What does "limited atonement" mean?
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The point being, that when Christ and Paul spoke of being slaves to sin, it was as a salvation issue As you have said, Christ's context was concerning rebirth into God's family(and therefore a salvation issue) Paul used the term to say if we are slaves to sin it leads to death,(a salvation issue) so with respect I don't see your context of the term, used by Christ or Paul, for your context makes it a non salvation issue, that is my point
(I am using the principle of slavery given by Jesus to show that man does not have a will that is absolutely free.
And that is exactly what Paul states in Ro 8:7-8.) Elin
As I have already said. Christ and Paul use the term as a salvation issue, you do not, so I am suprised you quote Christ concerning this
(I am using the principle of slavery given by Jesus to show that man does not have a will that is absolutely free.
And that is exactly what Paul states in Ro 8:7-8.
If man's will were absolutly free, he could choose never to sin.
Adam had an absolutely free will, and could choose never to sin, and he lost that freedom when he disobeyed God.)ELIN
I am also a little puzzled as to why you quote Paul in Rom8:7&8 in support of the position concerning man not having complete free will and this is why he could not choose to never sin
Paul states:
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. [SUP]9 [/SUP]You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. [SUP]1
Rom8:6-9
[/SUP][SUP]S[/SUP][SUP]urely for a Christian the relevant verses are 6&9 not 7&8, for 6&9 speak of the mind governed by the Spirit, 7&8 do not. As the Spirit lives in all Christians, I am suprised you are quoting the verse you are to prove a Christian has no free will to cease sin
For it is the Spirit that sanctifies the Christian[/SUP]
And that is exactly what Paul states in Ro 8:7-8.) Elin
As I have already said. Christ and Paul use the term as a salvation issue, you do not, so I am suprised you quote Christ concerning this
(I am using the principle of slavery given by Jesus to show that man does not have a will that is absolutely free.
And that is exactly what Paul states in Ro 8:7-8.
If man's will were absolutly free, he could choose never to sin.
Adam had an absolutely free will, and could choose never to sin, and he lost that freedom when he disobeyed God.)ELIN
I am also a little puzzled as to why you quote Paul in Rom8:7&8 in support of the position concerning man not having complete free will and this is why he could not choose to never sin
Paul states:
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. [SUP]9 [/SUP]You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. [SUP]1
Rom8:6-9
[/SUP][SUP]S[/SUP][SUP]urely for a Christian the relevant verses are 6&9 not 7&8, for 6&9 speak of the mind governed by the Spirit, 7&8 do not. As the Spirit lives in all Christians, I am suprised you are quoting the verse you are to prove a Christian has no free will to cease sin
For it is the Spirit that sanctifies the Christian[/SUP]
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God isn't creating mankind though is he. God created man in the first instance and then told us "Be fruitful and multiply"
So now we bring children into the world and knowing we would sin God provided a way of escape so that all those who will, shall be saved.
John 3:16 says "God so loved the world" and Romans 10:13 says "whosoever shall", this doesn't sound like God making the decision for man, rather man choosing God or Hell.
So now we bring children into the world and knowing we would sin God provided a way of escape so that all those who will, shall be saved.
John 3:16 says "God so loved the world" and Romans 10:13 says "whosoever shall", this doesn't sound like God making the decision for man, rather man choosing God or Hell.
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I am afraid I cannot agree with you Elin. I grew up in a church where everything was black and white, and in the real world I found it not be so. New Christians and those seeking come to these websites, and satan is subtle, and many I am sure are going through difficult times. If they are told they will sin/sin i9s inevitable because they do not have free will not to sin, invaribly for some, at times that may be a detremental message. That to me is the real world.
I never discuss OSAS on these sites. I do wonder how some, again searching or young in the faith feel when they read a comment like.
'Some people are born with no option than to end up in a lake of fire as God has not chosen them as one of the elect'
Well; on another website I do know how a couple of new Christians felt as to those kind of comments.
Personally I wish no one who had been a Christian less than five years ventured onto these sites. Far safer just to learn, or look to learn from a qualified minister.
And I know I have not always acted as I should, on internet websites myself , so I shoulder as much responsibility as anyone else.
I never discuss OSAS on these sites. I do wonder how some, again searching or young in the faith feel when they read a comment like.
'Some people are born with no option than to end up in a lake of fire as God has not chosen them as one of the elect'
Well; on another website I do know how a couple of new Christians felt as to those kind of comments.
Personally I wish no one who had been a Christian less than five years ventured onto these sites. Far safer just to learn, or look to learn from a qualified minister.
And I know I have not always acted as I should, on internet websites myself , so I shoulder as much responsibility as anyone else.
M
Much like kids ...even when adults some still think the noble way to wisdom is learning from their own mistakes
It becomes a practiced behavior which some don't progress away from to the more noble form of knowledge and wisdom.
God usually reveals himself just enough at a time in his timing to allow a person to learn as they are able and willing, willing being one of the the key elements by way of shedding stubborness. (shedding of the self)
God gave us our brain, because he wants us to think and reflect while coming to him for guidance in the process.
Ya know how God tests us?
Well much like a teacher initiating a test, and sometimes pop quizes
If he gave us all the answers all the time, we wouldnt learn nuthin.
We have to be able to call upon what God given knowledge we at least do have for the moment and be able to determine how and when to apply said knowledge in certain applications.
It takes forethought and planning.
God has it all planned out,
Our willingness to cooperate in that plan, again is one of the key elements between the choice of abiding in his will while relying upon the understanding he gives us as opposed to always relying on our own understanding.
...In other words, when we dont understand something
...when we have tried to research follow his word to figure something out
...after we have applied all our available knowledge correctly.
Sometimes he does just give us the answers because our own stubborness and constantly asking why , why, would make the learning curve take too long
Kinda like a kid asking why, well why, well how come
Sometimes God will say, cuz I said so, you'll know why later.
And thats where faith comes in.
Yet he often wants us to try first before asking for all the answers so its not like cheating on a test just asking for the answers before we even try.
Have you ever noticed that God lays out a lot of things for us but leaves the why part(the reasons behind what he asks of us) out.
Thems part of the secrets of the kingdom to be revealed to us.
Much like your own kids will later understand reasons behind the way you may have brought them up when they may have not understood why at the time.
It becomes a practiced behavior which some don't progress away from to the more noble form of knowledge and wisdom.
God usually reveals himself just enough at a time in his timing to allow a person to learn as they are able and willing, willing being one of the the key elements by way of shedding stubborness. (shedding of the self)
God gave us our brain, because he wants us to think and reflect while coming to him for guidance in the process.
Ya know how God tests us?
Well much like a teacher initiating a test, and sometimes pop quizes
If he gave us all the answers all the time, we wouldnt learn nuthin.
We have to be able to call upon what God given knowledge we at least do have for the moment and be able to determine how and when to apply said knowledge in certain applications.
It takes forethought and planning.
God has it all planned out,
Our willingness to cooperate in that plan, again is one of the key elements between the choice of abiding in his will while relying upon the understanding he gives us as opposed to always relying on our own understanding.
...In other words, when we dont understand something
...when we have tried to research follow his word to figure something out
...after we have applied all our available knowledge correctly.
Sometimes he does just give us the answers because our own stubborness and constantly asking why , why, would make the learning curve take too long
Kinda like a kid asking why, well why, well how come
Sometimes God will say, cuz I said so, you'll know why later.
And thats where faith comes in.
Yet he often wants us to try first before asking for all the answers so its not like cheating on a test just asking for the answers before we even try.
Have you ever noticed that God lays out a lot of things for us but leaves the why part(the reasons behind what he asks of us) out.
Thems part of the secrets of the kingdom to be revealed to us.
Much like your own kids will later understand reasons behind the way you may have brought them up when they may have not understood why at the time.
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well i know His purposes are the Highest.
and whatever happens it will be Good.
and i know all men won't be saved.
that hurts very very much and i don't understand it.
but there are no words to say how grateful i am He called me.
Matthew 10:35
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
i want my family to know Him and be saved
but they can't hear.
and whatever happens it will be Good.
and i know all men won't be saved.
that hurts very very much and i don't understand it.
but there are no words to say how grateful i am He called me.
Matthew 10:35
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
i want my family to know Him and be saved
but they can't hear.
I suspect in glory we will be in complete agreement with it, and it won't hurt anymore.
I rest in trusting God for what I would rather he not do.
I know he will make it all right when I am with him, and I will agree with him then.
but there are no words to say how grateful i am He called me.
Matthew 10:35
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
i want my family to know Him and be saved
but they can't hear.
Matthew 10:35
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
i want my family to know Him and be saved
but they can't hear.
I know he will make it all right when I am with him, and I will agree with him then.
Matthew 10:35
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
i want my family to know Him and be saved
but they can't hear.
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
i want my family to know Him and be saved
but they can't hear.
Mt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them.]