if we aren't celebrating and thanking God for this. Obviously we do it daily, but if God has 7 feasts pre-Christ, certainly the Messiah's birth can be celebrated. Interestingly, I believe Christ fulfilled all feasts, so we uphold this through Him...Matt 5:17-19.
Passover -- Death of Christ (1 Cor 5:7)
Unleavened Bread -- Sinlessness of Christ (1 Cor 5:8)
Firsfruits -- Resurrection of Christ (1 Cor 15:23)
Pentecost -- Outpouring of Spirit of Christ (Acts 1:5; 2:4)
Trumpets -- Israel's Regathering by Christ (Matt 24:31)
Atonement -- Substitutionary Sacrifice by Christ (Rom 11:26)
Tabernacles -- Rest and Reunion with Christ (Zech 14:16-19)
Now the podcast states, "If we wanna keep a celebration of the birth of Messiah, then keep it when it actually happened." This issue is older than dirt and is entirely a moot point. I agree in heart, but think the fact that it is on a date where pagans celebrated is MORE to the glory of God. Or did not Jesus take ownership over every second of every hour of every day…indeed He did. If Jesus Christ became sin for us, then any day you choose is His day.
The podcast also states, "It is wrong to celebrate the birth of Messiah on a day we cannot declare clean what Yahweh has declared unclean." Again, I am so perplexed by this legalism that still butts up against the Son of God and what He did. He did it. Yet, I still see and hear Pharisaic rocks thrown toward His followers. "You're breaking this….you're doing that." We all have different levels of faith. Poor Peter wanted to have the greatest of faith, and even after his vision of cleansed foods, still found himself hypocritically fall into a Pharisaic sin later in life….and it was Peter's vision from God!
I pray for deeper understanding for us all, and believe that for whatever reason God will draw us all near according to His will. I do love the older scriptures, but they do not save. There is only One who saves, and that is Jesus Christ. At the sound of His name, every knee shall bow…it hasn't been spoken yet. The name you call Him, "YHVH, Everlasting Father, Wonderful Counselor, Yeshua, Jesus Christ, Messiah, Lord…" they all point to Him if you are aligned to Him--just as every day points to Him.
The Old Testament is needed, without it you can not understand how all that come to pass. At how Yahweh my God already knows all that come to pass.
We are all going through a lesson, and that is if we do not obey,listen and love Yahweh we are leaving ourselves open to evil, that will play on the corrupt seed within us.
Abraham offered Isaac, and showed Almighty Yahweh that he trusted and loved him with all his heart and soul.
Yahweh is so loving and merciful, that he gave his son as our sacrifice, so that we can be saved by accepting Yahweh's son Yeshua our Saviour.
He certainly did not gives his son Yeshua as our Saviour, so that we could continue you in wicked ways, that he detests, despises.
So yes Yeshua is our Saviour , but we do not make our own idea up of what wrong and right is. We search the Scriptures, we learn from it.
How much we can find out if we read it for ourselves, front to back... The message throughout is listen ,obey, love, follow his ways.
He knows what is best for us, and that is all he ever wanted.
The Jewish people constantly angered Yahweh, it is only by his grace, and mercy and love, that he did not destroy them on the way to the Holy Land.
they had no faith, and would quickly turn from his ways.
The Jewish people wanted a king over them, much to Almighty Yahweh dismay, but he gave them a King...
Now after all had come to pass, and all the wicked and evil ways were rampant among his chosen one's, he already had planned to bring his son Yeshua our Saviour from their bloodline.
KING OF KINGS, LORD of LORDS. This shows us that he rules over all, Yahweh son Yeshua did not come to live a life of luxury, he was not power hungry, and it is only because he is son of Yahweh that he did not sin, he did what no other could do.
Yahweh beat the corrupted seed within us, he is the Author of Salvation... Yeshua did not fall to temptation like we all do, he knew he would save his sheep if he obeyed,loved his Father Yahweh.
We are saved through Yeshua, Yahweh can forgive us, and we can have eternal life, but we must learn his ways, we must love and obey even to the point of death to the flesh.
Faith brings obedience, if we fall we will be picked up, if we go astray we will be looked for... but our heart and soul must be in it.. If someone calls you and you keep walking away, that voice will get further from you. It will be harder to hear, thought voice does not stop searching for you, you can walk away so that is is harder to hear.
We are all going through a lesson, and that is if we do not obey,listen and love Yahweh we are leaving ourselves open to evil, that will play on the corrupt seed within us.
Abraham offered Isaac, and showed Almighty Yahweh that he trusted and loved him with all his heart and soul.
Yahweh is so loving and merciful, that he gave his son as our sacrifice, so that we can be saved by accepting Yahweh's son Yeshua our Saviour.
He certainly did not gives his son Yeshua as our Saviour, so that we could continue you in wicked ways, that he detests, despises.
So yes Yeshua is our Saviour , but we do not make our own idea up of what wrong and right is. We search the Scriptures, we learn from it.
How much we can find out if we read it for ourselves, front to back... The message throughout is listen ,obey, love, follow his ways.
He knows what is best for us, and that is all he ever wanted.
The Jewish people constantly angered Yahweh, it is only by his grace, and mercy and love, that he did not destroy them on the way to the Holy Land.
they had no faith, and would quickly turn from his ways.
The Jewish people wanted a king over them, much to Almighty Yahweh dismay, but he gave them a King...
Now after all had come to pass, and all the wicked and evil ways were rampant among his chosen one's, he already had planned to bring his son Yeshua our Saviour from their bloodline.
KING OF KINGS, LORD of LORDS. This shows us that he rules over all, Yahweh son Yeshua did not come to live a life of luxury, he was not power hungry, and it is only because he is son of Yahweh that he did not sin, he did what no other could do.
Yahweh beat the corrupted seed within us, he is the Author of Salvation... Yeshua did not fall to temptation like we all do, he knew he would save his sheep if he obeyed,loved his Father Yahweh.
We are saved through Yeshua, Yahweh can forgive us, and we can have eternal life, but we must learn his ways, we must love and obey even to the point of death to the flesh.
Faith brings obedience, if we fall we will be picked up, if we go astray we will be looked for... but our heart and soul must be in it.. If someone calls you and you keep walking away, that voice will get further from you. It will be harder to hear, thought voice does not stop searching for you, you can walk away so that is is harder to hear.
K
So what if Christmas is actually a pagan day? Who cares?
All I know is that it's a great excuse to praise God for giving us the gift of Jesus...
Not to mention all the parties, presents, time off work, food and beer that come with it! Yay for having fun!!!
People who don't celebrate Christmas just because it's originally a pagan festival - okay, that's your prerogative, fine.
But don't be such a killjoy for the rest of us.
Shalom!
All I know is that it's a great excuse to praise God for giving us the gift of Jesus...
Not to mention all the parties, presents, time off work, food and beer that come with it! Yay for having fun!!!
People who don't celebrate Christmas just because it's originally a pagan festival - okay, that's your prerogative, fine.
But don't be such a killjoy for the rest of us.
Shalom!
A scripture on Christmas trees...
Jeremiah 10:2-5:
"Do not learn the way of the Gentiles;
Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven,
For the Gentiles are dismayed at them.
For the customs of the peoples are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers
So that it will not topple.
They are upright, like a palm tree,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot go by themselves.
Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good.”
Jeremiah 10:2-5:
"Do not learn the way of the Gentiles;
Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven,
For the Gentiles are dismayed at them.
For the customs of the peoples are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers
So that it will not topple.
They are upright, like a palm tree,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot go by themselves.
Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good.”