What does "predestined according to foreknowledge" in the sense of Romans 8:28-30 mean?

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Does God predestine the elect based on a foresee faith decision, or a distinguishing love?

  • God predestines based on a foreseen faith decision from the foundation of the earth.

    Votes: 5 35.7%
  • God predestines based on a distinguishing love for the person from the foundation of the earth.

    Votes: 8 57.1%
  • Neither of the above (explain)

    Votes: 1 7.1%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    14

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,135
2,689
113
#41
"Election" means that God chooses individuals for salvation.

Predestination is associated with the same teaching.

God chooses individuals for salvation, and decrees that they will, indeed, be saved.

In fact, he causes it to happen. He gives them a heart of flesh that results in their faith and repentance. He takes away their heart of stone, which is why they avoid him and pursue evil and sin as a habitual lifestyle.

I'm not sure why you feel like my word usage is an issue. Is it something related to your free-willer theology? If so, you already know I don't agree with that. It proposes a god who doesn't know the future in detail. I worship the omnipotent God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...and Isaiah too :)

Isaiah 46:9-10 9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
(ESV)
Spoken by a true Calvinist. Quote the verses that contain the actual word “predestined” and we can talk.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
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#42
Nope. I never heard the term until this discussion board. God has stated it in
His word. It will come to pass. There are many things that are not stated in His word.

Election has to do with service. Predestination has to do with the future hope of those in Christ.
It sounds like you are attempting to redefine words to fit some pre-existing doctrines you hold.

Predestination is a general term, whereas election is a specific term. And, in fact, it is more related to salvation than to mission.

I don't suppose you will hold that position, though, because as a free-willer, your fundamental denial is that anyone is chosen for salvation by God. Instead, free-willers will attempt to twist Scripture to ignore this reality. Somehow they always twist it around to claim that they chose God, or that God chose them in response to anticipated faith that they would display, which in essence is teaching that elect is related to their own merit. They were somehow gracious enough to allow God to do his work of salvation in them.

The reality is that God regenerates the person, giving them a heart of flesh to replace their stony impenetrable heart, so that they are ABLE to make a faith and repentance response.

In their limited human perception, they think they were gracious enough to "allow God into their hearts", to use free-willer Sunday school teacher language, but the reality is that God gave them a new nature, a new heart, that made them desire Him...else they would have continued on in their spiritual darkness.

And it is good you are not an open theist, if that is true, because it's a heretical view.

The open theist holds the position that God is reactive to human beings, rather than knowing in advance what will happen in any situation, and in fact, decreeing that it will happen, either passively or actively.

Anyways here's an article to read:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...fference-between-election-and-predestination/

Here's the text, in case the article is deleted someday:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the Difference Between Election and Predestination?
Kevin De Young

I had someone ask me this question recently. My short answer is: in popular usage, not a lot.

The terms election and predestination are often used interchangeably, both referring to God’s gracious decree whereby he chooses some for eternal life. In Romans 8:30 Paul speaks of those whom God has predestined, called, justified, and (in the end) glorified. In 8:33 Paul references “the elect,” apparently a synonym for the predestined ones described a few verses earlier.

A sharp distinction between the two words is not warranted from Scripture, but if there is a distinction to be made, predestination is the general term for God’s sovereign ordaining, while election is the specific term for God choosing us in Christ before the foundation of the world. That is, predestination is the broader category of which election is the smaller subset. Calvin defined predestination as “God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man…Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or to death” (Inst. III.xxi.5). For Calvin, predestination encompasses the entire eternal decree. Election and reprobation, then, represent two different aspects of the decree. The Canons of Dort Article 1 makes the same distinctions.

This delineation is not without merit. The “elect” is always a positive designation in Scripture (e.g., Matt. 24:31; Titus 1:1), suggesting that election implies eternal life (though Rom 9:11 may be an exception to this rule). Predestination, on the other hand, can be used more broadly. Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and people of Israel, did to Jesus what God’s “plan had predestined to take place” (Acts 4:27-28). Indeed, all of our days are written in God’s book before one of them comes to pass (Psalm 139:16 ). Every form of prosperity and affliction comes to us not by chance, but from God’s fatherly hand (Heidelberg Catechism Q/A 27). Or as Augustine put it, “The will of God is the necessity of all things.”

Does this mean we are “predestined” to marry so-and-so or take a certain job? In one sense, looking back at God’s providential care, we can say “Yes, that’s was God’s plan for my life.” And yet this notion of divine superintendence is not meant to undercut personal initiative and responsibility. Everything happens after the counsel of God’s will (Eph. 1:11), but this is no excuse to neglect the use of means, nor is it a reason to think every decision we make is automatically pleasing to God. God’s sovereign unalterable will of decree is not be confused with his violable will of desire.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#44
It’s a specific term in scripture.
I suggest that folks read some solid systematic theologies in order to determine what the two words mean.

And, there isn't a large degree of difference between"predestination" and "election".

For instance, 1 Cor 1:26ff definitely proves that God elects believers to salvation:

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
(ESV)

I have exegeted this passage many times to free-willers, and not a single one of them can reject the Reformed position on this.

1. Individuals are chosen by God.
2. These individuals have negative characteristics, according to worldly measures.
3. These individuals are chosen by God to be a more dramatic representation of his power to save them.
4. These individuals are chosen for SALVATION, and words relating to salvation are mentioned to prove this (v. 30)
5. This election occurs because God wants no man to boast in anything other than Himself. He wants himself glorified, not the alleged superior characteristics of some man who thinks somehow he had some positive characteristic that caused God to choose him.

God is like the star high school athlete, who picks weak specimens for his team, and wins the game anyways because of his prowess. He chooses the obese, clumsy, nearsighted guys to display his glory more clearly.

Free-willer theology is so dishonoring to God. It is really sickening. It is basically glory-robbing.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
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#46
Only those that God knows are predestined to receive the future adoption. In order for God to know you, you must become a son of God. In order to become a son of God one must call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. Once in Christ, God predestines you for the adoption which is the redemption of the body. That’s the final destination of those in Christ.
In other words, you're basically declaring that you are the determining factor in your salvation.

Like I have said, free-willers make themselves the heros of their story.

They will continually twist Scripture in order to steal glory from God.

The essence is: Scripture says that God chooses or elects indviduals to salvation. I fundamentally deny this. Therefore, I must twist the Scriptures around so that I choose God, and not vice versa. Why? This doesn't fit my preconceived idea of fairness. I don't care what the Bible appears to say about this. I will weave together Scriptures in some way in order to deny it.

Why? Because it cannot mean that God is sovereign over all things, including salvation. Why can't it mean that? Because I said so, and God must conform to my expectations of Him.

This is why I am Reformed. I have given up my tendency to define God in terms that are acceptable to me. He doesn't have to conform to my parameters. If Scripture teaches that he elects people to salvation, I accept it. Period.

I don't try to wrangle my way out of it, to make me the hero of my own story.

I know this goes against the popular free-willer churches. Their mentality is to praise the alleged free-will of the man, rather than the power of God unto salvation. Their Sunday School teachers love to pat little boys' and girls' heads and praise them for being gracious enough to allow Christ into their heart, instead of glorifying God.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,957
1,527
113
#47
I suggest that folks read some solid systematic theologies in order to determine what the two words mean.

And, there isn't a large degree of difference between"predestination" and "election".

For instance, 1 Cor 1:26ff definitely proves that God elects believers to salvation:

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
(ESV)

I have exegeted this passage many times to free-willers, and not a single one of them can reject the Reformed position on this.

1. Individuals are chosen by God.
2. These individuals have negative characteristics, according to worldly measures.
3. These individuals are chosen by God to be a more dramatic representation of his power to save them.
4. These individuals are chosen for SALVATION, and words relating to salvation are mentioned to prove this (v. 30)
5. This election occurs because God wants no man to boast in anything other than Himself. He wants himself glorified, not the alleged superior characteristics of some man who thinks somehow he had some positive characteristic that caused God to choose him.

God is like the star high school athlete, who picks weak specimens for his team, and wins the game anyways because of his prowess. He chooses the obese, clumsy, nearsighted guys to display his glory more clearly.

Free-willer theology is so dishonoring to God. It is really sickening. It is basically glory-robbing.
It seems sometimes we forget we have the eternal power of God in these bodies of death. . . not of us .In that way we can hope he will increase as we do decrease in anticipation of our new bodies. Neither male nor female, Jew or Gentile. .

Of that body Jesus said his flesh it profits for nothing. It was a demonstration of the unseen power of the father working with the Son seen to bring salvation to mankind .

Romans informs us of the purpose. . . to display to the world what the letter of the law death could not . . . reveal a living faith. You could call it a wedding invitation to the whole world .That all the work was finished. The good news gospel ressurection gate s open. Many rooms in that Mansion.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,135
2,689
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#48
In other words, you're basically declaring that you are the determining factor in your salvation.

Like I have said, free-willers make themselves the heros of their story.

They will continually twist Scripture in order to steal glory from God.

The essence is: Scripture says that God chooses or elects indviduals to salvation. I fundamentally deny this. Therefore, I must twist the Scriptures around so that I choose God, and not vice versa. Why? This doesn't fit my preconceived idea of fairness. I don't care what the Bible appears to say about this. I will weave together Scriptures in some way in order to deny it.

Why? Because it cannot mean that God is sovereign over all things, including salvation. Why can't it mean that? Because I said so, and God must conform to my expectations of Him.

This is why I am Reformed. I have given up my tendency to define God in terms that are acceptable to me. He doesn't have to conform to my parameters. If Scripture teaches that he elects people to salvation, I accept it. Period.

I don't try to wrangle my way out of it, to make me the hero of my own story.

I know this goes against the popular free-willer churches. Their mentality is to praise the alleged free-will of the man, rather than the power of God unto salvation. Their Sunday School teachers love to pat little boys' and girls' heads and praise them for being gracious enough to allow Christ into their heart, instead of glorifying God.
First off, God predestines those who are already in Christ. The believers destination is certain. They will be conformed to be like Jesus. It’s our future hope.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
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#49
God most certainly does not save any person based upon “a foreseen faith.” Such a belief is a denial of the biblical doctrine of grace (unmerited favor) and causes salvation to be by merit, given because one “chose to believe.”

One on here, @John146 (an avowed open theist) believes God doesn’t even know the future yet holds to this which is contradictory and absurd.

Scripture is quite clear that faith itself is the gift of God; 2 Peter 1:1.

Now, those who deny this truth can begin patting yourselves on the back for what you did to merit salvation. Tell us again, contrary to Scripture, what you did that made God reward you with salvation?

I’ll stick with Scripture and note well 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

Here's a section of a paper I wrote on salvation. it lists a few other Scriptures concerning faith being a specific gift given to the believer.

I find it common, though, that free-willers will claim that God has given all men faith. It is just their choice if they exercise it.

They will quite often quote Romans 12:3, but this use of "all men" is obviously pointing to all men in the fellowship of believers, because the context is related to spiritual gifts within the Church.

However, if you are a free-willer, you don't tend to read in context.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FAITH, REPENTANCE AND CONFESSION

Scripture teaches that we must repent and place our faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Faith and belief are synonymous in Scripture. Salvation is by faith alone (Acts 10:43, 15:9, 16:31, Romans 3:24-25, 10:9, Galatians 2:16), and is not by works (Romans 3:26, 28).

What does repentance and faith mean? Repentance means to change our mind. We turn away from our sinful orientation. Faith means to turn toward Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith describe two sides of the same coin. They describe the same motion. We turn away from our sinful orientation and toward Jesus Christ. These two components are inseparable (Acts 20:21).

View it this way: before salvation, our fundamental orientation is sinful. We embrace sin as a way of life. We don’t care what God has to say about our actions and thoughts. When we place our faith in Christ, we are turning away from this orientation of rejecting God and towards Jesus Christ.

Here’s a good definition of repentance: Repentance, like faith, is an intellectual understanding that that sin is wrong, an emotional approval of the teachings of scripture regarding sin (a sorrow for sin and hatred of it), and a personal decision to turn from it (a renouncing of sin and a decision of the will to forsake it and lead a life of obedience to Christ instead), empowered by the Holy Spirit, which is received after salvation.

Saving faith has three necessary components.

Facts are the first necessary component. We hear certain facts about God, Christ, our sin, the fact that he died for us as a substitution, and that our sins can be forgiven through acceptance of this sacrifice. We learn that we can avoid the wrath of God and condemnation through turning to Jesus Christ and accepting his sacrifice. These facts are called the gospel message.

The second necessary component is agreeing that these facts about the gospel message are true. However, we can know these facts, and agree that they are true, but our faith is still incomplete.

The third necessary component is coming to the point where we actually place our confidence in Christ. We hear the facts of the gospel message; we agree that they are true. We judge that Christ is worthy of our faith, or confidence. This is also called receiving the word in Scripture (Acts 2:41, 8:14). A saving faith involves all three of these components.

If a person knows that he is sinful, and believes that Christ died in his place, he can confess his sins before God, and ask for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to be applied to these sins. This is called confession.

Examples of receiving salvation in Scripture are the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2: 14-41), the Samaritans (Acts 8:4-25), the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26-40), Cornelius’ family (Acts 10), Lydia(Acts 16:14-15), the Philippian jailer (Acts 16:25-34), Crispus and his household (Acts 18:8), and the conversion of the Apostle Paul (Acts 22:6-16), Look for elements of these components within these accounts: hearing the gospel message about Jesus Christ, faith or belief, repentance, and confession.

The amazing thing is that God himself gives us faith (Acts 16:14, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, Acts 3:16) and grants us repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25). Those who are saved have nothing to boast about whatsoever because of this; it is not about human works (Romans 3:20, 27-28, 4:5, 1 Corinthians 1:31, Galatians 2:16). Salvation is God’s work.
When you confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, you are saved. You are forgiven of all of your sins. Your heart is cleansed through faith (Acts 15:9). You have heard the gospel message about Jesus Christ and his death on the cross, and you believe it, and you place your confidence in Jesus Christ for salvation. Your confidence is not in your works, but is in the work of Jesus Christ done on the cross in your behalf.

What does confession mean? Confession means to declare our faith in Christ. We believe with our heart and we confess with our lips in prayer. Confession includes a request for forgiveness. Confession is an act of humility. We are acknowledging our sin before God, and the fact that this sin has earned the wrath and condemnation of God. But, we realize that Jesus died on our behalf as a substitute for us, and we can ask God for that sacrifice to be applied to our sin debt. We receive forgiveness of our sins by God’s grace, which means his unmerited favor.

Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone (Acts 15:11, Ephesians 2:8). Grace means, amongst other things, unmerited favor. Favor goes beyond mere pardon or forgiveness; it means that God is actively for us..he is totally on our side. God’s just wrath against sin has been appeased, and the saved person is no longer under condemnation (Romans 8:1), nor does he ever come under condemnation again (John 5:24, 10:28).
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
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#50
First off, God predestines those who are already in Christ. The believers destination is certain. They will be conformed to be like Jesus. It’s our future hope.
He predestines them to be in Christ, which is basically the same thing as election.

This is where you are trying to derail biblical election and predestination.

Your view is basically the teaching of Karl Barth...corporate election. Karl Barth was an immoral man who denied the full inspiration of Scripture. Additionally, he had a live-in sexual relationship with his secretary, with his own wife living in the same house. He was not qualified to teach God's truths.

In this view, God did not elect specific persons, but only a class. And, you can belong to this class if you choose to. But, you are not specifically elected to salvation.

Election is NOT personal and it is NOT effective under this false, free-willer system.

And you are stealing God's glory from Him. God always accomplishes the purpose that he sets out to do.

And, this involves giving the elect a heart of flesh, to replace the heart of stone that they have as a descendant of Adam.

This is what it means to be in Christ. The person in Christ has a heart of flesh, and the person in Adam has a heart of stone.

How do they get this heart of flesh? God gives it to them. They have nothing to owe their faith and repentance response to, except God's gracious gift of this heart of flesh.

This is the CAUSE of faith and repentance, not the RESULT, as free-willers claim.

As I have said, they dishonor God by their free-willer claims.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,135
2,689
113
#51
Here's a section of a paper I wrote on salvation. it lists a few other Scriptures concerning faith being a specific gift given to the believer.

I find it common, though, that free-willers will claim that God has given all men faith. It is just their choice if they exercise it.

They will quite often quote Romans 12:3, but this use of "all men" is obviously pointing to all men in the fellowship of believers, because the context is related to spiritual gifts within the Church.

However, if you are a free-willer, you don't tend to read in context.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FAITH, REPENTANCE AND CONFESSION

Scripture teaches that we must repent and place our faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Faith and belief are synonymous in Scripture. Salvation is by faith alone (Acts 10:43, 15:9, 16:31, Romans 3:24-25, 10:9, Galatians 2:16), and is not by works (Romans 3:26, 28).

What does repentance and faith mean? Repentance means to change our mind. We turn away from our sinful orientation. Faith means to turn toward Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith describe two sides of the same coin. They describe the same motion. We turn away from our sinful orientation and toward Jesus Christ. These two components are inseparable (Acts 20:21).

View it this way: before salvation, our fundamental orientation is sinful. We embrace sin as a way of life. We don’t care what God has to say about our actions and thoughts. When we place our faith in Christ, we are turning away from this orientation of rejecting God and towards Jesus Christ.

Here’s a good definition of repentance: Repentance, like faith, is an intellectual understanding that that sin is wrong, an emotional approval of the teachings of scripture regarding sin (a sorrow for sin and hatred of it), and a personal decision to turn from it (a renouncing of sin and a decision of the will to forsake it and lead a life of obedience to Christ instead), empowered by the Holy Spirit, which is received after salvation.

Saving faith has three necessary components.

Facts are the first necessary component. We hear certain facts about God, Christ, our sin, the fact that he died for us as a substitution, and that our sins can be forgiven through acceptance of this sacrifice. We learn that we can avoid the wrath of God and condemnation through turning to Jesus Christ and accepting his sacrifice. These facts are called the gospel message.

The second necessary component is agreeing that these facts about the gospel message are true. However, we can know these facts, and agree that they are true, but our faith is still incomplete.

The third necessary component is coming to the point where we actually place our confidence in Christ. We hear the facts of the gospel message; we agree that they are true. We judge that Christ is worthy of our faith, or confidence. This is also called receiving the word in Scripture (Acts 2:41, 8:14). A saving faith involves all three of these components.

If a person knows that he is sinful, and believes that Christ died in his place, he can confess his sins before God, and ask for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to be applied to these sins. This is called confession.

Examples of receiving salvation in Scripture are the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2: 14-41), the Samaritans (Acts 8:4-25), the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26-40), Cornelius’ family (Acts 10), Lydia(Acts 16:14-15), the Philippian jailer (Acts 16:25-34), Crispus and his household (Acts 18:8), and the conversion of the Apostle Paul (Acts 22:6-16), Look for elements of these components within these accounts: hearing the gospel message about Jesus Christ, faith or belief, repentance, and confession.

The amazing thing is that God himself gives us faith (Acts 16:14, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, Acts 3:16) and grants us repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25). Those who are saved have nothing to boast about whatsoever because of this; it is not about human works (Romans 3:20, 27-28, 4:5, 1 Corinthians 1:31, Galatians 2:16). Salvation is God’s work.
When you confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, you are saved. You are forgiven of all of your sins. Your heart is cleansed through faith (Acts 15:9). You have heard the gospel message about Jesus Christ and his death on the cross, and you believe it, and you place your confidence in Jesus Christ for salvation. Your confidence is not in your works, but is in the work of Jesus Christ done on the cross in your behalf.

What does confession mean? Confession means to declare our faith in Christ. We believe with our heart and we confess with our lips in prayer. Confession includes a request for forgiveness. Confession is an act of humility. We are acknowledging our sin before God, and the fact that this sin has earned the wrath and condemnation of God. But, we realize that Jesus died on our behalf as a substitute for us, and we can ask God for that sacrifice to be applied to our sin debt. We receive forgiveness of our sins by God’s grace, which means his unmerited favor.

Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone (Acts 15:11, Ephesians 2:8). Grace means, amongst other things, unmerited favor. Favor goes beyond mere pardon or forgiveness; it means that God is actively for us..he is totally on our side. God’s just wrath against sin has been appeased, and the saved person is no longer under condemnation (Romans 8:1), nor does he ever come under condemnation again (John 5:24, 10:28).
Ok, I’ll start.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That’s not salvation. God already knows them. Those who God already knows, He also did predestination them. For what? To be conformed to the image of Jesus.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Again, that’s not salvation. The adoption is our future hope now we are in Christ. Scripture defines the adoption as the redemption of the body.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption is something we are waiting for, longing for to those who are already saved.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#53
Using the term predestined, show where we are predestined to be in Christ?
Why?

That forces me to assume your categories.

Like I said, there is no meaningful difference between election and predestination.

Predestination is a wider category that encompasses more than just salvation. Election is more specifically related to salvation, but can be used in other contexts too. Such as Christ being elected.

It is obvious he did not need spiritual salvation.

Even if predestination is never used in Scripture to refer to salvation, this still does not prove your point.

First, you exegete 1 Cor 1:26ff in light of your claim that individuals are not elected to salvation. I have exegeted it in terms of Reformed theology. It would be interesting to see how you exegete it in light of free-willer presuppositions.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,135
2,689
113
#54
Why?

That forces me to assume your categories.

Like I said, there is no meaningful difference between election and predestination.

Predestination is a wider category that encompasses more than just salvation. Election is more specifically related to salvation, but can be used in other contexts too. Such as Christ being elected.

It is obvious he did not need spiritual salvation.

Even if predestination is never used in Scripture to refer to salvation, this still does not prove your point.

First, you exegete 1 Cor 1:26ff in light of your claim that individuals are not elected to salvation. I have exegeted it in terms of Reformed theology. It would be interesting to see how you exegete it in light of free-willer presuppositions.
It would be more honest just to admit, there is no such a verse.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#55
It would be more honest just to admit, there is no such a verse.
I haven't even looked, because it doesn't prove your point..

which is basically to deny that God elects individuals to salvation.

And this is a plainly biblical teaching.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,135
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#56
I haven't even looked, because it doesn't prove your point..

which is basically to deny that God elects individuals to salvation.

And this is a plainly biblical teaching.
Again using the term elect. The discussion is predestination not election. Calvin equates the two. That’s not biblical.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#57
Again using the term elect. The discussion is predestination not election. Calvin equates the two. That’s not biblical.
There isn't much difference between the two.

Predestination is a generic term, as it can refer to either persons or events, and is not exclusively referring to persons, or, in the case of ancient Israel, a nation. For example, Christ was predestined to die for the elect.

Notice this Scripture:

Ephesians 1:5 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
(ESV)

Notice that it is "us", the individuals in the Ephesians church, that are predestined.

I suspect that you may believe that it is the adoption that was predestined, and not the persons, but in fact, it is the persons that are predestined TO adoption. The adoption was not predestined, it is the purpose to which the individuals are predestined to.

I know corporate election people try to twist this around because they don't like the clear teachings here.

Read the entire chapter.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,744
1,928
113
#58
Again using the term elect. The discussion is predestination not election. Calvin equates the two. That’s not biblical.
Corrected version has this addition:

And, by extension, this would include all believers.


It would be very problematic to claim otherwise, as you'd have to question every NT letter whether it applies to all believers or just the specific addressees.

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There isn't much difference between the two.

Predestination is a generic term, as it can refer to either persons or events, and is not exclusively referring to persons, or, in the case of ancient Israel, a nation. For example, Christ was predestined to die for the elect.

Notice this Scripture:

Ephesians 1:5 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
(ESV)

Notice that it is "us", the individuals in the Ephesians church, that are predestined. And, by extension, this would include all believers.

I suspect that you may believe that it is the adoption that was predestined, and not the persons, but in fact, it is the persons that are predestined TO adoption. The adoption was not predestined, it is the purpose to which the individuals are predestined to.

I know corporate election people try to twist this around because they don't like the clear teachings here.

Read the entire chapter.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
13,135
2,689
113
#59
Predestination is a generic term, as it can refer to either persons or events, and is not exclusively referring to persons, or, in the case of ancient Israel, a nation. For example, Christ was predestined to die for the elect.
It is a specific term. The destination of the one in Christ has been determined by God. In order for God to predestine a man to his end result, the man must become a son. God must first know the man as one of His sons.