What does "limited atonement" mean?

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Elin

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It might be. But you would have to be pretty naive not to see, that if a person believed:

But believers still have the fallen nature, although they have been freed from the power of sin.

And their fallen nature limits their moral power.

For example, does the believer have the moral power to choose to live a completely sinless life?

He does not


T
hey would, inevitably at times fall back on the above as an excuse for sin
Good luck with their selling that to God.

Their spiritual foolishness is dangerous.

The repentant born-again believer does not go there.
 

Elin

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Elin said:
Jesus, through regeneration, frees those who believe in him from that hostility, insubordination and inability to obey God.

But believers still have the fallen nature, although they have been freed from the power of sin.

And their fallen nature limits their moral power.

For example, does the believer have the moral power to choose to live a completely sinless life?

He does not. But Adam had that power before the fall, and he lost it when he disobeyed God.

So slavery to sin speaks of our fallen nature and the limitations it places on our ability to make all moral choices.
I am having problems with the above Elin. For clearly the emboldened according to what you write refers to the Christian, the person accepted by God. Now if the above is true, the convert must remain a slave to sin, but Paul says this cannot happen:

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey – whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?


The point being, that when Christ and Paul spoke of being slaves to sin, they both said the Christian would be set free of being a slave to sin. As you have said, Christ's context was concerning rebirth into God's family(and therefore a salvation issue) Paul used the term to say if we are slaves to sin it leads to death,(a salvation issue) so with respect I don't see your context of the term, used by Christ or Paul, for your context makes it a non salvation issue, that is my point
What part of the following do you not understand?

Okay, to address it in your terms.

He is a slave in that he is not free to choose/make all moral choices and, therefore, cannot choose to live a sinless life.

He is a slave to the llmitations of his fallen nature, he is not free from those limitations, which Adam did not have before he disobeyed God and, therefore, Adam was created truly free to make all moral choices.

It's the same as me being a slave to gravity.
I am not free in my person to overcome its limitations.
I must go outside my person to overcome it.
 
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The point being, that when Christ and Paul spoke of being slaves to sin, it was as a salvation issue As you have said, Christ's context was concerning rebirth into God's family(and therefore a salvation issue) Paul used the term to say if we are slaves to sin it leads to death,(a salvation issue) so with respect I don't see your context of the term, used by Christ or Paul, for your context makes it a non salvation issue, that is my point
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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and this is the core of the issue.
for me anyhow, at this time.

God's choices.

maybe posting on His choice of Israel above other nations, through whom He would bring The Seed is my approach for a time.

even a look at The Lord's genealogy (if nothing else) shows He Himself made precise, absolute choices.

because that's in there also.

for us to say this kind of choice is not like individual choice is guesswork as far as i can see.

but i reckon it's time for me to look at what you have on man's responsiblity Elin.
i'm looking back at this, since i must have made a decision at some point, but i sure don't remember it.
What decision are you referring to?
 

Elin

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The point being, that when Christ and Paul spoke of being slaves to sin, it was as a salvation issue As you have said, Christ's context was concerning rebirth into God's family(and therefore a salvation issue) Paul used the term to say if we are slaves to sin it leads to death,(a salvation issue) so with respect I don't see your context of the term, used by Christ or Paul, for your context makes it a non salvation issue, that is my point
That was addressed to you here, here, and here.

What are you not understanding in my responses?
 
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That was addressed to you here, here, and here.

What are you not understanding in my responses?
(I am using the principle of slavery given by Jesus to show that man does not have a will that is absolutely free.
And that is exactly what Paul states in Ro 8:7-8.) Elin


A
s I have already said. Christ and Paul use the term as a salvation issue, you do not, so I am suprised you quote Christ concerning this



(I am using the principle of slavery given by Jesus to show that man does not have a will that is absolutely free.
And that is exactly what Paul states in Ro 8:7-8.

If man's will were absolutly free, he could choose never to sin.
Adam had an absolutely free will, and could choose never to sin, and he lost that freedom when he disobeyed God.)ELIN

I am also a little puzzled as to why you quote Paul in Rom8:7&8 in support of the position concerning man not having complete free will and this is why he could not choose to never sin

Paul states:

The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. [SUP]9 [/SUP]You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. [SUP]1
Rom8:6-9

[/SUP][SUP]S[/SUP]
[SUP]urely for a Christian the relevant verses are 6&9 not 7&8, for 6&9 speak of the mind governed by the Spirit, 7&8 do not. As the Spirit lives in all Christians, I am suprised you are quoting the verse you are to prove a Christian has no free will to cease sin
For it is the Spirit that sanctifies the Christian[/SUP]
 
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PS

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Jan 11, 2013
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The subject is unjustice,
and the difference under discussion is between the "injustice" of God unconditionally electing some and not all,
and man making the decisive choice to believe, making God "just" in sending them to hell.

My point is to show that removing unconditional election does not make God more just,
because he still creates those whom he knows will choose to go to hell, when he could save them from hell by just not creating them at all.

How do the actual facts of creation in omniscience make him more loving?

They don't. You still have to reckon with God's sovereign choice, either in election or in creation.
God isn't creating mankind though is he. God created man in the first instance and then told us "Be fruitful and multiply"

So now we bring children into the world and knowing we would sin God provided a way of escape so that all those who will, shall be saved.

John 3:16 says "God so loved the world" and Romans 10:13 says "whosoever shall", this doesn't sound like God making the decision for man, rather man choosing God or Hell.
 
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Good luck with their selling that to God.

Their spiritual foolishness is dangerous.

The repentant born-again believer does not go there.
I am afraid I cannot agree with you Elin. I grew up in a church where everything was black and white, and in the real world I found it not be so. New Christians and those seeking come to these websites, and satan is subtle, and many I am sure are going through difficult times. If they are told they will sin/sin i9s inevitable because they do not have free will not to sin, invaribly for some, at times that may be a detremental message. That to me is the real world.
I never discuss OSAS on these sites. I do wonder how some, again searching or young in the faith feel when they read a comment like.
'Some people are born with no option than to end up in a lake of fire as God has not chosen them as one of the elect'

Well; on another website I do know how a couple of new Christians felt as to those kind of comments.

Personally I wish no one who had been a Christian less than five years ventured onto these sites. Far safer just to learn, or look to learn from a qualified minister.

And I know I have not always acted as I should, on internet websites myself , so I shoulder as much responsibility as anyone else.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Absolutely
It ain't a theological exercise
But that outside source enters your life pretty quick once you do accept him
YOu completely missed the point. That 'outside source' is God the Father opening our eyes to believe. Reread Mk. 16:17
 
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YOu completely missed the point. That 'outside source' is God the Father opening our eyes to believe. Reread Mk. 16:17
And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues

I am rather tired tonight. What is your point?
 

crossnote

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And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues

I am rather tired tonight. What is your point?
Simply that we need an 'eye opener' before we can see and believe. Faith is not something we drum up on our own.
 
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Simply that we need an 'eye opener' before we can see and believe. Faith is not something we drum up on our own.
Absolutely not
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – [SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast
Eph2:8&9

If anyone believes they can drum up their own faith they would have major problems I am sure we would agree
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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really?
why doesn't He woo my mother harder?
i want her to be saved.
just wondering out loud.
Maybe we aren't the center of the universe.

Maybe God has a higher purpose than the salvation of all men.

Is that possible?
 
M

MidniteWelder

Guest
we are talking about ETERNAL FIRE.
not a booboo.

eh..
Much like kids ...even when adults some still think the noble way to wisdom is learning from their own mistakes
It becomes a practiced behavior which some don't progress away from to the more noble form of knowledge and wisdom.
God usually reveals himself just enough at a time in his timing to allow a person to learn as they are able and willing, willing being one of the the key elements by way of shedding stubborness. (shedding of the self)
God gave us our brain, because he wants us to think and reflect while coming to him for guidance in the process.
Ya know how God tests us?
Well much like a teacher initiating a test, and sometimes pop quizes
If he gave us all the answers all the time, we wouldnt learn nuthin.
We have to be able to call upon what God given knowledge we at least do have for the moment and be able to determine how and when to apply said knowledge in certain applications.
It takes forethought and planning.
God has it all planned out,
Our willingness to cooperate in that plan, again is one of the key elements between the choice of abiding in his will while relying upon the understanding he gives us as opposed to always relying on our own understanding.
...In other words, when we dont understand something
...when we have tried to research follow his word to figure something out
...after we have applied all our available knowledge correctly.
Sometimes he does just give us the answers because our own stubborness and constantly asking why , why, would make the learning curve take too long
Kinda like a kid asking why, well why, well how come
Sometimes God will say, cuz I said so, you'll know why later.
And thats where faith comes in.
Yet he often wants us to try first before asking for all the answers so its not like cheating on a test just asking for the answers before we even try.
Have you ever noticed that God lays out a lot of things for us but leaves the why part(the reasons behind what he asks of us) out.
Thems part of the secrets of the kingdom to be revealed to us.
Much like your own kids will later understand reasons behind the way you may have brought them up when they may have not understood why at the time.
 
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zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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Maybe we aren't the center of the universe.

Maybe God has a higher purpose than the salvation of all men.

Is that possible?
well i know His purposes are the Highest.
and whatever happens it will be Good.
and i know all men won't be saved.
that hurts very very much and i don't understand it.
but there are no words to say how grateful i am He called me.

Matthew 10:35
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

i want my family to know Him and be saved:(
but they can't hear.
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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yep Welder.
but we can hear the Lord.
He made us able.

i mean those who can't or won't.
i wish they could.
that's all.
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
I am using the principle of slavery given by Jesus to show that man does not have a will that is absolutely free.
And that is exactly what Paul states in Ro 8:7-8.

If man's will were absolutly free, he could choose never to sin.
Adam had an absolutely free will, and could choose never to sin, and he lost that freedom when he disobeyed God.
I am a little puzzled as to why you quote Paul in Rom8:7&8 in support of the position concerning man not having complete free will and this is why he could not choose to never sin

Paul states:

The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. [SUP]9 [/SUP]You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. [SUP]1
Rom8:6-9

[/SUP][SUP]S[/SUP]
[SUP]urely for a Christian the relevant verses are 6&9 not 7&8, for 6&9 speak of the mind governed by the Spirit, 7&8 do not. As the Spirit lives in all Christians, I am suprised you are quoting the verse you are to prove a Christian has no free will to cease sin
For it is the Spirit that sanctifies the Christian.[/SUP]
You're handling things a little loosely.

Ro 7:7-8 is not dealing with free will.

"Sinless life" does not equate to the Biblical meaning of "cease to sin."

"Limited free will" does not equate to "no will to cease sin."

You'll never sort it out without making correct distinctions.
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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well i know His purposes are the Highest.
and whatever happens it will be Good.
and i know all men won't be saved.
that hurts very very much and i don't understand it.
I suspect in glory we will be in complete agreement with it, and it won't hurt anymore.

but there are no words to say how grateful i am He called me.

Matthew 10:35
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

i want my family to know Him and be saved:(
but they can't hear.
I rest in trusting God for what I would rather he not do.

I know he will make it all right when I am with him, and I will agree with him then.
 
M

MidniteWelder

Guest
yep Welder.
but we can hear the Lord.
He made us able.

i mean those who can't or won't.
i wish they could.
that's all.
I know how ya feel Zone, I wish they would too.
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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Matthew 10:35
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

i want my family to know Him and be saved:(
but they can't hear.
I hear ya sis.

Mt 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them.]